Why no bull barrels in IDPA?

[tetchaje1]

I can understand concerns about gaming and the extra weight adding an unfair advantage for non-bull-barrel users, but I have to ask why bull barrels aren't allowed when they are becoming more and more popular on defensive 1911-pattern weapons.

Case in point: The Springfield Ultra Compact. This gun was designed from the ground up as a defense weapon to be carried concealed. It has a bull barrel with a heavy cone taper. The one that I owned briefly shot well enough, though it was rather jumpy in the hands (I sold it because it was rather like vanilla to me... I wanted to get something more exotic.)

I am going to be buying an ramped, bull-barrelled STI here in the next few days and I will most likely be carrying this gun regularly. If I am carrying it regularly, I'd like to be able to shoot IDPA with it, but by the rules of the club, my scores won't count. The gun doesn't feel any heavier to me than the other 1911's that I own.

To me, the bull barrel is merely a different type of lock-up, and an evolution of the 1911 design. SIGs\HKs\Glocks\etc. use a modified Browning lock-up that uses the camming action of the barrel lugs and the slide to get a tight fit. CZs don't use a bushing and are legal even though they have barrel lugs similar to the 1911 on top of the barrel.

So what gives here?

 

[John Forsyth]

Per the IDPA LGB, page 12:
INCLUSIVE list of permitted modifications: (If it's not on this list, it can't be used in Defensive Pistol competition.)

•Factory installed cone style barrels are permitted on pistols with a barrel length of 4.2†or less.

Per the rules, you may use a bull barrel, provided the pistol has a barrel less than that of a Commander. Lots of people shooting 4in Kimbers with bull barrels in IDPA. It was felt by the BoD of IDPA that allowing a 5in bull barrelled gun would be an unfair advantage. What about putting in a tungsten guide? Would that be ok too?

With that said, the rules are the rules. I am still waiting on the why 10mm and .400CorBon went to ESP.

Your club is following the rules. They can give you your score, they just will not post it with the other scores because your equipment is not legal. They are not saying you can not shoot it.

Mods, how about moving this one to competition.

 

[tetchaje1]

If this gets moved to the Competition Section, that is fine by me.

The STI I am going to be purchasing is a 5" model. Is there really that much weight difference to say that it gives an unfair advantage? I can see a ban on tungsten guide rods because they are for gaming-purposes only. Adding weight to the guide rod brings down the muzzle for faster follow-ups. However, I am arguing that a 5" bull is an evolution of the 1911 design, and defensive pistols with bull barrels are readily available on the market.

I suppose that I could shoot my STI on non-IDPA shoots and another one of my 1911 on IDPA-sanctioned shoots...

 

[Jim Watson]

When IDPA rules were written in 1996, bull barrels were rather expensive custom installations that they were trying to avoid in the "level playing field" image. The factory 5" guns they come on now are still not "popularly priced." A heavy barrel really does slow and soften the cycle of the gun, while a W guide rod just adds weight.

 

[c_yeager]

If your just shooting to be proficent with your carry gun why does it matter if your scores get reported? You'll still get the practice.

 

[tetchaje1]

True, c_yeager. Perhaps that is the competitive side of me speaking there. I like to see where I rank with everybody else. However, you are right that it really doesn't matter whether or not my scores get reported if I am keeping my skills up with my carry weapon.

I'd still like to see the rules changed, though.

 

[Sean Smith]

The >4" bull barrel rule will change about the time 10mm gets back in CDP, also known as "never."

I am still waiting on the why 10mm and .400CorBon went to ESP.

Bill Wilson doesn't sell 10mm or .400 Cor-Bon guns.

 

[tetchaje1]

So does that mean that I am double-screwed because the 1911 that I was planning on shooting in lieu of the STI is chambered for 10mm?!?

 

[Sean Smith]

So does that mean that I am double-screwed because the 1911 that I was planning on shooting in lieu of the STI is chambered for 10mm?!?

Yes. You have to shoot 10mm in ESP, and shoot against much softer-recoiling calibers like 9x19 and light-loaded .38 Super.

It sounds like you didn't buy your guns with IDPA in mind. A 10mm would be fine for USPSA Limited or Limited-10 however.

What caliber is the STI, anyway?

 

[Jeeper]

The main thing with IDPA rules is to try and knock out USPSA guns from the ranks. This is the goal even if there is no "tactical" or "defensive" reason for it. It is like when people say that ISPC is and equipment race and IDPA isnt. The dollar amount of the winning ESP and CDP guns are all over 2K. They cant really get rid of the bull barrell thing because then you could basically just use a USPSA limited gun in IDPA with no mods other than to the magwell.

 

[Sean Smith]

A single-stack .45 with a bushing barrel and magwell could shoot in CDP with an 8 round mag and Limited-10 with a long 10-round mag without problems. Really, I don't think there is a rule against shooting a widebody STI in CDP as long as it meets the other requirements (no bull barrel, no long dustcover) and is only loaded to 8 rounds of .45 ACP. Then you could download it to 10 for Limited-10 and use full-cap mags for Limited.

 

[tetchaje1]

Sean Smith,
You are right that I don't really pay attention to IDPA when I'm buying my guns. I buy them because I want them.

I have been shooting a USP Compact or my SIG P239, but I like the speed of the 1911 format. It just doesn't seem right that 10mm is in the same class as the 9x19... Perhaps they are banking on people only shooting FBI-Lite loads...

Oh, the gun has both 40Super and 45ACP barrels.

 

[faustulus]

Perhaps they are banking on people only shooting FBI-Lite loads

They (Bill Wilson) wants to make sure no one shoots in his division except for the .45 1911. I am willing to bet that when (if) the new rule book comes out the DA guns (and maybe the widebodies) will be kicked out of his club.

 

[Sean Smith]

Well, FBI-lite loads shouldn't matter, since you still have to meet the IDPA-specificed Power Factor to shoot in CDP. So there is really no rational basis for sticking 10mm in ESP.

 

[45auto]

Overall, I think the CDP rules are a good thing. Perception is important with a level playing field.

All you would need is the "winners" shooting a bull bbl or a 10mm, 40 and the "race" is on. Would it really matter for 90% of the shooters...no I don't think so. But the "perception" would be that you need one to win.

When 70-100,000 1911 type guns are sold each year and probably 90 % are 45 ACP and great portion of those are 5" bushing guns, why allow "minor" variations to potentially dominate? Now, you can go to any gun shop and buy the right 1911 and equipment and compete.
Those "minor" variations will cost you a lot more money and time, to find one, and they generally don't reflect the buying publics choice of firearms.

Look at IPSC open and limited divisions: larger, heavier and longer guns with smaller calibers while the buying public has gone to smaller, lighter guns with larger calibers. There is a reason IPSC has a production division.

 

[Sean Smith]

Perception is important with a level playing field.

Especially if you get to tailor the rules to fit what you sell and exclude what you don't.

Of course, claiming that 10mm and .400 Cor-Bon make for a level playing field against 9x19 and .38 Super requires some kind of definition of "level" that I've never heard of before.

why allow "minor" variations to potentially dominate?

You mean like the $2,000+ guns that actually win at CDP?

 

[Archer]

Especially if you get to tailor the rules to fit what you sell and exclude what you don't.

Hmm. Lesseee... (thumbs through Wilson catalog...)

TSG Compact... not CDP legal. Tactical Elite... ditto. SDS... nope. CQB with rail... nope.

Gosh, an awful lot... in fact most... of Wilson's high-end guns can't be used for IDPA CDP. I guess he better get to work on those rules, huh ??

 

[Sean Smith]

Try reading the rules, Archer. Almost all the guns you listed are IDPA legal.

•Factory installed cone style barrels are permitted on pistols with a barrel length of 4.2†or less.

The only gun that doesn't meet that criteria is the Tactical Elite. The only other Wilson that doesn't meet IDPA requirements is the new CQB rail model, which is meant to be sold to SWAT folks and the like (says so right on the Wilson site). Now, what percent of their business do you think is made up of $3,000 TSG's?

 

[Jim Watson]

Wilsons are not at all common on the ranges where I shoot IDPA, more Baers in the high priced spread.

But there are a lot of posts on the Net that sound like Socialists accusing Wilson of wanting to make a profit. How dare he?

 

[Sean Smith]

Actually, I find it amusing more than anything else.

 

[Archer]

But there are a lot of posts on the Net that sound like Socialists accusing Wilson of wanting to make a profit. How dare he?

Precisely, Jim.

 

[Slowhand]

Tet- I shoot my Wilson TE in my local club match. Sometimes they rib me that it's banned, but I get scored with everyone else, nobody cares. The way I look at it, IDPA is built around carry guns, and I carry that TE a fair amount. So, although the gun is technically illegal, and I certainly wouldn't attempt to shoot it at a major match, I feel like I'm operating within the spirit of the rules. Plus, I want to see how well I do with it. Frankly, the weighted barrel isn't THAT much of an advantage. It does soften the recoil, but it also slows the slide down, so the gun doesn't cycle as crisply. You don't get something for nothing. I've had good and bad runs with it.

Frankly, I feel that shooting my TE with factory 230 grain hardball out of my leather carry holster is WAY more within the spirit of the rules than a guy shooting a Glock 34 with downloaded 9mm, a F/O front sight, and a 2# trigger out of a Bladetech, even though he is technically not "cheating".

 

[John Forsyth]

With respect to Bill W. setting the rules around what he sells, I do not see that many WC guns used in IDPA. I see more Baer's than WC's. Do I shoot a $2K pistol in IDPA, yes I do. I have also shot my $400 Delta Elite.

 

[45auto]

Given the size of targets and the average distance in IDPA I really believe that the "average" 1911 bought today is all you need to compete at a high level. The $2,000+ single stacks are the choice of the shooter. Someone who shoots a lot and loves the 1911 will be inclined to "upgrade", that's human nature. The good news is you don't have to because the rules are fairly rigid.

You can win a sporting clays shoot with a $800 auto or a $8,000 O/U, your choice...just don't believe it affects the score.

IDPA just looked at IPSC to determine what to do and not to do...it was easy for them.

The 10mm was a tough one because it was...and then it wasn't. Not good, but it never should have been in the category anyway. If you allow the 10mmm, why not the 40, 38 super, 9mm...if they make major. Again look at IPSC for what not to do.

IPSC is more fun though. But if IPSC were run as a business and they had "done it right", there wouldn't have been an IDPA in the first place.

 

[Sean Smith]

Given the size of targets and the average distance in IDPA I really believe that the "average" 1911 bought today is all you need to compete at a high level.

That must be why NOBODY competing at a high level in CDP uses an "average" 1911.

The $2,000+ single stacks are the choice of the shooter.

In this case, the choice of all the winners.

Of course, if my tricked-out $2k+ CDP single stack .45 is also ideal for USPSA Limited-10, how is it that IDPA isn't "gamey" but USPSA is?

If you allow the 10mmm, why not the 40, 38 super, 9mm...if they make major. Again look at IPSC for what not to do.

Why not indeed? I mean, who cares? So somebody wins a match with something other than .45 ACP that makes Major, boo hoo.

Look at USPSA Limited-10, .40 S&W is allowed but .45 ACP is all over the place, including Rob Leatham's single-stack .45 what he kicks almost everyone's butt with.