Why Learn Sight Shooting first?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ok, guys, I'm still trying to see the advantage of point shooting over taking the shot as the sights or top of the gun align with the target.

Is the argument that since point shooting can be performed with the pistol lower, it takes less time than bringing the gun to the line of sight?

I recall the photo of Applegate point shooting that clearly shows him aligning the axis of the gun.

Here's more info at Bob Tuley.com
 
That would be my assessment. You can shoot faster by simply clearing your holster, locking your elbow into your side and shooting. That is not what "point shooting" encompasses though. I guess I'm most impressed with the hip shooting because I never thought it that accurate, but it is. XB I know the struggles you are having with some of this discussion I too had some doubts. I was blessed at an early age though with people who could point shoot and demonstrated and taught me with a rifle. I applied some techniqes later to pistol and was able to hit golf ball sized objects out of the air. The course I took last spring sort of brought it all together. What amazed me was how quick the people picked it up. Most shot better groups than I.

We all know how important getting off the ball fast is to sports, well getting out of the holster onto target is just as important in self defense. I have had many shooting courses from Bullseye to SWAT. I would have to rank the course I took off of Brownie right at the top for technique, time spent, and tools that apply to everyday situations. What it boiled down to is how fast and accurate can you shoot when you have to. If you feel you have that covered then fine if not then you seek more knowledge.
Jim
 
Xavier,

Point shooting is not THE way to shoot, it is ONE WAY to shoot. It is part of an aiming style continuum that stretches from "point and hope" all the way to telescopic sights and, I suppose, guided weapons.

The technique used will depend on range, size of the target and time available. The argument for point shooting is that it fast and "adequately" accurate. If the opportunity allows, use one of the other techniques - the most appropriate one that you are proficient with.

It is purely a personal preference that I put ability in point shooting as the primary skill but I think my arguments are logical.

1. Most shooting incidents take place at very close range. Latest law enforcement figures claim that in 75% of shooting incidents the shooters are less than 10 feet apart. Quite clearly, at these ranges the premium is on speed and "adequate" accuracy is all that is needed. A sighted shot may not even be practical. A point shooter can fire from the hip or even "across the chest" if it is necessary to fend off an attacker while the gun comes into play.

2. Point shooting, including what I consider its extensions such as "hidden gun" work when the shooter is not able to use a proper stance and a two handed grip. For example, the need to take a shot from the driver's seat of a car through the driver's window at a target in front of the car. Not only will you have no stance, no ability to sight and a one handed grip you will probably be using your weak hand. Point shooting trains you to function in these situations.

Would sighted shots be better in these circumstances if possible. Yes, but 1/4 second time saved in shooting more than makes up for 1/4 inch of accuracy lost in aiming.

Did other shooters use other techniques? Yes, but we do not know what they would have done under any particular set of circumstances and present day shooting may actually take place under circumstances that were unusual in the past. I have documented information that, in 1978, police departments were still using a course of fire where the MINIMUM range that they fired from was 21 feet !!!! (I do not know when this was changed).

Is your "aligned gun" method valid? Certainly it is but as you have worked out for yourself "if the need is speed" there is a better technique that you can use.

Point shooting is faster, period.
 
503 you are spot on about the PPC courses in the late 70's. 7 yard line was as close as you got, hell we were not even alowed to use speed loaders at the time to qualify. Worse yet the course shot out to 50 yards!

My concern today is with all the people with CCW permits. They certainly do not receive enough training in the permit course so what do they do? Buy books and practice from that? Read the aurguments on the web of the pro's and cons of the various "best way's" to defend yourself?

You have to take an educated guess and choose a path. In my opinion the two most important techniques to learn is drawing your weapon and shooting. Sights, no sights thats up to you, but get comfortable with drawing and shooting. Take care
Jim
 
I think it is worth mentioning that point shooting might be required in any direction, angled up or down, at waist level (or below; picture shooting down a steep staircase for example), or right up at eye level looking over the piece. The goal is to learn the intersection of the line of sight and the POI by the feel of the piece. When the piece is high enough to be clearly in view the intersection of the two elements can be readily observed out to a modest distance.

Key issue IMO is the chosen piece; selecting one, at least to begin with, having identical grip geometry etc. Trying to become proficient shifting alternately from a Ruger MK I/II/III .22 pistol, to 1911, to a S&W revolver is not going to be fruitful for most people very early on.

The handling, balance and point qualities of the piece are important - the "feel" that optimizes pointability. IMO these qualities are far more important in a defensive handgun than the difference between "the .357 and the .44 Special" etc for unsighted or sighted fire. For me the optimum pistols are the FN/Browning High Power and the 1911. In a revolver, a K-frame S&W with a 3" to 4" barrel (or similar Colt etc).

-------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
LAK we certainly have the same taste in handguns.:) You have a good point with using the same pistol and getting used to it. I use a Kimber CDP and have their 22 conversion for it. Makes a handy muti purpose tool. K frames are IMO the handiest revolver to point i have a slew of them some collectors and some shooters. I liked the older straight barrel (no underlug) better for carrying and plinking.
Jim
 
Key issue IMO is the chosen piece; selecting one, at least to begin with, having identical grip geometry etc.

That issue has come up in classes in the past. I think some guns are more conducive than others in that regard, but only in the sense that some have terrible grip angles which afford terrible initial results more than the majority handguns that are perfectly acceptable and will work just fine for this type of skill.

Usually when it comes up in class, I'll just ask someone to "hand me a gun", and then demonstrate the same proficiency with that piece as my own. Even if I have shot a similiar piece before or even owned the same model, the various grips of wood and their thichness, synthetics, rubber, etc have a way of changing things on the same model.

My favorites would include the 1911, the BHP, most glocks, Smith K frames with [ particularly with 4 inch barrels for me which I started with shooting from the hip in 1973 ], the D frame colts, and the list gets pretty lengthy from there. Most practiced for me at the moment would be the K frame, 1911, g17's.

I've seen some incredibly fast sighted fire shooter using FSP in competitions as I'm sure others have. Their rounds downrange counts are usually very high, and their dedication to "getting there" long in the tooth.

The results we are seeing students make at the ITFTS classes, and which are reiterated by the students reviews for the most part, is that for them, in the place and time of experience, they become faster, and some very much faster, at putting rds on threat in one day or a couple of days over a weekend. The average shooter who carries a gun on the streets just plain gets faster with hits on threats.

I've seen very proficient fsp shooters get 30%+ faster, both from quick kill hip and from just below line of sight using threat focus skills. I've also seen shooters with little real time on the handguns who, given the time, could make good hits when they took enough time [ that time being way too slow to respond appropriately in a crisis situation of SD with a handgun ] get a lot faster. In both ends of the scale, the students confidence level in their own ability was increased exponentially so that they knew they could draw and fire accurately without having to "verify" the sights in any way.

The skills can be imparted, but one of the most important aspects of training students in threat focused skills is the increased confidence levels in their ability to point the gun and land rds where they need to go on demand without taking any time to verify the sights. Becoming one with their weapon of choice. Again, in a day or two.

The point should be made that when time is of the esssence or you die, you need to have the skills and the confidence to put rds on threats without hesitation. There are techniques that are faster in this regard and they can be learned in short time frames.

One can take the time to develop their fsp [ some form of sights verification ] skills, hone them over longer periods of time till they have that same speed by streadily reducing their sight verification times as well.

Both sighted fire and threat focused skills work. One may need both at some time depending on many sets of circumstances they could run into. My own thoughts run toward using the most proficient technique to end the problem presented. There's no right or wrong way, but their is the most expeditious way.

Most students have skills in the form of sights verification when they get to class. We give them the other side of the equation and end up really building their confidence in their abilities. Many then go on to report their sighted skills are better as well after the training. There are a few reasons for that, but I won't expound on them here and now.

Brownie
 
With no instructor, where to start?

If I could propose a gun proficiency scale of 1) never touched and gun, 2) touched a gun at a friends house, 3) novice gun owner, 4) amateur gun owner, 5) skilled gun owner, 6) expert gun owner, I'd put myself at level 4. I'm one of those people that has taken CWP course, but am not satisfied with my current proficiency. As far as sighted shooting, I know how to get a proper sight picture, I know stances, I know to squeeze the trigger, and I know how to take a breath, let some out and hold while shooting. I could stand to improve my sighted shooting, but with my main purpose being self defense I want to explore point shooting.

My current plan is to take the target holder that I built out to a remote local (the local indoor range doesn't seem condusive to learning point shooting) with some large targets.

This weekend, I plan to start very close range and slowly move out as I become comfortable with a given distance. I have a Walther .22 and an H&K USP .40 S&W. I plan to use the .22 first.

I'm open to suggestions on techniques, courses, and instructors (in the Charleston, SC area) that you all can provide.

Michael
 
javacodeman:

Read the two links below, and get back to me if you have questions about anything afterwards.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31

Eyesac;

I haven't tried aspirin out of the air with the rifle Quick Kill yet, still working on getting over the 80% mark consistantly with nickels :eek:

Right now I'm about 65-70% on the nickels and 80-90% on the quarters on ariels, about 96% on the ground targets smaller than aspirin.:D

No sights on the bbgun being used

Brownie
 
Brownie you are my hero! About a month ago I bought an airsoft pistol and tried a little in my garage, but didn't get very far. I got to the point where I could hit like a coffee can lid pretty reliably, but haven't fooled around with it since then. My question is what position are you firing from (initially), or where should a beginner such as myself be firing from to learn. I remember a site called Pointshooting.com or something had a Military manual called "quick kill" but I can't find any kind of comprehensive written instruction on learning point shooting, is there anything like that you know of?
 
Eyesac;

Nothing hero about the ariel skills really;)

The ariel shooting is with bbgun rifles, not pistols. If you can find the book written in 1959 by Mike Jennings called "Instinct shooting", that will be the best source for the Quick Kill system McDaniel developed in the mid 50's.

Jennings was a friend of McDaniel and wrote the book with full input from McDaniel. It's the rfile system the USArmy adopted in the late 60's.

If you can get the online USArmy Quick Kill pdf TT 23-71-1 training manual, thats going to give you a lot of information as well. If you can't find it, email me and I'll send it to you.

JMusic from this site also is quite the ariel shooter with pistols and rifles, lets hope he joins in and gives his input as well here. I've shot with Jim and he can hit ariels with regularity.

I suggest you read this thread about another guy named Measures who has his own vid and book on ariels as well. It gives a link to where to buy both in the thread. I have both and his system is close to Quick Kill, takes a little longer to learn, but it is invaluable as a resource where this subject is concerned.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224

I'm in discussions with people in Knoxville to put on the first rifle Quick Kill course in the spring of 07 if you are interested in learning the pure form of QK. I was taught the pure skills by McDaniel himself in 81.

If you need more information, let me know.

Brownie
 
Last edited:
Eyesac I can send you a copy of Daisy's Quick Skill program which covers their method and gives some history of the army's quick kill method. PM me if you are interested. Daisy supplied the bb guns to the army for this training. Shooting Ariels is not difficult but does take practice. When I was younger I would shoot 3 bricks a week through my Browning semi auto at just moving targets. If I was to take a 2 month break it would take me a day or two to get back to where I was. Now it takes me much longer to get back in tune.

Start with something large, pop can or simular then work your way down. I believe you need to become proficient with a rifle first before considering a pistol. Pistol ariel shooting is much more difficult. Get comfy with the rifle then apply the same techniques with the pistol and you should do well. It is a fun shooting sport and certainly makes you a better shooter overall. Take care
Jim
 
Thanks brownie and Sweatnbullets. I just need to practice up now. Brownie, how do you carry a pistol? Bullet chambered? Safety on? SA or DA? If I'm going to carry concealed I want to be safe, but also want to be able to quickly fire if necessary.
 
I'm carrying glocks presently [ g26, g36 or g17 are the current favorites ]. Chamber loaded, holsters that cover the trigger guard.

Either the g17 in Milt Sparks IWC Versa Max 2, or summer special.

The g26/g36 usually in my back pocket with thin leather rough side out pocket holsters.

When I carry a gov model it is in the Versa Max 2, cocked and locked on loaded chamber.

In all the modes of carry, the weapons are "hot" and can be accessed one handed and fired as soon as they clear the holsters. If the glock trigger is protected/covered by a holster, they are as safe as any pistol on the market. What I find a real benefit is the fact that the glock is totally amibidextrous as well.

Brownie
 
Javacodeman,

How you carry your pistol depends very greatly on what model it is. Perhaps you had better tell us that so that you can get the best advice.

In a previous post you mention a Walther 22 and a H&K USP 40 S&W. I assume you intend to carry the H&K, this would be fine with a round chambered and the hammer released forward. Then you would only have to deal with the fairly light trigger pull. I had trouble finding a holster I liked for the H&K since I am not into hard plastic holsters which seem to be the most numerous offerings. H&K makes several variations of its models and your pistol may be configured differently to mine. In the end we never really got on together so we parted ways - just one of those things.
 
Sighted shooting provides positive feedback that you are, indeed, about to shoot what you think you're going to shoot. Deadly force is not a place for guesses and assumptions.

And yes, trained shooters DO speak of clearly seeing their sights during self-defense shootings.
 
Sighted shooting works great on a shooting range or during daylight but a dark back alley or the black area behind a 7/11 at night is not going to help your sighted shooting much. Sometimes only point shooting is possible.
 
Quote:
I assume you intend to carry the H&K, this would be fine with a round chambered and the hammer released forward. Then you would only have to deal with the fairly light trigger pull. I had trouble finding a holster I liked for the H&K

Yes, I intend to carry the H&K. As I am an amateur, I do not have experience with several different models, but I love my H&K. The only thing, like you Shooter, is that I don't like my holster. It's a Blackhawk, and if I were carrying open, it would be great. But I'm afraid that I may have some difficulty concealing it. (I haven't been able to carry yet as I'm waiting for the paperwork turn around.)
 
Sighted shooting provides positive feedback that you are, indeed, about to shoot what you think you're going to shoot. Deadly force is not a place for guesses and assumptions.

If that were true, the hit ratio of the law enforcement community would not in the "under 30%" range on the streets for the last 4 decades would it?:D

Sighted shooting, in reality, doesn't guarantee hits if past training and history is to be believed.

Brownie
 
but a dark back alley or the black area behind a 7/11 at night is not going to help your sighted shooting much.
Two words: night sights. Put 'em on my Glock, works nicely in all lighting and lack thereof.

You still need positive feedback to make sure you are going to shoot what you think you are going to shoot. Missing is easy if you don't make sure you're not going to.

Yes, there is a place for non-sighted shooting - usually at can't-miss near-contact ranges. Learn sighted shooting first - it's the right thing to do, tactically and morally.
 
If that were true, the hit ratio of the law enforcement community would not in the "under 30%" range on the streets for the last 4 decades would it?
When "practice" amounts to firing a couple dozen rounds annually under abstract conditions and lax time limits, no technique will reliably be applied properly & successfully under duress.

I'd bet that "over 70%" range of "sighted fire failures" didn't use sighted fire.

Don't attribute failure to a system when that system is not applied.
 
When "practice" amounts to firing a couple dozen rounds annually under abstract conditions and lax time limits, no technique will reliably be applied properly & successfully under duress.

I'd bet that "over 70%" range of "sighted fire failures" didn't use sighted fire.


I'd bet they tried though, per their sighted fire only training. There in is the rub, when you can't use them properly under stress of battle you should be taught to use a gun without relying on them for those instances.

And students who have taken professional training under the guidance of one who can impart the skills of not relying on the sights are making hits faster and more reliably than sighted fire skills. Their increases in speed on threat without use of the sights and their hit ratios out to 21 and 30 feet are as good or better [ usually around 85-90% ] than their skills when they got to the classes.

The reviews point to their not using the sights [ they are taped off so they can't use them ] for two days and their success rates are well above average. To a student, they are making reliable hits at distances that are far from "bad breath", and more importantly, they are shown they can repeat those skills at anytime they choose to, and faster than their previous sighted fire skills allowed.

It's a myth that you can't reliably hit past bad breath distances, and it is those who do not possess the skills that allow them to do so that make such claims of non reliability at anything past bad breath.

Brownie
 
Two words: night sights. Put 'em on my Glock, works nicely in all lighting and lack thereof.
In the real world, old eyes don't see sights, corrective lenses/bi & tri-focals don't focus the sights on target, darkness and low-light drastically diminish central vision.

But most of all when your heart rate 'easily' exceeds 145bpm, even with great eyes, you will lose the ability to focus on your sights. Darkness radically diminishes one's visual ability. Cognition starts fading.

Your visual acuity will deteriorate along with your complex motor skills which control your dexterity and trigger control. You'll lose your depth perception and most of your hearing and you'll obsess on the threat, not your sights, and you'll suffer tunnel vision.

Seriously man, you better learn to point shoot!
.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top