Why No sSgnificant British or French Auto-loading Pistols?

[Cee Zee]

We call the French "frogs" the French call us fat, what's the big deal?

Anyone still calling the French "frogs" is doing so as a joke. It has long ago lost any real meaning to anyone except the sensitive looking for a problem. I could have linked to where our French named friend here talked about "American born losers" but I have tried to end this malarkey. The term "frog" comes from the fact that the French like to eat frog legs. I'd bet $100 there isn't a person in the state of Ohio that has eaten more frog legs than I have. We went frogging so many times it was crazy. My family had 3 day long parties where people ate no meat except the frog legs we gigged. My job was to carry the sack since I was just a kid at the time. But I guess nothing tastes better to me to this day than properly prepared frog legs. If someone called me a "frog" because I ate a lot of frog legs I would pretty much take it as a compliment. Anyone who doesn't know that taste of bull frog legs is missing out in life IMO. It comes from my background as a hillbilly I guess. I can post photos of those massive parties for anyone interested. If you could see what was on our plates it would likely have been frog legs. So feel free to call me frog any time.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Nom de Forum,

When you spoke of an "American born loser" in another forum that wasn't jingoism? BTW I did notice you didn't contradict a single fact I posted. Just another tirade. Can't you just calm down? Seriously. I don't want to argue with you and your wild allegations are baseless. And do you seriously think I need a French lesson on something as simple as "name of forum" (which is what you said - it should actually be "nom du forum" if you wanted it to mean what you said it means - those French prepositions are tricky).

Seriously though. Just calm down. I will ignore your endless stream of insults if you just calm down. You do know that most of the things I said were intended as jokes, right? I tried to deflect your attack with humor. That's where the "100 yard surrender champions" thing came from. How can you not see that? I didn't attack your precious France. There are things I have a problem with but I have a problem with lots of things. It ain't like the Soviets for pity's sake. Now there was a group that a person can hold a grudge against.

Cee Zee I was not attempting to give you a lesson in French. I was rebutting your assertion that my forum name has anything to do with jingoism. Apparently you need another lesson in what is not jingoism. You have, as you have many times in this thread, taken something out of context and therefor distorted reality to promulgate your opinion. You are accusing me of jingoism by claiming my use of the phrase “American born loser” was to denigrate Americans. Here is a link to a description of jingoism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

Here is what I posted in this thread, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=774279 , about possible “ISIS” attacks at Malls:

“If such an attack occurs at a mall it will probably be carried out by some soiled brat, under 30 years of age, American born, loser who decides society is not giving him the admiration he believes he deserves”.


I was expressing that it would probably not be an attack by a foreign national. Obviously I am not denigrating Americans or “judging one's own country as superior to others” in an extreme expression of nationalism. Your failure to comprehend this is either one or more of the following:

An improbability given your claimed level of education and demonstrated command of the English language and probably an act of deception.

An example of self-deception due to motivated reasoning to excuse your engaging in denigration of the French.

Proof you are a very poorly educated “historian” since you do not understand the colloquial meaning of jingoism.

Cee Zee, I am a native born United States citizen who is not of French descent so your question implying jingoism is absurd. You also keep implying I love the French, am French, or have a connection with the French. I don’t to all three. Several times I have visited France. I actually find the French to be quite annoying at times but not as annoying as your expression of bigotry toward the French. I don’t need to “calm down”. You need to “clam-up” about the French because you are just digging yourself in to a deeper hole with your foolishness. So you were joking about the French eh? What will you say next in an attempt to obfuscate your expressions of bigotry, “Some of my best friends are French”?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Cee Zee I see you have walked through the door HisStigness conveniently opened. Please don't try to minimize what you did by shifting focus to the use of the descriptor "frog" as if it was the primary focus of my comments. Your hyperbolic, bigoted comments about the actions and motivations behind the actions of the French is my primary focus. You know this. You will fool nobody but the naive with this manipulative tactic. You have displayed bigotry in this thread. That does not mean you are completely bigoted in your opinions. Proof of this are some of the other comments you made about the French in this thread.

 

[HisStigness]

Cee Zee I see you have walked through the door HisStigness conveniently opened. Please don't try to minimize what you did by shifting focus to the use of the descriptor "frog" as if it was the primary focus of my comments. Your hyperbolic, bigoted comments about the actions and motivations behind the actions of the French is my primary focus. You know this. You will fool nobody but the naive with this manipulative tactic. You have displayed bigotry in this thread. That does not mean you are completely bigoted in your opinions. Proof of this are some of the other comments you made about the French in this thread.

My bad. I feel that a lot of this conversation is beyond my knowledge of history and ability to use rhetoric. I will grab my popcorn and get out of the way.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Europeans are quite as sensitive or get their feelings hurt as easily as hypersensitive politically correct Americans.

Having lived in Europe that is not my experience. People are people and I heard Europeans of several nations angered by comments from different nations. The one thing they seemed to have most in common was a distain for the Germans.

Also it's not "racism" when directed toward the same race. Maybe you could call it nationality-ism or something like that.

I see no evidence Cee Zee is a racist. What you are attempting to describe is a form of jingoism.

We call the French "frogs" the French call us fat, what's the big deal?

Trust me, some of the French refer to Americans with far more derogatory terms than "fat".

BTW, I really like Top Gear and "The Stig"!

 

[Tallball]

I have a French 1935s. It seems to be a well-made pistol. If ammo were available I would doubtless enjoy shooting it.

Isn't that old-fashioned H&R 32acp based on a British design?

1775 hostilities begin at Lexington/Concord
1776 French begin to secretly supply the colonists with money and arms
1778 France becomes openly allied with the colonists
1781 the British surrender to a combined American and French force at Yorktown.
1783 the British and Americans sign a treaty ending the war

The facts would seem to contradict some of the previous statements.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I have a French 1935s. It seems to be a well-made pistol. If ammo were available I would doubtless enjoy shooting it.

Isn't that old-fashioned H&R 32acp based on a British design?

You are a fortunate man to own a M1935S as only 1,404 were made before German occupation stopped production.

You are correct about the H&R being based on a Webley Semiauto pistol(not the Fosbery semiauto revolver folks ).

 

[Tallball]

A relative brought the 1935s back home after the war ended. He took it from a German officer. Apparently they were using whatever they could get.

 

[Nom de Forum]

A relative brought the 1935s back home after the war ended. He took it from a German officer. Apparently they were using whatever they could get.

Hang on to it. The 1935A continued in production during the occupation. The 1935S did not. IIRC something like 240,000 1935A were made in total. A 1935S is indeed a rare French pistol.


Edit: The bolded sentence is wildly inaccurate. According to Ezell the combined total of 1935A and 1935S pistols is in the 70,000s. That still makes the "S" model considerably rarer than the "A".

Edit: I keep finding conflicting sources of total M1935S productions numbers so I have to retract my statements on total production numbers for both M1935A and M1935S pistols. It does appear that production of M1935A pistols greatly out numbers M1935S pistols.

 

[Tallball]

It was about 30 years ago. My wife's uncle had gotten the 1935s from his uncle, IIRC. He knew that I had knowledge of and books about old firearms. He gave it to me to research for him. When I got back with him and told him what I had learned, he told me I might as well just keep it, since he wasn't realistically going to find ammo for it. It is in very good condition and still has the original leather holster obviously made to fit it. I had never considered that it might be valuable.

 

[Tallball]

A few more historical notes:

The ghastly French losses, especially towards the beginning of WW1, were not some conspiracy to massacre "peasants". The French military was mistakenly trying to fight the previous war again without understanding the advances in technology. The lesson that they felt they had learned from the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1871 was that they needed to attack vigorously and keep on attacking. Unfortunately, heavy machine guns, barbed wire, and more advanced artillery made this strategy suicidal. The French were not alone in following this doomed strategy; other nations did so as well. Fortunately for the Germans, after their initial successes they elected to play defense in the West and go after the Russians offensively. After the successful German Spring offensives of 1918 the French and British were desperate for men and wanted to have American soldiers placed directly into seriously depleted Allied units. This was understandable, since they were in danger of losing the war at that point in time. This had nothing to do with a wish to destroy American troops by using them in doomed suicidal attacks.

WWII was unfortunately somewhat similar for the French. They tried to fight WW1 again. They had their fortified Maginot Line, and distributed their tanks (some of which were very good) in small groups to aid the infantry. Unfortunately for them, this defensive strategy ignored the technological and strategic advances which had been made by the Germans. The Germans massed their tanks in large groups and emphasized a "combined arms" approach whereby tanks, infantry, artillery, and air forces stayed in communication and worked together tactically. Bypassing the Maginot Line by pushing tanks through the "impassible" Ardennes Forest was another key to their success. Though the French often fought bravely, their overall strategy doomed them to defeat.

It is completely improper to ignore the courage and sacrifices of the French Resistance during the German occupation. They rescued downed Allied fliers, passed along important military secrets, destroyed German supplies, and so on and so forth. Many French citizens, including women, joined the Resistance knowing full well that eventually they would (more than likely) be caught, tortured, executed, sent to concentration camps, that their families would suffer as a result, and so on and so forth. Many thousands joined and suffered terrible fates as a result. Many of the French people showed tremendous courage during the war. To brand them all as cowards just because the overall military strategy of their commanding generals was deeply flawed is an insult to the thousands of courageous French men and women who suffered horrific torture and death at the hands of the Nazis.

And yes, I am one of the public schoolteachers who is "ruining this country". I have taught in public schools for 23 years, mostly English and Math, but also History for a couple of years. I seem to have an aptitude for teaching the "gifted and talented" students, and have been focusing on that for the past 16 years or so. The majority of my colleagues have been extremely hard-working and dedicated. We are obviously not in it for the money. I make less than any of my college friends.

 

[Edarnold]

To Monsieur 'Cee-Zee' :
The quote" Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man", which you amusingly and insultingly attributed to poor potty training on my part, is in fact said to originate with the great American gunmaker, Harry M. Pope. Apparently your vast erudition does not include the history of the developments that lead to the remarkable accuracy characterizing today's target rifles.
Regarding your dust-ups with Tark, Nome de Forum, and others in this forum, you apparently are under the impression that your outstanding command of rhetoric has allowed you to ridicule and humiliate your opponents, much in the way Bill Buckley defeated his sparring partners. I am very familiar with the recorded debates and writings of William Buckley. You, sir, are no Bill Buckley. No insult intended.

 

[tark]

Nice family pics, CZ. Not sure what they have to do with French and English pistols.....but nice nevertheless.

Methinks we..... nevermind.

Do I hear the bell for the fifteenth and final round??

 

[Onmilo]

The English USED to produce some of the finest revolving handguns in the world.
All that pretty well stopped when they made major restrictions to private handgun ownership in the early 1900s.
The English continued to produce good sound combat revolvers through world war two but the civilian populace rarely saw or handled them.

The English never really warmed up to semi auto pistols for civilian or military use and when it became apparent that was the trend in modern combat, they looked elsewhere to fulfill the needs.

 

[Tallball]

I believe that a small number of clunky semi-autos were issued in the British Navy and/or air forces during WW1.

Did British troops in WW2 use any of the High Power clones that were being produced in Canada?

 

[vaupet]

Yes the Inglis build Bhp was distributed to the paratroopers to accompany their Stengun smg
Both 9mm
I have fotos to proove that
The British made more then one error, they could have had the fn 49 in 44 if they wanted too

 

[Cee Zee]

which you amusingly and insultingly attributed to poor potty training on my part

It was a joke friend. No insult intended. It was just so funny I had so say it. I don't come up with lines like that very often.

 

[tark]

Who trained Yoda???????????

Just wondered.....

About as relevant to the thread as some of the other posts.

Methinks..... I give up.

 

[tark]

I'm sure gonna miss all this fancy English.....

 

[Wanderling]

Going back to the original question...

I think a lot had to do with early implementation of gun control. Not sure about France but in England I believe it was in the late 1920s. So too early for developing of the large SA pistol civilian market that existed in say Germany or Switzerland or Chech republic in the 30s. Couple this with the fact that England did not have a large / famous ingenious pistol manufacturers like Browning or FN or Walther or Mauser, they produced the Parabellum under license and had a couple of very homely British designs, but were largely a revolver nation before the ban. I think French did have a rather nice Manurin SA pistols in the 50s, but there's not that many of them imported in the US. The poles for instance didn't have a huge industry producing SA pistols, but a much larger % of their army surplus stuff got imported here.

Both French and the Brits have great gun designers and a great history of making firearms, just not that many SA pistols.

(By the way, this may be off topic, but if you look at the long term trends of murder rate in the UK - which was always lower than in the US, for the reasons I am not getting into here - the introduction of gun control did squat to lower their murder rate, it went down significantly from XIX century highs well before the first gun control law, continued it's downward trend for a while, stayed low in the 40s and 50s, then went up in the 60s and 70s - decades after gun control laws. The gun control law seemingly had no impact whatsoever, there were other societal trends behind the changes in English murder rates.

 

[tark]

Wanderling, I wouldn't worry too much about getting off topic. About half of the posts on this thread have been off topic. Wildly off topic. Go back and read all the posts, it is hugely entertaining. We had two very articulate and intelligent posters engage in a cat fight that was very entertaining to read. French and British autoloaders were only occasionally mentioned.

It was so damn entertaining....I suspect the moderator, if there is one, let it go on for that reason alone.

P.S. I'm still not completely sure who won the fight! Round 15, anyone?

 

[Nom de Forum]

Wanderling, I wouldn't worry too much about getting off topic. About half of the posts on this thread have been off topic. Wildly off topic. Go back and read all the posts, it is hugely entertaining. We had two very articulate and intelligent posters engage in a cat fight that was very entertaining to read. French and British autoloaders were only occasionally mentioned.

It was so damn entertaining....I suspect the moderator, if there is one, let it go on for that reason alone.

P.S. I'm still not completely sure who won the fight! Round 15, anyone?

Tark, you are not just baiting you are chumming! It was not a catfight as neither of the people in dispute are women! Call it dogfight . There is much off-topic information that could be posted on French motivations, attitudes, and actions regarding historical events spanning a century that would not be short phrases and sentences of trite inaccurate insult. That however would require many more words than the insults and this really is not the forum for a detailed essay on such a complex subject. It does not take much of a web search to find this information from respected sources. Even if you do not agree with those sources a person should never express your disagreement with trite insults if you want your opinion respected. I am glad you and other people found the exchange entertaining .

 

[tark]

NomDeForum.....darn it...you caught me red handed! Yes I was chumming. This thing is too much fun to stop!

I called it a cat fight for reasons other than what you might think. This was a battle royal between two very serious adversaries. Dogs, God bless em', aren't what one would consider very dangerous for their size. They only have one weapon, their teeth.

Cats, on the other hand, are a very dangerous animal for their size. They have Fast Twitch muscles which, pound for pound, are twice as strong as a dogs. They have five weapons; their teeth and all four feet. Cats in the wild will kill (and drag up a tree) prey that is three and four times their weight. A dog cannot do this alone, he must pack up with other dogs.

In summary, a cat fight is a far deadlier affair than a dog fight. All you Pit Bull lovers: Please don't start. I know how savage and ferocious your favorite breed is. Let me know when one kills a small cow and drags it up a tree all by itself.

And so, Nomdeforum, since you and CeeZee were engaged in a real slobberknocker I called it a cat fight.