Why not magazines?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Bobson, May 27, 2021.

  1. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    Just came across a belt-carrier product designed to assist a shooter with rapidly moving shells from belt to shotgun, and it lead me to wonder why all the manufacturers of the world’s finest shotguns still use a tube feed design instead of detachable magazines.

    At least in shotguns designed for “fighting,” like those produced by Benelli and Beretta, doesnt a magazine system make a lot more sense? Better overall capacity, significantly faster reloads to full capacity. I totally understand not having magazines in EVERY shotgun, but in the combat/fighting shotgun, it seems like a pretty major oversight. And sure, there are companies who have put mags on shotguns, but why haven’t we seen Benelli do this with the M4 series, or Beretta with their 1301s?

    Curious if it’s actually an oversight (seems unlikely), if there’s a design issue about shotguns that makes it difficult, or if it’s simply a matter of a lack of interest from the primary customer base.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2021
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  2. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    I'm not a shotgunner, but aren't shotgun shells rimmed?

    Most mag loaded firearms use a rimless cartridge which allows them to stack properly in a magazine.
     
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  3. AK Hunter

    AK Hunter Member

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    My Romanian PSL (7.62x54r) pulls from a 10 round magazine so shooting rimed rounds from a mag is possible.
    My guess is most shotgun uses don't require a large quantity of ammo to be shot from the gun at one time.
    I watched this mag handle a full 25 round box of 12ga shot shells in one mag dump.
     
  4. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    Magazine feed shotguns limit, imo, the strengths of the shotgun.

    Number one would be ammunition choice flexibility. Dropping in a slug whenever you need it is pretty sweet.

    The other at the top of my list is topping off the gun early and often. A shotgun should never run dry, imo.

    You could swap mags before you are out of shells, but then what do you do with the partial mag?
    Stow it? It's big...

    Dump it? Precious ammo!

    Mags for shotguns are cumbersome and hard to carry.

    Now that's my opinion... Your mileage will vary
     
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  5. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    I don't like them because most tube mags hold just as many rounds as the box mags. Most hold more. And the weight is spread out

    In most 223, a blind mag holds 3-5. A handy box mag holds 20-30. Weighs little

    In 9mm a revolver holds 6-8. A small box mag holds 15-20.

    In a 12 guage a tube on an 18.5 inch gun holds 4-5. Many shotguns hold closer to 10
    A box mag usually holds 5. And if they get bigger than that they are awkward. Like duct taping a 25 round box of shells in front of the trigger.

    To each their own though. I don't mind them. Just don't want one
     
  6. The Glockodile

    The Glockodile Member

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    I can imagine that using a magazine can ruin the overall balance of the firearm...
     
  7. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Buy an 870 DM or something from Black Aces Tactical if you think that's the way to go. Cpl. Agarn laid out all the minuses to them, but they are available if you want one.
     
  8. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    On the move it is pretty easy to load a couple more shells into a shotgun. Easier and less bulky than a mag. Shotguns are not picky about single loading either, if empty throw one in and keep going.
     
  9. The Happy Kaboomer

    The Happy Kaboomer Member

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    There is a tube loader out there for quick loading shotgun tube magazines.........I WOULD NOT own a clip/magazine fed shotgun......UGLY-Unweildy-a gimmick.
     
  10. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    It's been tried and not many were interested. Lots of negatives already discussed above. A 5-6 round detachable magazine is about as big as is practical and you can do that a lot easier, and with better reliability with a tube mag. Shot shells are much bigger and heavier than pistol or most rifle ammo so it isn't going to be easy to carry lots of reloads anyway.
     
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  11. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    I have handled a Saiga shotgun with five round box and drum magazines.

    I found the shotgun with magazines bulky and clumsy.

    I'd rather use either my pump or semi-auto tube fed shotgun and top off the tube magazine than bother with the bulky 12ga boxes, especially swapping out an empty for a full and stowing the empty.

    The military surplus canvas pouch with strap for 7.62mm NATO 100rd linked belt is the right size to shoulder an open 25rd box of 12ga shotshells. Should I have to face a herd of feral hogs or those fast and furious orange skeet birds.
     
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  12. Hugger-4641

    Hugger-4641 Member

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    I have a Civet 12ga with 10rd mag. I like it just fine, no more cumbersome than an Ar-15 with a 30rd mag. But I will say that I have more trust in my 870 with tube extension. It stays by my bed with 10rds of various dissuasion while the Civet stays in the safe.
     
  13. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    Shotgun fights don't tend to last long.

    The tube-fed shotgun has historically provided sufficient firepower for the vast majority of times. It is also incredibly reliable, didn't get in the way, and can be thumb loaded to top it off during the fight if needed.

    The standard 4-8 rounds of tube guns is enough. And if more firepower is needed, it's probably better to switch to a carbine.

    The shotgun is what it is, a close in fight ender with more effective terminal ballistic potential than almost any other small arm in current usage on a hit to hit scale.

    They are not designed for sustained suppressing fire in a full blown war scenario, but for the Lawman and responsible armed citizen, they are an extremely dependable and devastatingly potent close range weapon.
     
  14. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

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    My saiga s12 uses detachable magazines.
    The original russia made magazine holds 3 inch shells and the US ones only hold 2.75 inch.
    Shotgun snobs hate it.
     
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  15. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    I don’t want one, but that’s just because I don’t really use my shotgun much and didn’t see a reason for it. But I assumed that the military or LE communities who use the shotguns I was referencing in the OP would want more capacity. Now I understand why that’s not the case lol.

    Thanks for all the responses. Lots of good reasons here (and a couple of others :p).
     
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  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Getting a shotgun magazine to work as reliably as a rifle or handgun magazine is tougher from an engineering standpoint.
     
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  17. Mauser lover

    Mauser lover Member

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    Ding ding ding! Winner!

    Tube loaded rifles were used, and are now generally seen to be obsolete compared to detachable box magazines. This doesn't mean that they won't work (because they do), or that folks don't like them (because they do), but they aren't the pinnacle of technology anymore. All the arguments about balance were made with the rifles too. A slug or buckshot round isn't going to get tossed in the elevator of a Winchester 94, but I doubt the balance issue is actually an issue with fighting shotguns. Maybe trap guns, but I don't think it matters for fighting shotguns.

    These are also produced, and somewhat popular in the right crowd. Take a look at all the Turkish imports right now. In my eyes, they are absolutely hideous. They look and handle like bloated AR10s, but they are popular in some groups. And I did want one before I thought about the design decisions and handled one.

    Three problems that I can see:

    First, while rimmed rifle/handgun cases have been made to work in both detachable and fixed box magazines, it is more difficult to make them run well. And anything that requires a smaller tolerance window to work wears out faster.

    Second, shotgun shells are blunt. I am aware that you can make a 1911 feed wadcutters (or empty cases) if you are good enough, but see my above paragraph. More time or parts into a particular good raises the price of that good.

    Third (and perhaps most important), shotgun shells are plastic and tend to smoosh. If the spring pressure is from the side of the shell and it is stored for a long time, will it feed? If the spring pressure is from the nose of the round, it isn't going to deform as easily. I can look up the vectors and formulae, but you can too if you want that information in more detail.
     
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  18. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    In some states, a semi auto shotgun with a detachable mag = assault weapon.
     
  19. JCooperfan1911

    JCooperfan1911 Member

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    Tons of Policemen are riding around right now as we type and are carrying plain jane unmodified factory 870 Police shotguns with bead sight and 4 round tube magazine.

    They just WORK and you don't need an extended 10 shot tube for defense. Just my opinion.

    Rob Haught, Chris Baker, and others use shorter mag tubes. I use a +1 extension on my 870 (as does Rob Haught) and it balances better and swings easier, makes the gun a lot easier to hold with one hand during reloads, and prevents the extended mag tube from snagging and breaking off (heard more than one LEO who experienced that).

    I briefly owned a shotgun with 8 round tube and fully loaded with heavy high brass defensive loads it handled about as well as a dead pig at the end of a shovel.

    The idea that every fighting shotgun must have a heavy long extended magazine tube is patently false. There are some compelling reasons for shorter tubes. The gun handles much nicer and with a good sidesaddle one can top the gun off in an instant and learn to quickly reload single rounds with an empty tube. Here's mine:

    kpmfsr2o1x171.jpg

    If you can find a SINGLE instance of 4-5 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot being insufficient in a home invasion scenario, it'll be the first I've ever heard of it and I've researched plenty.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2021
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  20. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    Shotguns are for tracking moving
    targets and wing shooting, magazines need to be huge to hold 9+ rounds. 10 + round shotgun magazines are heavy and affect the balance and swing of the gun Badly.
     
  21. ColoradoMinuteMan

    ColoradoMinuteMan Member

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    Yes, exactly. Not designed for a sustained, suppressive fire tactics. Made for quick, close, stopping. This is why we’ve seen them deployed tactically in door kicks, tunnels, trenches, etc. If volume of fire is your tactic, use a different tool.

     
  22. George P

    George P member

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    Because most countries do not have folks using a shotgun for "fighting"; personally I find it silly, but then I'm an old Fuddy Duudy who uses mine for hunting and target shooting, not "fighting"
     
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  23. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Some of us have actually used shotguns in combat. They do come in handy at times. With that being said. I don't want a box magazine sticking out of my shotgun when I have it strapped on me while using my primary weapon.
     
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  24. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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  25. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    I am sure you will see more. Up until quite recently there was no discussion of "home defense" shotguns, tactical, etc., etc. I do not own any, or plan to, but if you like the idea have at it.
     
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