Why Learn Sight Shooting first?

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Perhaps one reason "sighted" shooting is taught prior to "point and shoot" is that we ask our new shooters to do a lot of dry firing. There is no feedback from dry firing with "point and shoot", while using the sights gives the feedback needed to develop proper trigger operation.
 
Is good marksmanship enough? Not if you're scared to death, or, as self-defense expert Massad Ayoob says in his training course, "almost paralyzed with fear."159

"You drew the gun because you perceived yourself to be in danger, and that means body alarm reaction or even fight or flight reflex have kicked into gear: you're stronger and faster and meaner, but you're also clumsy and jumpy as hell. A tense person who is startled or thrown off balance tends to respond with convulsive muscular movements, and this could make your gun go off. At best, this is embarrassing and can give your position away; at worst, you can shoot an innocent person accidentally.181

Fight or Flight. The survival reflex is a profound and complex physiological event designed to prepare the animal within to either fight or flee for its life:
When fear explodes inside of you, your sympathetic nervous system instantly dumps a variety of natural drugs and hormones into your body to cause a high arousal state known as fear. You are literally under the influence of these natural chemicals, so your body operates differently, just as it would under the influence of a chemical you deliberately ingested.164

These chemically induced changes take effect immediately and last for a "significant" period of time.165 They have specific implications for one's ability to effectively use a handgun for self-defense.

One common effect is distortion of perceived time, called tachypsychia.166"An event that takes milliseconds may seem like minutes as everyone and everything appears to move in slow motion."167
Other physical changes typically include pounding heart, muscle tension, trembling, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, tingling sensations, the urge to urinate and defecate,168 and hyperventilation and fainting in some cases.169
Several of these effects specifically, directly, and dramatically degrade the handgun owner's ability to use his weapon. For example, temporary paralysis—"momentarily freezing as your body is desperately trying to catch up to the sudden awareness that your life is in danger."170

Tunnel Vision, Temporary Blindness, and Auditory Exclusion ("tunnel hearing"). Other physiological changes impact not only the ability of the handgun shooter, but the safety of innocent bystanders: tunnel vision, temporary blindness, and auditory exclusion (also known as "tunnel hearing"). According to expert Ayoob, these are a result of a primeval decision in the cortex of the brain that "there is only one thing that concerns us now, destroying or escaping the thing that is attempting to destroy us....The eyes still see and the ears still hear, but the cortex of the brain is screening out anything that is extraneous."187

Tunnel vision is a loss of peripheral vision. For example: "Your field of vision may narrow to mere inches and you may lose your depth perception and your ability to see what is behind the threat."188 Thus, tunnel vision makes the shooter concentrate so much on the perceived danger that he may not see other "bad guys" on his flanks or innocent bystanders behind or near to the person he is concentrating on.189

Other experts warn that, as part of this effect, the shooter may lose the ability to see or focus on the gun's front sight, which is obviously bad news for the owner who trained to shoot using those sights.190

Hysterical or temporary blindness, amaurosis fugax, is another serious visual effect that, according to Ayoob, "seems to happen to people who are not prepared for violence and who are not trained for it," whom he calls "lightweight amateurs." This visual "whiteout" occurs because "the mind has seen something so terrifying, it refuses to look at it any longer."191

"Tunnel hearing" is a distortion the most common manifestation of which is diminished sound, "which can range from total loss to sounds seemingly muffled and distant."192"

Impaired Thinking. One's very "ability to think in a rational, creative, and reflective manner" is likely to be reduced or perhaps eliminated under mortal threat conditions.182 This "will generally cause a massive block of the brain's ability to process thought functions."183 The inability to process thought functions rationally and reflectively will have an obvious effect on one's ability to clearly sort out whether the situation is appropriate for the use of lethal force.

At the practical level, impaired thinking is also likely to block the ability of the handgun owner to deal with such likely problems as a jammed pistol. "Most people in this situation will not be able to determine much more than the fact that the weapon is not working....Adrenaline rush will probably preclude the ability to analyze, maybe even recognize the malfunction."185 In short: "The more complex a motor skill behavior is, the more likely it is to be forgotten or bungled under extreme stress."186
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We read everyday in real life encounters, and every month in the NRA magazine of regular joe citizens/people who are suddenly attacked, and defend themselves with guns who apparently missed the report they are supposed to be ineffective and stricken with inability for these reasons:

Hysterical or temporary blindness, amaurosis fugax, is another serious visual effect that, according to Ayoob, "seems to happen to people who are not prepared for violence and who are not trained for it

"You drew the gun because you perceived yourself to be in danger, and that means body alarm reaction or even fight or flight reflex have kicked into gear: you're stronger and faster and meaner, but you're also clumsy and jumpy as hell

Impaired Thinking. One's very "ability to think in a rational, creative, and reflective manner" is likely to be reduced or perhaps eliminated under mortal threat conditions

The inability to process thought functions rationally and reflectively will have an obvious effect on one's ability to clearly sort out whether the situation is appropriate for the use of lethal force.

Where do these average joe citizen homeowners/shop keepers/and the like with nary any or NO real training get off thinking they can survive life and death encounters; robberies, home invasions and the like, stressed from being physically assaulted, tied up and then miraculously actually defend themselves and win against these people?

Geesh, the nerve of some of these people we read about apparently not suffering these effects enough to make them ineffective at not only surviving but winning the confrontations, and in the middle of the night roused from bed with sleep bunnies still blurring their vision no less.:rolleyes:

Brownie
 
Loss of Fine Motor Control. Among the temporary consequences of the adrenaline dump are sudden surge in gross muscle strength, increase in speed associated with increased muscle strength, and insensitivity to pain.

These changes enhance basic animal fighting skills, so they may be useful in a hand-to-hand brawl. "The fight or flight response has not changed since caveman days, when people fought with their bare hands or with clubs and rocks," writes Chris Bird.171 But, expert Ayoob advises, "there is a downside to this....you will experience gross, severe, dramatic, cataclysmic loss of fine motor coordination. Dexterity falls through your ass....The hands will begin to tremble."172

This is a serious problem because "the firing of the gun is dexterity intensive. You can't change that."173 In short, the use of fine motor skills for tasks like firing handguns are not part of the body's survival design: "Our bodies have not yet adapted to the possibility that fighting may involve a delicate trigger squeeze."174 Loss of fine motor control also means that reloading, also a high-dexterity skill, especially in revolvers, becomes much more difficult.175

Experts advise that it is possible to compensate for the loss of dexterity by diligent and proper training. "However," writes expert Duane Thomas, "the sad truth is that very few people who carry a gun on a daily basis, in either the police or civilian sectors, have committed themselves to that level of training."176

The necessary training requires more than time on a well-lighted, comfortable shooting range and a few hours leafing through "self-defense technique" articles in handgun fan magazines. It means, according to Ayoob, learning carefully thought through ways of shooting the handgun that "minimize the degree to which you are dependent upon fine motor coordination as opposed to gross muscle coordination."177

It may surprise some handgun enthusiasts that the "combat" pistol techniques they have learned in popular "practical pistol" or "combat shooting" courses may get them killed in real life.

Ayoob explains that "it becomes almost criminally negligent to teach officers and law abiding armed citizens to defend themselves with combat shooting techniques...that rely heavily on several dexterity-dependent coordinates being accomplished perfectly to index the weapon with the target under stress."178 The "specific dexterity prescriptions" called for in some of these training regimens—applying precise amounts of pressure with each hand within a specific two-hand combat grip—go out the window "when your body goes out of control with superhuman strength and a total loss of dexterity....It's bull****."179
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Experts advise that it is possible to compensate for the loss of dexterity by diligent and proper training.

The average citizen who successfully defends themselves while attacked doesn't seem to be too concerned with what the experts have to say about training.

applying precise amounts of pressure with each hand within a specific two-hand combat grip—go out the window "when your body goes out of control with superhuman strength and a total loss of dexterity.

This is the type of training one would see used by the competition crowd.

This also fits perfectly with the training provided by ITFTS in our courses. One handed training/reactive shooting, convulsive grip [ discussed earlier in this thread ], body mechanics using gross motor skills, etc are a big part of the training materials. This duplicates what F/A/S found and trained officers in, who worked the streets of Shangai and were involved with numerous shoot outs over many years with great success.

One of the specific techniques in the course called qk hip makes good use of gross motor skills, gross body response facing the threat, the croutch and threat focus at the same time.

I would think if applying precise amounts of pressure with each hand within a specific two-hand combat grip—go out the window "when your body goes out of control with superhuman strength and a total loss of dexterity. is true, the fist fire system which relies heavily on these skills may need to be revisited.

Experts advise that it is possible to compensate for the loss of dexterity by diligent and proper training.

Training decreases the affects on dexterity and reserch in this field also has shown conclusively that other autonomic responses can be decreased through proper training.

Brownie
 
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This thread has had some great thoughts by many on the subject, I would suggest the mods make sure this one does not degrade like others and stays on topic as well,

Unless this:

Is good marksmanship enough? Not if you're scared to death, or, as self-defense expert Massad Ayoob says in his training course, "almost paralyzed with fear."159

"You drew the gun because you perceived yourself to be in danger, and that means body alarm reaction or even fight or flight reflex have kicked into gear: you're stronger and faster and meaner, but you're also clumsy and jumpy as hell. A tense person who is startled or thrown off balance tends to respond with convulsive muscular movements, and this could make your gun go off. At best, this is embarrassing and can give your position away; at worst, you can shoot an innocent person accidentally.181

Fight or Flight. The survival reflex is a profound and complex physiological event designed to prepare the animal within to either fight or flee for its life:
When fear explodes inside of you, your sympathetic nervous system instantly dumps a variety of natural drugs and hormones into your body to cause a high arousal state known as fear. You are literally under the influence of these natural chemicals, so your body operates differently, just as it would under the influence of a chemical you deliberately ingested.164

These chemically induced changes take effect immediately and last for a "significant" period of time.165 They have specific implications for one's ability to effectively use a handgun for self-defense.

One common effect is distortion of perceived time, called tachypsychia.166"An event that takes milliseconds may seem like minutes as everyone and everything appears to move in slow motion."167
Other physical changes typically include pounding heart, muscle tension, trembling, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, tingling sensations, the urge to urinate and defecate,168 and hyperventilation and fainting in some cases.169
Several of these effects specifically, directly, and dramatically degrade the handgun owner's ability to use his weapon. For example, temporary paralysis—"momentarily freezing as your body is desperately trying to catch up to the sudden awareness that your life is in danger."170

Tunnel Vision, Temporary Blindness, and Auditory Exclusion ("tunnel hearing"). Other physiological changes impact not only the ability of the handgun shooter, but the safety of innocent bystanders: tunnel vision, temporary blindness, and auditory exclusion (also known as "tunnel hearing"). According to expert Ayoob, these are a result of a primeval decision in the cortex of the brain that "there is only one thing that concerns us now, destroying or escaping the thing that is attempting to destroy us....The eyes still see and the ears still hear, but the cortex of the brain is screening out anything that is extraneous."187

Tunnel vision is a loss of peripheral vision. For example: "Your field of vision may narrow to mere inches and you may lose your depth perception and your ability to see what is behind the threat."188 Thus, tunnel vision makes the shooter concentrate so much on the perceived danger that he may not see other "bad guys" on his flanks or innocent bystanders behind or near to the person he is concentrating on.189

Other experts warn that, as part of this effect, the shooter may lose the ability to see or focus on the gun's front sight, which is obviously bad news for the owner who trained to shoot using those sights.190

Hysterical or temporary blindness, amaurosis fugax, is another serious visual effect that, according to Ayoob, "seems to happen to people who are not prepared for violence and who are not trained for it," whom he calls "lightweight amateurs." This visual "whiteout" occurs because "the mind has seen something so terrifying, it refuses to look at it any longer."191

"Tunnel hearing" is a distortion the most common manifestation of which is diminished sound, "which can range from total loss to sounds seemingly muffled and distant."192"

Impaired Thinking. One's very "ability to think in a rational, creative, and reflective manner" is likely to be reduced or perhaps eliminated under mortal threat conditions.182 This "will generally cause a massive block of the brain's ability to process thought functions."183 The inability to process thought functions rationally and reflectively will have an obvious effect on one's ability to clearly sort out whether the situation is appropriate for the use of lethal force.

At the practical level, impaired thinking is also likely to block the ability of the handgun owner to deal with such likely problems as a jammed pistol. "Most people in this situation will not be able to determine much more than the fact that the weapon is not working....Adrenaline rush will probably preclude the ability to analyze, maybe even recognize the malfunction."185 In short: "The more complex a motor skill behavior is, the more likely it is to be forgotten or bungled under extreme stress."186

has something to do with the thread title and discussion somehow, which I don't see at the moment.


Brownie
 
Aside from things like tunnel vision, I think that in lay terms most of the manifestations that seriously inhibit spontaneous, immediate effective defense are those of basic fear and panic. Mental paralysis preventing effective spontaneous and immediate physical action.

The most significant factor IMO is the difference between getting taken by complete surprize - as opposed to spotting a possible threat, which is then observed transitioning into an immediate threat to aggressively active attack or assault.

Even if there is a very short period of observation before the transition, the defender has potentially had enough time for the natural will to survive begin and become proactive as opposed to reactive. Thus the most effective defense at that stage is inherently offensive and aggressive in nature.

--------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
This thread has had some great thoughts by many on the subject, I would suggest the mods make sure this one does not degrade like others and stays on topic as well.
Click to expand...
I agree. Leave Mas Ayoob out of the discussion. He is a member here. He can, and will, join in if he chooses. Refer to the forum rules regarding this if need be. Only the participants can keep the thread on target and prevent it from degrading. Thread drift is OK, highjacking is not. Concentrate on the argument, not straw men, or personal attacks, OK?

FWIW I tried Shooter 503's obscured sight drill yesterday. I was shootng my usual 1911, a modified Colt Compact. Using sighted fire I am able to shoot consistent cloverleafs with it at 30 feet. I am very familiar with the gun. I built it. It fits me.

I ran a paper plate out to 15 feet and stood on one side of the stall while wrapping my right arm and the gun around the wall to shoot at the plate. The results were miserable. The plate eluded all lead flying at it. I ran the plate in to 10 feet and after a couple of tries was able to hit it a couple of times. Curious as to where my lead was flying, I hung a LAP-1 silhouette up. I tried the drill again at 15 feet. I kept everything on the silhouette, but I was shooting low left from where I believed I was. What this told me was that I still have a tendency to milk the grip which I subconciously correct through sighted or what I will now call "aligned*" fire. Thanks for the learning experience Shooter 503.

*Aligned fire: using the slide of the pistol or barrel/sight rib of a revolver to quickly and roughly align the firearm with a target.
 
My belief is you resort in times of trouble to your training. Poor training or lack there of may lock someones reactions but I have not witnessed or experienced this tunnel vision loss of facilties thing.

Take hunting for instance, (in my opinion a great training tool). At the flush of your first grouse hunt you may very well have trouble getting the safety of your gun let alone shooting. Take that same individual after 25 hunts and he is hitting them with the whole wad. The difference? Experience and training. Startle responce events can be overcome to respond instinctively in a positive way. It takes practice and confidence in your abilities.
Jim
 
We read everyday in real life encounters, and every month in the NRA magazine of regular joe citizens/people who are suddenly attacked, and defend themselves with guns who apparently missed the report they are supposed to be ineffective and stricken with inability for these reasons
Click to expand...
There's always the survival instinct. Powerful stuff. Do or Die!
We had a 73 year old woman shoot a home invader 3 times in the chest. She was 'point shooting/instinctual shooting' and she didn't miss.

But the excerpt outlining the many physiological/psychological effects of SNS overload/fight or flight doesn't necessarily mean that all those things will happen or happen consciously.
Of course heart rates and breathing accelerate and gross motor skills take over, etc. It's the real deal and not la-de-da game playing on a range.
It can be fast and scary and maybe deadly.

Most people won't wet their pants or go blind from SNS overload, but nearly everyone will fixate on the threat, will have tunnel vision, will crouch, will push their weapon at the threat and will shoot with a heavy trigger. I strongly believe that is 'the' way to train. The basic skills of point shooting, movement, cover, etc should become second nature through training.
(I have a few pet techniques like sit-awareness, early draw, laser sights that will help me to mitigate SNS overload....especially in low light.)

The more one trains properly to react to SNS encounters, the better the chance of a controlled response.
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Xavier,

I think you are probably imaging a technique problem that you may not have (milking). Think of the mechanics of what is happening. I bet you made the shot from a lower arm position than you normally use. Your muscles are used to holding your pistol parallel to the ground in a higher aiming position. The same muscles held the pistol parallel to the ground but the pistol started off lower down = lower impact point. As for left/right, your muscles are not used to forcing the pistol to fire across your body., usually it fires from in front of your body. Practice and re-educate the muscles.

You did the right thing in changing to a larger target. Point shooting muscle control is learned from visual feedback. The ultimate goal is to train the muscles so that the target can be confidantly hit without that feedback.

This exercise is not easy, it requires much practice. Why do you think I suggested it. :evil: :evil: :evil: :rolleyes: ;)
 
well, I tried a little point shooting the other day...

I used a non-refillable water jug sitting on a stump for a target, from maybe 10 or 12 feet away. Didn't have a "blind" to keep me from watching my hand, but I did try hard to just look at the target and ignore my hand.

First shot was way low (hit the stump) though it still might have been a "hit" on a human target had I been aiming for the chest. Still without watching my hand or gun, I adjusted my "aim" and actually managed to start getting hits on the rather large target. Amazingly a number of them were actually pretty close to dead center :)

It does seem as though with my past efforts, watching my hand and gun in peripheral vision was actually messing me up (thanks, brownie)

BTW, I'm using a single action .22 for this practice because it is cheap. I'll have to keep it up and see how it goes...
 
Very few shots in point shooting go excessively high.

As both Xavier and Tallpine noted you must be able to mark your shots to correct and establish muscle memory. That is why you should practice on a large target initially. If I remember correctly Fairbairn and Sykes recommended an 8 foot square target at something like 5 feet for initial training and there are probably no more "been there, done that" instructors than these two people.

The trick is to progress from the visual feedback to an unconcious ability to line up the pistol consistently. This is really a matter of continuing practice. It may involve occasionally going back to big targets.

Tallpine, I too train with a 22 SA semi. It keeps the noise down for the neighbours and it is cheap to run. Everything about the this gun, a Unique Model 5, is quite similar to my Sig P230SL, except the DA first shot, so I can pretty much do the same with the Sig as I can the Unique. I find I cannot point shoot certain guns. This is my personal problem. I just accept it.
 
You want to get your point shooting muscle memory on the fast track?

Get a lasergrip sight....and practice. It's cutting edge.

You can make every correction in your form before a shot is fired! Once you've got that thoroughly covered, start with shots and see the results.
You don't have to look at anything but the target and your muscle memory starts out on the correct path. Given time and good practice you will hit what you focus on (with or without).

Other methods work too, but this is the fast track.

....and keep in mind that in the real deal, you will fixate on the threat, will have tunnel vision, will crouch, will push your weapon at the threat and you will shoot with a heavy trigger.
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"Hidden gun" shooting

Xavier,
Just for you and me but Skyguy can take a peek if he wants to. Nothing special, no previous practice for this, 22 makes it easy, about 12 feet but camera angle makes judgement difficult. Shooter is also doing the camera work. Needs Windows media player.

http://www.dropshots.com/day.php?userid=170053&cdate=20060903&ctime=112532

Brownie will probably point out the technique errors and recommend a course. He He !
 
Not bad 503 not bad at all. That is the way I use to point shoot prior to taking Brownie's course. Now I lock my upper arm into my side and shoot. Just a trifle bit faster. Last night I was showing my wife the technique with my Kimber with the 22 conversion on. I was shooting at a IDPA target at 15 feet with a 3" orange circle, in the center a black dot. Two shots and it looked like I had missed the entire target. Upon closer examination both shots had hit the center black dot. Point shooting is for real, and you don't need any gimmicks to learn it. What does help is someone with simular or better skills to shoot with and critique.
Jim
 
That is the way I use to point shoot prior to taking Brownie's course
Click to expand...

Dagnamit !

I knew he would get to me somehow. I didn't think he would hire a hit man!

Jim, the clip is not claimed to be a great performance, thank heavens. That is not "point shooting" as such but "hidden gun" shooting as I discussed with Xavier. The point is that you cannot see the gun at all and the gun is held away from the body because the barrier is an obstruction between you and the gun (head/body on left side of barrier, gun on right side of barrier). Obviously, because of the barrier, the gun can only be fired one handed and with no stance. There may be limited tactical reasons to shoot like this one day but it is a good confidence building exercise.
 
Wasn't meant as criticism at all. As I said I used that technique to full extension for years. You can shoot more accurately and at a higher rate of speed with your elbow locked. One week prior to taking the course I argued you were better off to extend. I also stated the accuracy would not be as great. Well I ate those words. That is the benefit of shooting with like minded people, exchange of idea's. I was taught by some very good point shooters back in the late 60's early 70's. Look up Lucky McDaniels who trained Brownie and see the pedigree he has. Lucky taught some very prestiges people. When Brownie and I met we had alot to talk about and had a ball shooting together. Were all on the same side man keep up the good work.
Jim

By the way anyone interested in an article on point shooting sponsered by Daisy drop me a PM and I will forward.
 
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