10mm Question?

[BIGBANG]

ok, this isn't a is 10mm really all that thread. It's a real question because I'm very seriously considering a pistol in this caliber, and I want to know.

Do any agencies in America or other parts of the world for that matter still use this as their service caliber?

I mean when looking at its' ballistics and seeing it being comparable to .357 magnum which was carried by police for years why not? If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities? And I don't by the recoil thing because if police carried .357 magnums then would 10mm really recoil more than a .357? I've shot full power .357 loads and I am more accurate and I prefer the recoil to that of my brothers glock 22 in .40. The snap annoys me and I don't shoot it accurately. so why don't more agencies especially smaller ones where they have to supply their own gun go to 10mm?

 

[Telekinesis]

I don't believe any agencies still issue 10mm as a service caliber. While I would love to get a Glock 20, I unfortunately have to wait until I can afford the ammo or the ability to reload for it (reloading is generally frowned upon while living in dorms on campus )

As far as the reasons that the 10mm isn't issued, it is size/length of the round and (I know you're not going to like this but...) the recoil. The size of the round requires that a larger frame/mag be used (about the size of a similar gun chambered for .45 ACP IIRC) and is a bit big for some officers, especially a double stack which is likely to be a department-imposed design requirement. Fit is pretty important in handguns, and I know I wouldn't want to be forced into a gun that was physically too large for my hands. Not saying the 10mm framed guns are giants, just that they're bigger than the 9mm/.40 frames.

And to recoil...
I'm sure the recoil would be fine for most people if they were shooting a large (read: heavy) revolver chambered in 10mm, but the problem is that they'd be shooing a round with comparable power to a .357 in a gun that weighs much less. Felt recoil has almost as much to do with the characteristics of the gun firing the round as it does with the round itself. As you said, you don't like firing a glock in .40 because of the recoil characteristics, now let's add more powder AND a heavier bullet and see if you opinion improves. See where this is going?

The comparison between the two glocks isn't just for the sake of argument. Glock was one of the first pistol manufacturers to really get a good, reliable semi auto to work long term with the 10mm cartridge. IIRC, most semis that were using the 10mm at the time had problems with excessive wear. So a department choosing between 10mm and another cartridge would very likely be choosing between the Glok 20 and another handgun.

All of this just goes to show why the 10mm isn't issued by a federal or state police agency. Personally I like the 10mm and would buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford to shoot it as much as I'd want to. It is a great cartridge, its just not cut out for mass-issue.

 

[303tom]

Yep they all do, that`s all a .40 is a de-powered 10mm !

 

[Loosedhorse]

The FBI still has some MP5/10s; other than that, I know of no agency.

303tom has a good point. If you're looking at the 10 as solely an SD-against-human-attacker gun, it has very little over the .40. If you're looking at it as a possible hunting/woods protection gun, it does have advantages.

Or if you're interested in "non-conventional" SD rounds (rounds which have a big energy dump and/or fragment), the 10 offers possibilities there.

If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities?

You may want to look at the .40 offerings in 155, 135 and 125 gr before deciding you need a 10. Also, consider .357 SIG.

Yes, I own a 10 and prefer it...but there are reasonable alternatives to consider.

 

[ATLDave]

Yes, there are police agencies that use 10mm. Among others, I'm told that the Danish national police force on Greenland have 10mm's because they have to deal with the threat of polar bears!

There are 10mm sub-fora on arfcom and glocktalk, which would be a good place to get more detailed answers.

As for the utility of the round, I find it enjoyable to shoot. It definitely thumps reasonably hard in recoil, but it's hardly unmanageable. Even my wife enjoys shooting our full-size, steel-framed 10mm handgun. Many of the loads you find retail are basically .40 loads, but the cartridge gives you some significant additional space at the top of the spectrum. If you want lower recoil, find loads that track .40. If you want more velocity, or more weight without sacrificing velocity, you can get it.

To me, the only real downside is the relatively high price of the ammo. There's no cheap surplus or LE-reject stuff floating around, like there can be with the mainline "service calibers."

Is it overkill for a 2-legged threat? Probably. But I'd say the same thing about anything past a 9mm JHP, and that doesn't stop a good many shooters from wanting to carry (or agencies from issuing) .40, .45, .357 sig, etc. It is somewhat reassuring to know that, if the 10mm you're using isn't enough, it probably wasn't a handgun-grade problem to begin with!

 

[Remllez]

I think most of the problem with the 10 was recoil/follow up shooting as well as grip size. If you can afford to shoot a 10 then I say go for it! The Glock 20 is a very good choice and will put a hurt on whatever you shoot with it. Like you said the ballistics are hard to argue with but hand loading is much preferred to the neutered ammo company choices available at your LGS.

 

[Ankeny]

I have had three 10's. A Smith revolver, a Colt Delta Elite, and a Glock 20. They are very difficult to shoot well (as in fast and accurately) with full power loads. If possible, shoot one before you buy.

 

[loadedround]

I have to jump into this discussion since I was fortunate enough to purchase one of the first Colt Delta Elites(10mm) that were available in my area. I have put several thousands of rounds through it since the mid 1980's and would consider it my favorite semi auto. When I bought this pistol there was little reloading data available, no new brass, bullets, or loading dies. I fired many boxes of Hornady factory loads at 12.00 for a pk/20 to collect brass. In my opinion the 10mm kicks any harder than 45 ACP hard ball ammo. Most of my reloads are with hard cast bullets loaded at medium velocity for practice and plinking and JHP's for business use. The 10mm round is a handloader's dream and you can load it down to equal a 40 S&W or up to approaching the 41 Mag. I just recently bought another Delta Elite in SS but have not yet had a chance to shoot it. BTW, I have never had a bit of trouble with my Colt Delta Elite, but I do change the recoil springs every 500 to 600 rounds.

 

[Dueling1911s]

great trail gun caliber. i have a delta elite myself, had a glock 20 back in college

only way to afford the ammo is to reload. a box of fmjs go about 30 bucks a box when the stars align. i can reload them for about 8.50 a box.

 

[Kachok]

I would absolutly love to have a 10mm high cap handgun, I am not recoil shy and I handload, unfortunetly I have small hands so I will probably never find one that fits me well.

 

[montgomery381]

I have a commission with a small rural county sheriff's office. When deputies could choose what weapon to carry most carried something chambered in a .40 or 9mm. I think that was because that was just what was common. For the ones that were more into guns wanted more power 1911's were what you saw. And to them, for an auto, the 45 is the man stopper. The 10mm is definitely the best for stopping power. I would say agencies don't issue it because: 1) the ammo is more expnensive, 2) the frame of the guns chambered in them are larger. 3) there is a difference in recoil. When .357 were commonly issued there were not near as many women LEO's so the recoil wasn't as much of an issue. Also the recoil of a .357 seems like less because they were fired out of a lot heavier gun. As for the size of the frame I have heard a lot of women and some guys complain about the size of the Glock 22 grip. It would be hard for women and some guys to grip the large Glock 20. But in the end I would say cost and maybe a fear of liability keep agencies from using it. And for those officers in small agencies who provide their own they probably aren't getting paid much so again cost probably is a factor.

That was a lot of typing for such a short answer.

 

[Loosedhorse]

unfortunetly I have small hands so I will probably never find one that fits me well.

The Delta Elite has the slimmest grip; if a standard 1911 frame works for you, I think you'd be fine with a Delta (despite the price!)

(If a 1911 doesn't fit you, I don't think the Smith frame will be better).

 

[Kachok]

Love 1911s, hate the single stack mags. At the range I would take a 1911 over anything but when it all hits the fan give me my 16 rounds of 40 S&W anyday. Besides I don't like exposed hammers on CCW if there were ever a time for them to get caught on something that would be the time for it. I heard they re-designed the Glocks grip, mabey I will check out the new 20 to see if it fits, but I am not holding my breath on it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Understood. I don't have any experience with the newer Glock frames.

I've heard of folks doing a simple barrel and spring swap on ParaOrdnance 16.40s to get a "16.10"--but I've also hear that ParaOrdnance is pretty hit or miss these days.

 

[Kachok]

What is the deal with Para and Kimber? They used to be benchmark weapons, now all I hear is complaining about them, my hunting buddy just bought a $1100 Kimber and it broke on the first trip to the range. In the rifle world Remington has gone downhill HARD. It is getting difficult to trust the premium brands nowadays. If I were to buy a 1911 now I would only trust Springfield or Colt.

 

[ATLDave]

EAA/Tanfoglio also offers most of their pistols in 10mm. I got the Elite Match in 10mm and it has been a great gun (about 1000 rounds through it). ~15 round capacity (14 in some, 16 or 17 if you get an aftermarket extended aluminum butt plate). Mine's a SAO, but you can get DA/SA if you prefer. Fits my hand great. (I take a men's M or ML cadet size glove for golf if that helps re: hand size.)

 

[bomberbill357]

I've got a S&W 1026 for sale cheap on Gunbroker. Just couldn't afford to feed it. By the way I have medium to small hands and don't have a problem shooting anything. It's all in the grip strength

 

[Kachok]

I don't have an issue holding larger grip guns, but I perfer something that fits my hand, I think anyone would. The 10mm is an overkill for stopping power, but I like overkill lots of it if I can get it. I hardly notice the kick of 40s and 45s so I highly doubt I would have any issue shooting a 10mm. I could in theory do just fine with my 9mm, I am an exceptional shot with a pistol, I qualified with a perfect score when in Texas State LE, but having a little extra umph never hurts.

 

[harrygunner]

The max OAL of the 10mm is the same as the .45ACP. So grips on 10mm guns need not be larger than those of .45 ACP handguns.

Recoil is subjective and I find stout 10mm to be about the same as .45ACP +P.

To the OP, I copied an old (2005) list of LE agencies that may have used 10mm handguns. If I get the OK from THR, I'll list them.

 

[surjimmy]

Can't say enough good about the 10mm. This is my Delta Elite Custom by Chuck Warner. It is my main carry.

 

[Bobson]

Nice piece, Jimmy.

Also, not to ninja this thread, but I'm confused by this:

If you're looking at the 10 as solely an SD-against-human-attacker gun, it has very little over the .40. If you're looking at it as a possible hunting/woods protection gun, it does have advantages.

It just seems to contradict itself. How can 10mm be advantageous over .40S&W against 4-legged predators, but the two be roughly equal against 2-legged predators? Doesn't just about everyone swear by the old adage, carry the most powerful gun you're proficient with?

 

[pisc1024]

ok, this isn't a is 10mm really all that thread. It's a real question because I'm very seriously considering a pistol in this caliber, and I want to know.

Do any agencies in America or other parts of the world for that matter still use this as their service caliber?

I mean when looking at its' ballistics and seeing it being comparable to .357 magnum which was carried by police for years why not? If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities? And I don't by the recoil thing because if police carried .357 magnums then would 10mm really recoil more than a .357? I've shot full power .357 loads and I am more accurate and I prefer the recoil to that of my brothers glock 22 in .40. The snap annoys me and I don't shoot it accurately. so why don't more agencies especially smaller ones where they have to supply their own gun go to 10mm?

The 10 is a very capable round, it provides you with a lot of options for loading. The fact is though, that there is only one bullet designed for the 10mm velocities the Hornady 200 gr. All other loadings are bullets designed for the .40 cal. When you push bullets beyond their design parameters bad things tend to happen. I own a 10mm and like it a lot, however it is just a gun that I enjoy taking out and shooting or letting friends shoot it for fun nothing more. Just my .02

 

[harrygunner]

Gary Napolitano hosted a list of LE agencies that used 10mm handguns on http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm But that site is no longer up. I happened to have saved that web page.

Caveat, the page was dated 2005.

Albuquerque N.M.P.D.
Aleppo Township Pennsylvania P.D.
Anniston, Alabama P.D.
Stevenson, Alabama P.D.
Alpena County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Baytown P.D. Texas
Bellingham PD Bellingham Wa.
Billings Montana Sheriff's Office
Billings Montana Police Department
Brick Township New Jersey
Buffalo Minnesota P.D.
Clay County S.O. Florida
Colorado State Patrol
Falkville Alabama
FBI
Immediate Reaction Special Group SWAT Mexico City
Kentucky State Police
Kentucky Dept. of Probation and Parole
Kalispell, Montana P.D.
Lander Wyoming
Loveland Colorodo P.D.
Maricopa County Sherrifs Office
New Castle P.D
Normandy Missouri P.D.
Pawnee County, Oklahoma Sheriffs Office
Pocatello, Idaho P.D.
Pueblo P.D. Pueblo Colorado
Raleigh N.C.P.D.
Sonoma County Sheriff's Department
Spokane County Sheriff Washington State
St. Bernard P.D. St. Bernard, Ohio
St. John Indiana P.D.
U.S Customs Service
U.S Marshals
Weimar Texas P.D

 

[harrygunner]

Hornady's 180gr XTP .400 bullet also fits in the range of 10mm speeds. They rate that bullet for speeds within 700 - 1500 ft/s.

I carry a Commander length 1911 in 10mm. I wanted to take advantage of its performance. It's comparable to a .357 Mag from a 4" revolver.

I constantly see self-contradictory statements on Internet that go something like: 'A .357 Mag is a great self defense round but the 10mm is best for hunting.' I believe the 10mm is good for every situation a .357 Mag is good for. But, the 10 comes with platforms that are easier to shoot and hold more ammo.

 

[Loosedhorse]

When you push bullets beyond their design parameters bad things tend to happen.

Like what? Fragmentation on striking target is not necessarily undesirable. Jacket rips before getting to target would be, but I haven't heard of that outside of over-spun .223s. And neither sounds very likely with, for example, an FMJ bullet.

If nothing else, there is the Tac-XP family: 155, 140, and 125--as these are all-copper: hard to imagine what the "bad thing" will be when these are used as intended.

And perusing the manufacturer's websites, most bullets seem to be labeled .40/10. I guess the manufacturer's could be lying about their bullets being suitable for 10mm, which is what you seem to imply.