Why No sSgnificant British or French Auto-loading Pistols?
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vaupet
Member
just some sidenotes:
1) the MA in MAB does not stand for Military Arsenal but for "Manufacture d'Armes de Bayonne" (bayonne arms factory)
I don't know what it stands for in MAS, but it was a cartridge designation, rather than a gun (7x5 x 54 mm MAS, wich was a modern rimmles and straight cartridge designed to avoid problems in full auto weapons)
2) The BHP was developed specifically to take part in a frence army tender, hence the magazine disconnect safety (it didn't make it)
1) the MA in MAB does not stand for Military Arsenal but for "Manufacture d'Armes de Bayonne" (bayonne arms factory)
I don't know what it stands for in MAS, but it was a cartridge designation, rather than a gun (7x5 x 54 mm MAS, wich was a modern rimmles and straight cartridge designed to avoid problems in full auto weapons)
2) The BHP was developed specifically to take part in a frence army tender, hence the magazine disconnect safety (it didn't make it)
The cartridge used by those French pistols was the 7.65×20mm Longue which was developed in the US. As you can see the caliber was not exactly a high power design. It's designed to be similar to the .30 caliber which of course means it's even smaller than a .32 or a .380. Possibly it was more powerful than a .32 I guess. The US abandoned all attempts at making a gun to work with that cartridge but the French did produce one. That was the main gun they used in their military and later in their police departments. The gun used by the French for this cartridge was the Modèle 1935 pistol. It was built for a long time and used by the French particularly in Indochina and in their police departments. But I personally have a problem thinking a gun copied from a US design built to use a US designed cartridge that was pretty anemic at best is hardly a significant French pistol. It never caught on with anyone and there were never that many copies built.
I have a French S.A.C.M. 1935A that I reload for because the ammo, .32 French Longue is obsolete. It is a neat pistol which the Swiss took and used some elements to design the P210.
Nom de Forum
Member
I personally have a problem with sloppy factual error that misleads people, especially when the person making the error has previously made derogatory assertions about national and ethnic character by distortion and omission of historical fact to make an oblique expression of his personal political beliefs.
The Model 1935A is not "a gun copied from a US design". The Model 1935A is a pistol that uses a modification of the Browning breach locking system just like many other original pistol designs. It "caught on" enough for the Swiss to purchase the manufacturing rights in 1937 and use it as the starting point for designing their SIG210 in 1949. So the M1935A is significant for at least that reason. Also of note is that the M1935S may be the first pistol using the Browning breach locking system to omit barrel locking lugs by using a barrel hood lug as the locking surface. If it is not the first it is certainly one of the first. This is of course how many of todays semiautos lock-up (SIG, Glock, etc.) and is a significant design feature. The 1935S also had a hammer blocking thumb safety, a feature not found on Browning designs.
Ultimately the reason why the French did not create more semiauto pistols that would be considered significant was not because they lacked the technical skill to do so but because it was not a weapon design priority.
barnbwt
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"I don't know what it stands for in MAS"
I think the "S" was St. Etienne for that one, right? Like an unholy number of other European manufacturers of everything, gun factories were almost universally named after the towns they were located ("Made in <town>" branding was everything back during the industrial revolution, and even further back than that in history, which is why all the wines and cheeses and foods and breeds are named after townships, rather than people or large regions or made up gibberish like "iPhone" or "corolla")
TCB
I think the "S" was St. Etienne for that one, right? Like an unholy number of other European manufacturers of everything, gun factories were almost universally named after the towns they were located ("Made in <town>" branding was everything back during the industrial revolution, and even further back than that in history, which is why all the wines and cheeses and foods and breeds are named after townships, rather than people or large regions or made up gibberish like "iPhone" or "corolla")
TCB
And people think the French are touchy. All hail the glorious grenouilles who have been perfect since time began. Feel better now. BTW my "distorted" history comes from what I was taught at a major university where I earned a degree in the subject. I know that doesn't make my points valid but how long am I going to have to listen to your tirades? I've tried to ignore you. But your wild allegations (non-specific of course so there's no defending myself) are getting tiresome and I just wanted to defend myself as best I could since you didn't mention any specific fact I supposedly got wrong so there was nothing to correct your thinking on. Oh yeah. I forgot to mention that I'm a historian by trade. Funny how these things slip your mind when wildly illogical attacks are coming your way.
Once again how about we stick to the nom de la grande route (the name high road)? Did I forget to mention I speak a little French? Tres peu et pas bon but some. So pardon moi monsieur and let's get back to la grande route, si vous plait. Bonne idee ne est pas? I'm done with the bickering mon ami.
Oh yeah. That pistol was most certainly a Hi-Power rip off and the designer was as much Swiss as French. And the leap from that pistol to the P210 is staggering. It's not like they are the same pistol or the same quality or anywhere near the same level of engineering.
BTW "Corolla" is a European royal term meaning "little crown". The Japanese named all their sedans after royalty words at the time i.e. Crown, Corona, Corolla, etc. - they are all words from European royalty.
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Nom de Forum
Member
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We are all God’s children and those claiming a superiority based on place of birth will find, upon their death, that the worms consider all humans the same, by taste.
No one man or country invented “the gun”, or “the pistol” though there are many claimants. Human ingenuity is not limited by geography. It turns out that basically nothing dealing with firearm mechanisms or principles is new after 1900. Go through a patent search, everything worth patenting was patented around 1900. I have gone page by page through Army Ordnance Magazine, from the 1920’s to WW2, and in those pages there are lots of firearms patents on mechanisms and features by Europeans. We as a Nation adopted the Oerlikon 20mm and used it through Vietnam. Materials and manufacturing have changed since 1900, since the earliest semi auto pistols, but what you see is a gradual refinement of features and a reduction in the number of operating principles. Pistols today are either blow back, short recoil, and a few are gas operated. Really interesting pistols, such as the Steyr GB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_GB, were short lived. I have a bud who owns one, his won’t function with light loads, so the operating mechanism is not that flexible.
John Browning was an amazing inventor, but the majority of his designs have gone out of production due to manufacturing costs. John Browning was neither the alpha and omega, nor was he the source from which all firearm designs and design principles spring from, he was however, an amazing designer and his designs worked. That more than anything else is the basis for his success, any fool can make highly complicated, heavy, unreliable mechanism, it takes genius to do otherwise. Mr Browning was also quite willing to sell his designs overseas, which makes him much more “worldly” than simple nationalistic stereotypes.
No one man or country invented “the gun”, or “the pistol” though there are many claimants. Human ingenuity is not limited by geography. It turns out that basically nothing dealing with firearm mechanisms or principles is new after 1900. Go through a patent search, everything worth patenting was patented around 1900. I have gone page by page through Army Ordnance Magazine, from the 1920’s to WW2, and in those pages there are lots of firearms patents on mechanisms and features by Europeans. We as a Nation adopted the Oerlikon 20mm and used it through Vietnam. Materials and manufacturing have changed since 1900, since the earliest semi auto pistols, but what you see is a gradual refinement of features and a reduction in the number of operating principles. Pistols today are either blow back, short recoil, and a few are gas operated. Really interesting pistols, such as the Steyr GB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_GB, were short lived. I have a bud who owns one, his won’t function with light loads, so the operating mechanism is not that flexible.
John Browning was an amazing inventor, but the majority of his designs have gone out of production due to manufacturing costs. John Browning was neither the alpha and omega, nor was he the source from which all firearm designs and design principles spring from, he was however, an amazing designer and his designs worked. That more than anything else is the basis for his success, any fool can make highly complicated, heavy, unreliable mechanism, it takes genius to do otherwise. Mr Browning was also quite willing to sell his designs overseas, which makes him much more “worldly” than simple nationalistic stereotypes.
Are you speaking from experience?
Pay no attention to our French Fried Friend. I never did any of the things he said. Notice he doesn't mention anything specific. Trust me, I the farthest thing from a bigot you'll ever meet. First I'm of mixed race myself but then there's the fact that my only son is engaged to a black girl who loves visiting my house because we "make her feel so welcome". This frog has his undies in a wad because I dared mention the history of French colonialism I guess. That's the only thing I can even guess made him go off like this. I gave up trying to reason with him. But I don't want anyone thinking I'm a bigot because Frenchy says so. Yes I am teasing him because of his attitude. He asked for it. But it's getting old and I'm done. I tried joking with him but he doesn't seem to want to mention what he's so upset about or let it go either. He really needs a chill pill or just to lighten up. I never said anything that deserves his level of vitriol. I think what he hates worst is that I won't take his accusations seriously. There's a reason for that. I have a friend that thinks aliens came to earth using pyramids as space ships too. I don't take him seriously either.Nom de Forum
Member
Are you speaking from experience?
For those of you who missed my post #78, a post Cee Zee apparently cannot comprehend, quoted below is further evidence of the bigoted (not racial bigotry) propagandizing (not objective and fair historical analysis) that has Cee Zee has posted. While Cee Zee may be as he claims, a paid historian, he really is a demagogic propagandist. One of the first clues his is a demagogue for those unfamiliar with history is his repeated use of description of events intended play on emotions, derogatory slang to label who he is denigrating, identifying a group as an internal enemy that must be prevented from destroying the country, and dismissing criticism as illogical and trivial.
BTW, the French have suffered greatly from the experience of what happens when a minority of intelligent and educated people use demagogic propaganda, as used by Cee Zee, to gain political power in a neighboring country. No person should refrain from protest of a demagogue because history has clearly shown what can happen when you do.
Cee Zee you claim to not be a bigot because of racial heritage and family members. You obviously do not understand that evidence of bigotry is not limited by what you claim.
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You don't seem to understand that every word I said was true and I wouldn't limit such comments to the French. If you check my posts today you'll find where I blasted the UK for withholding salt from the people of India. You are just way too sensitive pal. Nothing I said had a thing to do with bigotry. That's your paranoia talking.
Let's take just one of your highlighted examples. Do you even know what the French asked Americans to do when we showed up in the first world war? They wanted to use American troops as replacements. The French strategy was clearly losing lives augmented by the arrogance of the aristocracy thinking all those peasants should climb out of the trench and advance on machine gun positions not to mention the chemical weapons. They killed their own people like crazy. They shot them if they didn't leave the trench on orders. And they wanted our soldiers to join their fun. The French aristocracy thought a country like the US should bow to their superior knowledge. Yeah right. Pershing showed them how wrong they were . He refused to assign troops as replacements for the French troops their officers had already had slaughtered.
BTW it wasn't only the French that did those things. The Brits did them too but it was the French that thought American troops would be worthless unless they were commanded by the French which at the time meant the French aristocracy because that's who made up the officers of the French Army.
Dispute the history of French colonialism all you want. It won't change the facts. They took what they wanted from many countries. They brought hard feelings against the west in general all around the world. Just for example, why did the French feel they should be in control of SE Asia? The US fought a war trying to limit the damage of French colonialism and we got blamed for what the French did. We went there to stop the spread of communism and for our efforts we got an almost nightly dose of French protests for our being there. They had too much influence on our own people IMO. Our intentions were more than honorable there but as we have seen since, the French thought socialism wasn't such a bad thing and we all know socialism and communism are two branches of the same Marxist tree.
Pardon me but in America we have this thing about royalty thinking they were born to be our masters. We're still fighting against it in every part of our culture the self appointed elites think it's their right to rule us to benefit themselves. If you don't know that to be true you don't know much about history or current events. Let's not forget that all through the days of the Republic there were those who wanted to go back to a royal system and the socialists of today are little better. They think the privileged few should tell the rest of us how to live. No guns, not knives, no dangerous heritage seeds for pity's sake. And yes the hippie generation opened the doors to Islamic invasion. If you knew anything about Islamic history you would know they've pulled that trick before. That's how Mohammed conquered Mecca and Medina. That privileged class stuff originated in Europe when it comes to socialism and communism and the colonialism that preceded those things and I don't like it. I don't blame just France but they sure had a hand in it. How do you think those ridiculous palaces were built at Versailles and other places? Did the owners of them build them? Or did they take advantage of those colonies and their efforts in order to better the lives of the French? I know the answer. Do you?
BTW I have my problems with my own country too but you seem to think you can guess my motives from a single post or two. That's arrogance friend. You don't know me. The idea you can brand me a bigot is laughable. You're the one with the French name here. I suppose there's nothing jingoistic about your attitude given that name. Yeah right. I could make all sorts of allegations about you and your thinking but I won't. IT ISN'T THE PLACE FOR IT and I'm DONE with you. I will not answer another of your posts or comments on this subject. If you want to talk guns that's fine. But I won't discuss this poppycock with you.
This thread is about to be closed (and I can't blame the mods one bit) in 3, 2, 1...
Let's take just one of your highlighted examples. Do you even know what the French asked Americans to do when we showed up in the first world war? They wanted to use American troops as replacements. The French strategy was clearly losing lives augmented by the arrogance of the aristocracy thinking all those peasants should climb out of the trench and advance on machine gun positions not to mention the chemical weapons. They killed their own people like crazy. They shot them if they didn't leave the trench on orders. And they wanted our soldiers to join their fun. The French aristocracy thought a country like the US should bow to their superior knowledge. Yeah right. Pershing showed them how wrong they were . He refused to assign troops as replacements for the French troops their officers had already had slaughtered.
BTW it wasn't only the French that did those things. The Brits did them too but it was the French that thought American troops would be worthless unless they were commanded by the French which at the time meant the French aristocracy because that's who made up the officers of the French Army.
Dispute the history of French colonialism all you want. It won't change the facts. They took what they wanted from many countries. They brought hard feelings against the west in general all around the world. Just for example, why did the French feel they should be in control of SE Asia? The US fought a war trying to limit the damage of French colonialism and we got blamed for what the French did. We went there to stop the spread of communism and for our efforts we got an almost nightly dose of French protests for our being there. They had too much influence on our own people IMO. Our intentions were more than honorable there but as we have seen since, the French thought socialism wasn't such a bad thing and we all know socialism and communism are two branches of the same Marxist tree.
Pardon me but in America we have this thing about royalty thinking they were born to be our masters. We're still fighting against it in every part of our culture the self appointed elites think it's their right to rule us to benefit themselves. If you don't know that to be true you don't know much about history or current events. Let's not forget that all through the days of the Republic there were those who wanted to go back to a royal system and the socialists of today are little better. They think the privileged few should tell the rest of us how to live. No guns, not knives, no dangerous heritage seeds for pity's sake. And yes the hippie generation opened the doors to Islamic invasion. If you knew anything about Islamic history you would know they've pulled that trick before. That's how Mohammed conquered Mecca and Medina. That privileged class stuff originated in Europe when it comes to socialism and communism and the colonialism that preceded those things and I don't like it. I don't blame just France but they sure had a hand in it. How do you think those ridiculous palaces were built at Versailles and other places? Did the owners of them build them? Or did they take advantage of those colonies and their efforts in order to better the lives of the French? I know the answer. Do you?
BTW I have my problems with my own country too but you seem to think you can guess my motives from a single post or two. That's arrogance friend. You don't know me. The idea you can brand me a bigot is laughable. You're the one with the French name here. I suppose there's nothing jingoistic about your attitude given that name. Yeah right. I could make all sorts of allegations about you and your thinking but I won't. IT ISN'T THE PLACE FOR IT and I'm DONE with you. I will not answer another of your posts or comments on this subject. If you want to talk guns that's fine. But I won't discuss this poppycock with you.
This thread is about to be closed (and I can't blame the mods one bit) in 3, 2, 1...
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Nom de Forum
Member
Cee Zee your arrogance and condescension is enormous. Do you really think I need a lecture from you on French, A.E.F, WWI, and 20th century political/military history as if only you and a privileged few have an education in history? Wow! You have to be one of those people who thinks they are always by far the smartest person in the room. You present you extremist personal political opinions as facts and some historic fact without proper context. You have done this not only in this thread but in other threads and PM to me so yes I do know you well enough Cee Zee to feel confident in my assessment of you.
Nom de Forum is a play on the French phrase Nom de Plume. The phrase Nom de Plume is considered to be a part of the English language and can be found in English language dictionaries. Nom de Forum has nothing to do with jingoism and all to do with playful use of language. We all on THR need to submit a forum name either real or assumed, my forum name is literally “Name for the Forum”.
Try as you might Cee Zee, nobody being objective in analysis is going to agree you are being persecuted with “poppycock”. Keep posting ridiculous political and history comments and I will continue to protest them. Either quit behaving as you do or man-up and accept the consequences without whining.
This thread should have been moderated when you began posting your bigoted remarks. I can only guess that it has not been closed because the Mods are not reading it or they are too amused reading it as I deflate your enormous ego!
Nom de Forum is a play on the French phrase Nom de Plume. The phrase Nom de Plume is considered to be a part of the English language and can be found in English language dictionaries. Nom de Forum has nothing to do with jingoism and all to do with playful use of language. We all on THR need to submit a forum name either real or assumed, my forum name is literally “Name for the Forum”.
Try as you might Cee Zee, nobody being objective in analysis is going to agree you are being persecuted with “poppycock”. Keep posting ridiculous political and history comments and I will continue to protest them. Either quit behaving as you do or man-up and accept the consequences without whining.
This thread should have been moderated when you began posting your bigoted remarks. I can only guess that it has not been closed because the Mods are not reading it or they are too amused reading it as I deflate your enormous ego!
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Regardless of anyone's history revision the French and Americans ended up using a form of the Italian Beretta 92 and the Brits bought the Glock 17.
I would say they all have a practical streak, and most of the current world small arms hits are Belgian, Italian, Austrian and German with a dominant US and Russian presence.
The real current world weapons export leaders are the US, Russia and China. Failed Empires are lagging far behind.
I would say they all have a practical streak, and most of the current world small arms hits are Belgian, Italian, Austrian and German with a dominant US and Russian presence.
The real current world weapons export leaders are the US, Russia and China. Failed Empires are lagging far behind.
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Nom de Forum
Member
You are correct anyone's version of history has little to do today with international use of small arms. Most smaller countries do not have the long established small arms infrastructure with which to to compete with today's major players. It is more about choosing where is the best opportunity to make the most money in sales and creating the most economic development of the a country. For countries such as France, England, etc. the benefits to their economies by concentrating on advance weaponry go far beyond sales. The advanced weapon technology development is enormously valuable for use in other areas of their economies. The phrase "Failed Empires" is a term that could arguably be applied to both the U.S., China, and Russia. Both nations have far less power over foreign lands and economies than they once did. China and apparently Russia are failed empires that are attempting a resurgence.
BTW Belgium, home of mighty F. N., also uses Glocks to equip their National and local police organizations.
tark
Member
All right , you two. (You know who you are) I'm gonna have to step in here and score this fight after only twelve rounds. Based on the ten point insult and response genital measuring system, I must declare NDF the narrow winner. He has a slightly better command of the English language as well, although CZ is also far above average in this respect.
To be perfectly honest, I derive enormous enjoyment out of reading you two go after one another. If liberals ever DO read these posts, I hope they read THIS one, because they will get an example of how the English language should be used. Perhaps this is why the Moderator didn't chop this thing off at the knees long ago. Anyway, I have a suggestion:
Why don't the two of you just meet somewhere and have a duel with the French pistol of choice?
Methinks we have strayed.....oh forget it!
To be perfectly honest, I derive enormous enjoyment out of reading you two go after one another. If liberals ever DO read these posts, I hope they read THIS one, because they will get an example of how the English language should be used. Perhaps this is why the Moderator didn't chop this thing off at the knees long ago. Anyway, I have a suggestion:
Why don't the two of you just meet somewhere and have a duel with the French pistol of choice?
Methinks we have strayed.....oh forget it!
Nom de Forum,
When you spoke of an "American born loser" in another forum that wasn't jingoism? BTW I did notice you didn't contradict a single fact I posted. Just another tirade. Can't you just calm down? Seriously. I don't want to argue with you and your wild allegations are baseless. And do you seriously think I need a French lesson on something as simple as "name of forum" (which is what you said - it should actually be "nom du forum" if you wanted it to mean what you said it means - those French prepositions are tricky).
Seriously though. Just calm down. I will ignore your endless stream of insults if you just calm down. You do know that most of the things I said were intended as jokes, right? I tried to deflect your attack with humor. That's where the "100 yard surrender champions" thing came from. How can you not see that? I didn't attack your precious France. There are things I have a problem with but I have a problem with lots of things. It ain't like the Soviets for pity's sake. Now there was a group that a person can hold a grudge against.
When you spoke of an "American born loser" in another forum that wasn't jingoism? BTW I did notice you didn't contradict a single fact I posted. Just another tirade. Can't you just calm down? Seriously. I don't want to argue with you and your wild allegations are baseless. And do you seriously think I need a French lesson on something as simple as "name of forum" (which is what you said - it should actually be "nom du forum" if you wanted it to mean what you said it means - those French prepositions are tricky).
Seriously though. Just calm down. I will ignore your endless stream of insults if you just calm down. You do know that most of the things I said were intended as jokes, right? I tried to deflect your attack with humor. That's where the "100 yard surrender champions" thing came from. How can you not see that? I didn't attack your precious France. There are things I have a problem with but I have a problem with lots of things. It ain't like the Soviets for pity's sake. Now there was a group that a person can hold a grudge against.
tark
Member
I tried to broker a cease fire. I knew it wouldn't last.
Is that so? This is a forum. Not English class. And I had a high school grammar teacher with a serious obsession with the language. Her brother was a famous author and she wanted to make sure everyone that ever went through her class could speak perfect English. This is hardly the place for such things though. Besides all that I haven't insulted our frog friend even once. I might have joked around with him but "insults"? You haven't seen any insults from me.
I was changing my post when you posted your post. I didn't see it. Besides I've been trying to call a cease fire since the grenades first started being thrown my way. The fact I used humor to do it doesn't change that. But getting back to the English thing - you can't broker a deal unless both parties agree to listen to you and how could that have been the case? A broker is an intermediary. That is only the case if you're in the middle of a negotiation which of course we aren't. Maybe we should be talking about "your" English.
powwowell
Member
Most people I've met, who believe that "if it ain't invented and made in 'merica, it ain't no good" are ignorant folk. They have kind of a smaller world.
I can tell when a snob is a snob. Bigotry is bigotry. An educated, bigoted, snob is still a bigot and a snob. No insult intended.
I can tell when a snob is a snob. Bigotry is bigotry. An educated, bigoted, snob is still a bigot and a snob. No insult intended.
tark
Member
You're right CeeZee, this is a forum....about guns. This particular thread is about lousy French and English autoloaders, something you and others seem to have forgotten. I am fully aware of the inherent mechanics of "Brokering a deal". I was just attempting to be funny, but some people don't have a sense of humor.
You haven't insulted our "Frog" friend....? That word in the context you use it is an out right racial slur. How about you stop with that..You only reveal a racist when you talk like that. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
My English....not so good. I admit that.
A plea to the moderator, give CZ the last word and END THIS THREAD.
You haven't insulted our "Frog" friend....? That word in the context you use it is an out right racial slur. How about you stop with that..You only reveal a racist when you talk like that. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
My English....not so good. I admit that.
A plea to the moderator, give CZ the last word and END THIS THREAD.
HisStigness
Member
I agree with your scoring of the match. It was a very informative (albeit a bit opinionated) fight from both sides.
I noticed the word bigot being thrown at Cee Zee quite a bit, but I don't really think it's true. He does have a slightly different point of view when discussing European history, but just because the high school textbooks don't teach it doesn't mean it's not true. If the French and British don't make crap for semi automatic pistols, then he's not being a bigot by pointing that out. All of the other stuff about WWI and colonization is off topic and may or may not be ture. All I know is that 1000 years from now, Europeans will be known for two things: 1) the millions of people they have killed in their (often senseless) wars and 2) the way they colonized and took resources from less developed nations around the world.
In summary: this has been an entertaining read featuring two very educated online personalities, and I don't believe Cee Zee is a bigot. He may be egotistical and very argumentative, but probably not a bigot.
A "racial" slur? I certainly didn't know French was a race. Are we back to eugenics here? It was a joke. I said it was a joke. I plainly said I said it as a joke. But some people have no sense of humor and you are another person who has forgotten this board is about guns. If I need your advice on posting I'll ask for it.
HisStigness
Member
I could be wrong, but I don't think Europeans are quite as sensitive or get their feelings hurt as easily as hypersensitive politically correct Americans. Also it's not "racism" when directed toward the same race. Maybe you could call it nationality-ism or something like that. We call the French "frogs" the French call us fat, what's the big deal?
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