Why not dry fire a rimfire rifle?

[heavyshooter]

Guys,

Can you please help me understand why dry firing a .22 Marlin Model 60 is damaging. I am certain that it is, but I am unsure of why. Can someone walk me though the process. Also, since I cannot dry fire it, doesn't that mean I will have to store it with the spring under tension.

P.S.-- Before you guys beat me up for not using the search function, I used it but I could not get a clear answer to my two specific concerns. How does it damage the rifle and how do I avoid storing the gun with the spring under tension.

 

[dmazur]

My understanding is that the firing pin on many rimfire guns hits the edge of the chamber when the rifle (or pistol) is dry fired.

While this probably doesn't hurt if it is done as part of cleaning, there is hard evidence of chamber "peening" from excessive dry firing. The chamber peening can be so severe that it interferes with the functioning of the gun.

Some manufacturers warn about this and some don't.

Snap-caps are the solution, if you are really worried about this.

I've had a Ruger MarkII for years. I dry fired it occasionally, but not thousands of times are part of a training regimen. No damage I can perceive.

I now have a .22 rifle and a .17 HMR rifle. I don't plan to dry fire these as part of training, either, but I also relax spring tension by "snapping" the striker after cleaning.

Sorry if this isn't a definitive answer, but I believe it is correct.

Here's a link to a previous discussion about dry-firing -

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-282108.html

 

[.38 Special]

Looks definitive to me, and I agree 100%

Centerfires can usually be dryfired without damage because the firing pin doesn't strike anything but the air in the chamber.

The rimfire pin strikes the edge of the chamber, peening it and often damaging or breaking the pin itself.

 

[nalioth]

While this probably doesn't hurt if it is done as part of cleaning, there is hard evidence of chamber "peening" from excessive dry firing.

It's not 'chamber peening' that is the problem.

Repeated strikes on the breechface will peen the firing pin (or break it, depending on make and model), making the firearm unusable until repaired.

 

[VARifleman]

Some rimfire guns can be dry fired, any one that is designed and fit properly can be dry fired infinitely with no more wear than shooting it that many times. Check by looking at your chamber, if it has a chamber sleeve, if this is flush with the barrel, ok, one more thing to check now, if it isn't flush, don't dry fire it. If it is flush, check to see if the firing pin can move past the bolt face. If it cannot, it's safe to dry fire.

Here's some pictures of what you need to look at:

 

[HisDivineShadow]

Does anyone know if this applies to the Winchester 9422 rifles? I tend to dry fire mine...

 

[Afy]

Just get a packet of snap caps and be done with it. They are relatively cheap and will remove all doubt from your mind.

 

[thebear101]

I'm sorry to bring everyone down but should act like the gun is loaded, yep, I once had a 444 marlin contender pistol put it on saftey and worked the hammer, broken several hammer springs messing around, and also had a 22 crack shot (single shot) or (favorite) that I broken the firing pin so I purchased a steele lathe and made my own firing pin out of a grade 5 bolt, works fine today, baught 33 yrs ago, be safe and take care, from Andy

 

[heavyshooter]

Does this mean that I use a snap cap and store the rifle with the snap cap in the chamber? -- Or is there a means of removing the snap cap before storage? I'm trying to avoid the compressed spring during storage.

 

[CZguy]

I'm trying to avoid the compressed spring during storage.

Springs wear from being cycled, not from being stored compressed.

Physics lesson over, back to the discussion.

 

[moooose102]

i just pick up some fired rounds and use them as snap caps, fire on them 3 or 4 times, take it out and exchange it for another. BUT, i do this in a lever gun, and a revolver, where i do not have to completely cycle the action to get the firing pin to reset. it may, or may not work for you.

 

[Horsemany]

If you want to relax the spring for storage you DO NOT need snap caps. Make sure the gun is unloaded and the action open. Pull the trigger and slowly close the action. You now have the spring relaxed and you didn't dry fire the gun or peen anything.

 

[VARifleman]

They don't make snap caps for .22 LR that I'm aware of, I've only seen aluminum dummy rounds and those should DEFINITELY not be used for snap caps. That will damage your gun. You can try moooose102's recommendation of using a fired round, but good luck getting that to chamber. Take your bolt out and check it like I posted in #5.

 

[1KPerDay]

I've had a Ruger MarkII for years. I dry fired it occasionally, but not thousands of times are part of a training regimen. No damage I can perceive.

That's because that particular model has a "firing pin stop" which makes it safe to dry fire. See Page 21 here:

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/PDF/InstructionManuals/01.pdf

 

[esq_stu]

That's because that particular model has a "firing pin stop" which makes it safe to dry fire.

That's why I bought mine.

 

[heavyshooter]

"Springs wear from being cycled, not from being stored compressed." -- CZguy

Really!!! Then why do all of those foolish pump shotgun lovers avoid loading their guns to full capacity in an attempt to preserve the magazine spring.


"If you want to relax the spring for storage you DO NOT need snap caps. Make sure the gun is unloaded and the action open. Pull the trigger and slowly close the action. You now have the spring relaxed and you didn't dry fire the gun or peen anything." -- Horsemany

Horsemany, you just became my bestest friend. Okay everyone, lets give a heartfelt standing ovation to Horsemany.

 

[dispatch55126]

Really!!! Then why do all of those foolish pump shotgun lovers avoid loading their guns to full capacity in an attempt to preserve the magazine spring.

I still change the oil at 500 miles on a new engine and won't drive over 55 or use the cruise control for the first 1,000 miles. Habits are hard to break.

 

[CZguy]

Really!!! Then why do all of those foolish pump shotgun lovers avoid loading their guns to full capacity in an attempt to preserve the magazine spring.

Another thing about springs, is that over-compression will wear them out faster than anything else. That's why many people with hi-cap pistols, chamber a round than don't top off the magazine.

I still change the oil at 500 miles on a new engine and won't drive over 55 or use the cruise control for the first 1,000 miles. Habits are hard to break.

I know what you mean.....me too. I still drop the hammer on a firing pin rather than leave it cocked.....and I know I don't have to, but it's an old old habit.

 

[nalioth]

That's why many people with hi-cap pistols<snip>

You talking about a pistol with a 57 or 111 round magazine?

There is no such thing as a "high capacity" magazine.

 

[.38 Special]

It's not 'chamber peening' that is the problem.

Repeated strikes on the breechface will peen the firing pin (or break it, depending on make and model), making the firearm unusable until repaired.

I have seen chambers that were peened by dry firing to the point that the gun would not extract reliably.

They don't make snap caps for .22 LR that I'm aware of, I've only seen aluminum dummy rounds and those should DEFINITELY not be used for snap caps. That will damage your gun.

Tipton and Pachmayr make .22 snap caps. The Tiptons have a much superior reputation; I find each one is good for about 20 firings. I have never heard that aluminum caps can damage the gun; only that they don't stand up to dry-firing. Please cite a source.

If you want to relax the spring for storage you DO NOT need snap caps. Make sure the gun is unloaded and the action open. Pull the trigger and slowly close the action. You now have the spring relaxed and you didn't dry fire the gun or peen anything.

This is great advice, but does not work with every gun. The S&W Model 41, for instance, will still be cocked after this process.

Essentially, if the question is "How can I relax the springs without dry firing?" then "Use an empty case" is a pretty good answer.

 

[heavyshooter]

"Springs wear from being cycled, not from being stored compressed." -- CZguy

The Ruger 2008 Catalog and Buyers Guide lists the benefits of having a revolver for home defense. Spring retention is one of the benefits that they mention. Patrick Sweeney, the author of the article, says, "Despite the modern shift to autoloading pistols, there is still a place for the humble wheelgun. The DA revolver, specifically. The advantages are many: Unless it is cocked, a revolver's springs are all at rest. None is compressed...I am certain that many generations from now the coil mainspring on a Ruger revolver will work as intended, without suffering any loss of power since the day it left the factory." -- pg. 90

Does Sweeney need a physics lesson? Talk to me brethren.

 

[wuchak]

Don't worry about the spring being under tension. That's what springs are designed to do. It's not being in a static state that wears out springs it's compression/decompression cycles. Modern springs can last more cycles than you can put on them in a lifetime. Think of how many cycles the valve springs in a car engine go through. We're talking thousands per minute. In just a couple of hours driving time they take more cycles than most firearms get in two lifetimes of use.

 

[benzy2]

The problems that I have heard of with rimfires specifically were that some rimfires weren't designed with a firing pin stop in the bolt itself and as such firing them without a round will cause the chamber edge and the firing pin to hit. Some say the firing pin will break over time. Others say the chamber will dent. I guess it could depend on the quality of each as to which goes first.

There is a test that I have heard of and use to determine if a rimfire is safe to dry fire. I take a piece of printer paper and slip it so that the bolt closes on it. I then dry fire on it. If the paper rips at the firing pin spot then I don't dry fire the rifle as the firing pin is hitting the chamber edge. If it doesn't rip then the firing pin has a built in stop in the bolt so that it won't hit the chamber edge. Sometimes the extractors rip the paper so you have to be gentle inserting the paper and you have to look at where the firing pin should hit.

The second cause of worry is true on many centerfires and on rimfires with a built in firing pin stop that keeps the firing pin from hitting the chamber edge. When you dry fire the firing pin slams into the edge of the firing pin stop in the bolt. This isn't good. Normally you don't have this happen with a round inserted as the firing pin stops on the primer before it reaches the stop in the bolt. When you dry fire excessively and the firing pin hits the firing pin stop in the bolt at best you get wear on the firing pin. On some firearms the bolts are known to be made of soft metal and repeated dryfiring actually peens the bolt. Not good since bolts are much harder to replace properly than a firing pin. The best system is one where there is a small light spring between the firing pin and the firing pin stop in the bolt. This spring will absorb the energy and even if it wears out a spring is CHEAP to replace.

The amount of dry firing is a big determinant as to the amount of wear. Dry firing before you put the rifle away in the safe will more than likely never cause any damage on any firearm. On the other hand sitting and dry firing the wrong firearm 100,000 times could cause big problems. Most modern rimfires from the big name companies are safe to dry fire. Dry fire is a great way to learn trigger control. Snap caps for .22lr are a waste of money. Pick up a few hand fulls of spent casings that you shot from your firearm. Rimfire snap caps wear out about as fast as a spent shell wears out. Unless you need them to cycle I would just use spent cases if you don't feel comfortable dry firing on an empty chamber.

 

[ants]

I respect you guys, all of you. I started to help heavyshooter with his questions, but I realized that anything I write will likely be shot down by someone on a subsequent post, right or not. So here is the best advice I can muster:

Don't depend upon gun guys to teach you about springs. Sometimes there seems to be more misinformation about gun springs than good information. Go find a reliable scientific or industrial information source and learn about coil springs in general. All the basics apply to gun springs.


[Not to embarass you, heavyshooter, but a compressed spring will be under compression, not under tension -- tension means the spring is stretched out, not compressed short.]

[Also, don't leave fired brass in your chamber. If there is any ambient moisture present, old brass left in the chamber can turn blue and get stuck. Then you have to clean the blue gunk out of your chamber.]

 

[heavyshooter]

Thanks Ants. That was by no means embarassing. I assumed that the question betrayed the fact that I am a gunsmith novice.

I am curious about the Sweeney quote that I posted in #21 above. Does anyone have a response to that?