Why Learn Sight Shooting first?

[Sweatnbullets]

Seriously man, you better learn to point shoot!

That's classic skyguy.

 

[shooter503]

We are getting into the pointless "I am the only one that's right" mode again.

We just about agreed that there is a "continuum" of skills. Nobody says that everyone's "continuum" is the same. If CTD is good with his night sights that is great. Personally I hate the darn things, too slow to be useful, but if they work for him who am I to object?

The truth is that there will never be an effective way to prove who is right in this discussion. However, the discussion has value in that it should provide food for thought for anyone following the thread.

JavaMan- You could try the Galco VIP202 holster for the H&K. It is more of a carry purse than a proper holster but it allows more discrete carry than the plastic jobs. Trouble is it does not locate on the belt at the right angle.

When "practice" amounts to firing a couple dozen rounds annually under abstract conditions and lax time limits, no technique will reliably be applied properly & successfully under duress.

I assure you police qualification timing is certainly not lax - people's jobs depend on it.

 

[SkyGuy]

We are getting into the pointless "I am the only one that's right" mode again.
We just about agreed that there is a "continuum" of skills.

Of course there's a "continuum".

But pity the student that is never taught the tremendous differences between day and night shooting....or never taught the physiological and mental repurcussions of stress or never taught that their eyes are not up to the task at night.

We don't need priggish critiques of others' best intended advice. We need good info.

So, please read the info below again. If you see something that's incorrect, correct it.

In the real world, old eyes don't see sights, corrective lenses/bi & tri-focals don't focus the sights on target, darkness and low-light drastically diminish central vision.

But most of all when your heart rate 'easily' exceeds 145bpm, even with great eyes, you will lose the ability to focus on your sights. Darkness radically diminishes one's visual ability. Cognition starts fading.

Your visual acuity will deteriorate along with your complex motor skills which control your dexterity and trigger control. You'll lose your depth perception and most of your hearing and you'll obsess on the threat, not your sights, and you'll suffer tunnel vision.
.

 

[crofrog]

But most of all when your heart rate 'easily' exceeds 145bpm, even with great eyes, you will lose the ability to focus on your sights. Darkness radically diminishes one's visual ability. Cognition starts fading.

I can easily disapprove this statement. I got on a treadmill did some sprints. My heart rate monitor was reading 178bpm when I hoped off. Insured the pistol was clear and shaking like a leaf from the anarobic activity focuses easily on the front sight and dry fired. After dry firing the one shot i checked my heart rate again and it was still at 165.

 

[shooter503]

My comment was not directed at any individual and I apologize if it appeared that way. To clarify, what I meant was that if you have an opinion do not just say "this is my way and it is the best way", actually justify your comments so that others can follow the logic. The thread is wandering somewhat but there is nothing wrong in that.

My frustration is that we get a lot of claims on this forum that cannot be proven, I am not questioning them, I just wish we could get useful information from them. I have a fairly fully instrumented range where turning targets, shot timers and video cameras can all be linked together but all this tells me is what the person on the range can do. Of course, it tells me nothing about what other forum contributors can do. In addition, I am well aware that just because a person can produce a certain performance on the range it does not remotely predict what their performance would be in action.

To me the actual training of a person in firing a weapon reasonably well is emerging as the least complicated part of self defence training. We tend to concentrate on bulls-eyes when there are actually many more skills that are required to produce an effective self defence shooter.

I do not think that anyone in the firearms training business has effectively found a way to simulate likely combat situations, even the million dollar military "sim cities" are pretty poor. Ironically, Fairbarn and Sykes's range in Shanghai in 1920 still sems to be the best simulation to date.

 

[SkyGuy]

Quote:
But most of all when your heart rate 'easily' exceeds 145bpm, even with great eyes, you will lose the ability to focus on your sights. Darkness radically diminishes one's visual ability. Cognition starts fading.

I can easily disapprove this statement.

I got on a treadmill did some sprints. My heart rate monitor was reading 178bpm when I hoped off. Insured the pistol was clear and shaking like a leaf from the anarobic activity focuses easily on the front sight and dry fired. After dry firing the one shot i checked my heart rate again and it was still at 165.

Just so you know........aerobic or anaerobic exercise induced heart rate increases do 'not' simulate hormone/chemical induced heart rate increases. (the fight or flight response or SNS overload)

Fight or flight survival stress triggers the sympathetic nervous system responses.......which release adrenaline, hormones and chemicals that contribute to all the physical and mental reactions I referred to earlier.

Train accordingly.
.

 

[7677]

Sighted shooting provides positive feedback that you are, indeed, about to shoot what you think you're going to shoot. Deadly force is not a place for guesses and assumptions.

And yes, trained shooters DO speak of clearly seeing their sights during self-defense shootings.

Yes it does, how about kicking the training wheels off your gun for a few minutes and try to use you sights at the distance at which most gun fights occurr against another person using sims or airsoft. I'm sorry but this needs to be said...close quarters combat is no place to be wasting time looking for your sights. Try this simple test at arms distance on "go" attempt to draw and use your sights. I bet you'll get a wake up call on how positive your feedback is when he deflects your gun. Next, on "go" draw against another person and you can only shoot once you line up your sights and the other person get to shot when they reach the half hip position and you will quickly see that he will get the first and second shot on you before you get to your sights.

Yes people do speak of seeing their sights. As the distances increases so does the need for the use of sights. If you read the case studies of people that claimed they used their sights, you will find they generally fall into the following groups, distances greater then 5 yards, behind cover, took the first shot.

 

[Sweatnbullets]

Try this simple test at arms distance on "go" attempt to draw and use your sights. I bet you'll get a wake up call on how positive your feedback is when he deflects your gun. Next, on "go" draw against another person and you can only shoot once you line up your sights and the other person get to shot when they reach the half hip position and you will quickly see that he will get the first and second shot on you before you get to your sights.

7677 set up both of these scenarios in Tucson last year in FOF. The results proved the need for some point shooting skills and the results were unmistakable.


The head to head comparison between flash sight picture and elbow up/elbow down were most enlightening. The hot shooter of the course was my training partner, the guy is just plain fast. I have trained with him in at least 35 courses and have never beaten him head to head. He got "flash sight picture" and I got elbow up/elbow down. I beat him three or four times in a row and put two or three hits on him before he could shoot me once.

Now this was a skill that I had only about thiry minutes of training with. He had been an IPSC competitior and tactical training junkie for over nine years and had used "flash sight picture" extensively.

Proof was in the pudding!