Why not take a target gun hunting?

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There's just not much advantage to super accuracy in a hunting rifle. The basic off the shelf hunting rifles are so accurate these days that it's ridiculous anyways. When shooting at game at distance, you're much more likely to be miss due to any of the following:

- wind
- the animal taking a step (with ~0.5s flight time, the animal can move a LOT if it decides to)
- range mis-estimation
- insufficiently stable firing positions (most field positions add 2MOA+ to total group size)

than you are due to inaccuracy of the rifle.

So what are you gaining with target rifles? MAYBE 1/2 MOA in accuracy. But at what cost? Weight, size, inappropriate stocks (which may hurt you from field positions), and super-light triggers. All of those hurt you when hunting. So you've traded something of essentially no value for several very valuable things.

Hunting rifles are designed the way the are for a reason, and it's not that the people designing them have never see a target rifle.
 
To your primary question, there isn't any inherent reason not to take a target rifle hunting. They are two tools optimized for different purposes, though, and you sacrifice something to use one tool for the other's purpose.

I have two very accurate rifles that shoot the same cartridge. The one is a heavy barreled custom job built on a trued 700 action, sporting top quality glass with a ranging reticle in the first focal plane. It is heavy. It is at its best shooting from a stable position: bench or prone. The other is a lightweight Cooper that also wears a quality scope, but one optimized for hunting. It is amazingly light and handy. While it does well from the bench, it cries to be carried afield. Both group exceptionally well--probably the two most accurate rifles in my modest collection. Certainly I could take the first hunting ... but I probably won't.

I get that finances can be a constraint. So the question is, which do you plan to do more? Hunt or target shoot? I'd let the answer to that question inform my decision about what type of highly-accurate rifle I "had to have" first.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
 
I use my Remington PSS in .308 with Leupold Mark 4 LRT 3.5-10 for field sniping of deer. Lotsa of fun from a ground blind,built from an Altec linemans bucket buried in the ground between two pine trees. My little gun nest.:evil:
 
To your primary question, there isn't any inherent reason not to take a target rifle hunting. They are two tools optimized for different purposes, though, and you sacrifice something to use one tool for the other's purpose.

I have two very accurate rifles that shoot the same cartridge. The one is a heavy barreled custom job built on a trued 700 action, sporting top quality glass with a ranging reticle in the first focal plane. It is heavy. It is at its best shooting from a stable position: bench or prone. The other is a lightweight Cooper that also wears a quality scope, but one optimized for hunting. It is amazingly light and handy. While it does well from the bench, it cries to be carried afield. Both group exceptionally well--probably the two most accurate rifles in my modest collection. Certainly I could take the first hunting ... but I probably won't.

I get that finances can be a constraint. So the question is, which do you plan to do more? Hunt or target shoot? I'd let the answer to that question inform my decision about what type of highly-accurate rifle I "had to have" first.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.
My regular deer rifles are accurate enough for hunting as it is. Im basically wanting a target rifle that IF..big IF I ever get a chance to take game at longer ranges, I would like the option. In all likelihood, it will never see a day in the field. Im really just hoping yall can help justify my addiction for shooting by buying a new rifle.
 
We can certainly help you justify a new rifle! Sounds like you need a target rifle! Lots of good options in that vein. Just start with what game you might want to take and make sure you build around an adequate cartridge--one that will launch a bullet capable of the terminal ballistics you need. While a .260 Rem or 6.5 CM are excellent cartridges for ringing steel "way out there," they might be marginal on anything larger than whitetail out beyond 500. That's a question I haven't studied. I'll be interested to see what others suggest, especially to one is doesn't like recoil.
 
Doesn't take a super special rifle to make 4-500 yard shots on deer. It just takes knowing your equipment and doing your part.

One place I used to hunt I covered an entire bottom land and had 400 yard shots one direction and 500 yard the other. I would regularly heart punch deer with my Browning A-bolt 7mmwsm and that rifle has a lightweight barrel. The gun is stock other than a little trigger work and I do handload my ammo for it but it shoots just about as well with factory Winchester ammo.

I loved hunting that place, is was more like deer shooting than deer hunting. They had an over population of deer and needed the herd thinned. I would fill the freezer every winter.
 
I don't think hunters should take their first shot at any range unless it's been proved It won't hit more than 5 inches from point of aim 4 out of 5 times Few top ranked competitors do that at 500 yards with their first shot they got a zero for the day before. Gets better at shorter ranges. At longer ranges. . . . .

If you can shoot 4 out of 5 in the hunter's 4P test at some range starting with first shot after you guessed its distance and doped the wind, that range is good to shoot at big game. 4P is Punching Paper Pie Plates.

Calculate bullet drop per five yards of range and drift per mph of cross wind at target distance. How good are you estimating sight corrections for environments different from that during sighting in?

I wouldn't say your statement about 'few top ranked competitors' being able to make that shot at 500 yards is true. I'm not even a "top ranked competitor", and I routinely do this at distances beyond 500 yards at the start of a range session. I do shoot competitively, and I do shoot good gear that I know how to use. Putting a bullet on a pie plate at 500 yards (even a first round) isn't that difficult for people who enjoy this type of shooting. Is Joe Bob just going to be able to pull out his rusty (I mean trusty) old deer rifle and do this off of Kentucky Windage? No, certainly not. But, a serious shooter who routinely shoots long range won't have any trouble with that shot.

I personally fall into the class of people who takes my target gun hunting. My lightweight target gun weighs under 10 pounds, and I'd trust it on shots to 600 yards. My heavyweight gun is around 20 pounds, and I'd put my reliable (4 out of 5 or better) shot distance out to 850 yards... which is further than I'd trust the bullet to drop a large game animal.

Some hunters brag about taking close shots, others about long shots. There are unethical and poor hunters in both camps, but plenty of competent individuals to go around.

EDITED TO ADD:

External atmospheric conditions matter a lot more with long range shooting, too. As such, knowing your limits matters as well. When the weather is cooperating it's a lot easier to KNOW that you'll hit your target. If you're dealing with strong, gusty, and changing winds, the difficulty of the same shot can go up exponentially. So, knowing when to pull the trigger and when to let the animal walk is crucially important for the long range hunter.
 
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When doping wind correction for the first shot at long range, remember cross winds are higher in speed above the line of sight than in it and varies with terrain. The higher they are, the faster they are.

And a given cross wind speed close to you causes more drift at target range than the same cross wind near the target. Often three times as much.
 
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I've got a couple of stands where I can take long shots and I can drive or ride up to them so the weight of the rifle is not a big deal. I know the ranges of the main deer trails and the range of several land marks. My rifle is a 300 WSM with a McMillan stock, Krieger AMU barrel and a 22 power Nightforce scope. I can shoot 5 shot 1 hole groups with this rifle pretty much on command at 100 yd. It will hold .5 moa at 500 or even 600 yards. I am comfortable with 500 yd shots with this rifle and under these conditions. I've shot more than a few coyotes at 500 yards on these stands and a few deer. They walk out at 500 yards, I dial in 28 clicks and boom, coyote flops over. Same thing with deer.

For the most part, target rifles are heavy and awkward to tote around and the higher power scopes have a smaller field of vision. Kinda funny, but I shot a deer about 3 years ago at about 40 yards. I think my aiming point was a tick on the deer! A friend called to see if it was me that shot and if I needed any help. I replied, whats wrong with this picture? I'm sitting here with a 300 mag and a 22 power scope and the deer comes out at 40 yards.

If you are going to take long shots you need to know your rifle and know the range. And practice, practice, practice.
 
shooting the long range matchs(1000 yrds) in williamsport pa in the late 60,s, i shot a heavy(18lbs) 7mm mag with a redfield 3200 20x scope with 160 gr match bullet at 3000 fps and at one match i had over 30 inchs of wind drift. no nobody did good on that leg as the wind was howling. the groups we shot back then look like they were shot from a smooth bore compared to the groups shot today by the rifles-powder,bullets and scopes available to the long range shooters. eastbank.
 
There are some basic assumptions about rifles that aren't correct in studying what a target vs hunting rifle can do.

First, the overused and completely misunderstood meaning of "tight tolerances." Those are the dimensions to which the individual parts are machined, and as an aggregate the variation allowable from smaller to larger compared to blueprint. Parts are difficult to get exactly on dimension, because of tooling condition, operator or machine preciseness, even the ambient temperature it's operating. Because of that, most commonly used acceptable variations, like, + or - .015" are specified on the blue print. That allows one bolt to measure smaller and possibly the last one machined to be as much as .030" bigger. "Tolerances" are the range small to large that is allowed.

What most people mean to say is "tight clearances." That is the dimensions measured when assembled that allow parts to move while dynamically operating. If the bolt is actually machined to a tight tolerance of .0005" it may still rattle and slop around in the rails by deliberate choice of the designer. That rifle may need to be used in both Arctic and desert condition, in one case it could leave a slightlyn warm environment or get dusted with snow, in the other it could leave a cooler environment then heat soak in the sun. Metal changes sizes when exposed to temperatures - it contracts when cooled, and expands when heated.

In either case if the clearances aren't adequate the bolt could bind - regardless of the "tight tolerances" of the individual parts in manufacture. It would be suffering from tight CLEARANCES.

Now we have to ask, what does that have to do with bolt lockup? It needs to be the same at either extreme of temperature, metal on metal contact with the lugs. Any looseness would eventually hammer them, which is why they have a tapered fit to accomodate the differing dimensions. Now, add in that the powder charge will burn at a different rate, plus the fit of the bullet in the bore, too, and I don't see where the "tight tolerances" have much to do at all with the variation of a bullets impact on the target. There are a lot of other more important factors that govern accuracy more than whether a bolt is too tight or loose in the action.

As for weight, the target rifle uses it to reduce muscle tremors from moving the point of aim as rapidly. If a 13 pound target rifle is good, then a 30 pound one would be better, and for some shooters chasing the smallest possible group size, a 300 pound rifle isn't out of the question. They are bench guns, nearly impossible to shoot from a shoulder hold. Weight has a stabilizing affect on repeatable accuracy but when hunting the hold on for a cold shot is what is really needed.

Yes, you could use a target rifle with long range accuracy hunting, but purpose built for long range use in a controlled setting, they are often equipped for bench or mat shooting with no compromises for field use. Like, having an extremely light trigger. Plenty of target rifles use 2 pound triggers or less, and at the range these are considered nearly mandatory. In the field, tho, they are too light and unsafe when carried loaded regardless of the safety mechanism. Over the century the light trigger in the field has proven to be a hazard - and because of that military and defensive arms usually have a minimum 6 pound trigger. When crossing rough terrain stalking a better shot of a game animal that is in sight, it's not a good thing to go stumbling around with a light trigger that can easily go off.

More than a few have shot inadvertently at the wrong time, shot themselves, or shot their hunting companion.

In either case, the general shooting public scoffs at both arguments and goes on taking guns fitted to shoot indoors only, with target triggers suitable for position competition and state "I've never done it wrong yet." Nonetheless we read of folks who equipped with more appropriate firearms still having issues with handling a loaded gun but shooting when they didn't choose to.

Given the polar opposites of target shooting and field shooting, it's not a good thing to try to blend them into one all purpose gun. There's nothing wrong with a highly precise field gun being used on the range, but it's not optimized for it. And using a ruggedized target gun in the field tends to degrade the safety of the shooter, as a heavy rifle will bring on fatigue at the end of the day, sitting in a stand or stalking, and that is when people make poor decisions about gun handling or simply being able to get out of the woods.

I suppose it could be done, but the results will work out about as well as trying to make a Jeep a land speed record race car - or installing 4WD in a Ferrari. Which humans are prone to do, but it doesn't work as well as the appropriate tool for the job used for it's specific need.
 
What's their average first shot miss distance at those ranges?

My understanding is that these ultra long range animal shooters usually have a spotter with them. They shoot at something inanimate like a rock or tree stump and adjust their drop and drift as necessary. Supposedly the animals don't notice they're being shot at when you're that far away.

I'll never do it, personally. Excepting varmints of course, I'd probably take a 600 yard shot at a woodchuck with a snub nosed 357 mag if I could be 100% sure of my backdrop.
 
A long range target style hunting rifle was the basic idea of Remington's "Sendero" series, with heavy barrels in target type stocks offered in big game calibers. An concept popularized by "longer range "beanfield" shooting situations, and exploited by rifle maker Kenny Jerrett. Before that, Remington had offered their BDL Varmint weight rifles in big game calibers. Attached are photos of a Remington 700 Varmint weight barreled rifle in .25/06, a more or less typical "beanfield" combination.

That's how I started groundhog hunting in Ohio 38 years ago. I knew nothing about rifles when I went to purchase one. Luckily the clerk behind the counter did. He explained the reason for the heavy barrel and what type rifle I needed but never suggested a caliber. I chose the .25-06 in a varmint special with the thought that I may want to go deer hunting some time in the future. It was overkill for groundhogs but it could shoot really well on windy days at long distances.

When it came to actually hunting groundhogs that rifle made me look good compared to the rifles my friends purchased. I still have that rifle but don't shoot it enough any more. It's gone deer and black bear hunting with me. It was heavy but I carried everywhere. I'm old now and the weight gets to me but it sure was a joy to shoot at longer distances.
 
My understanding is that these ultra long range animal shooters usually have a spotter with them. They shoot at something inanimate like a rock or tree stump and adjust their drop and drift as necessary. Supposedly the animals don't notice they're being shot at when you're that far away.

I'll never do it, personally. Excepting varmints of course, I'd probably take a 600 yard shot at a woodchuck with a snub nosed 357 mag if I could be 100% sure of my backdrop.

I can't say how many long range hunters do that, but I can tell you that the animals typically don't seem to care a whole lot when you're shooting at them from a great distance... especially if you're suppressed (and many long range shooters these days -- myself included -- shoot suppressed). My long range game of choice is usually prairie dogs. If you miss a p-dog at 700 yards they don't even seem to notice, unless you splash the bullet right at their feet. But, it gives you data and time to put the next shot right where it needs to be ;)
 
I wouldn't say your statement about 'few top ranked competitors' being able to make that shot at 500 yards is true. I'm not even a "top ranked competitor", and I routinely do this at distances beyond 500 yards at the start of a range session. I do shoot competitively, and I do shoot good gear that I know how to use. Putting a bullet on a pie plate at 500 yards (even a first round) isn't that difficult for people who enjoy this type of shooting. Is Joe Bob just going to be able to pull out his rusty (I mean trusty) old deer rifle and do this off of Kentucky Windage? No, certainly not. But, a serious shooter who routinely shoots long range won't have any trouble with that shot.
OK. You're one of the very few who can. Its not impossible, just rare. You're one out of more than 7800 registered on this site. If there's 78 who can, that's 1%.
 
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It's hard to hold a 12lb rifle for very long. And it's nice to able to do that when the target moves and parks behind something or when a decent shot is otherwise elusive. Or if you're twisted around shooting from the wrong side... etc. etc. Unless you're shooting over a bean field, being in a stand usually won't negate the weight of a heavy rifle IME.

I've taken the heavy gun out hunting though. And usually regretted it at some point in the day.
 
OK. You're one of the very few who can. Its not impossible, just rare. You're one out of more than 7800 registered on this site. If there's 78 who can, that's 1%.

I'm sure not trying to bill myself as anything special here, nor am I really trying to prove anything other than the fact that this is an achievable goal for most dedicated shooters.

You stated that a person shouldn't take a shot while hunting until they could get 4 out of 5 shots within 5 inches of the aiming point on their first shot (a 10" circle). I don't disagree with you there.

You also stated that "Few top ranked competitors do that at 500 yards with their first shot". I'd argue that virtually all top ranked competitors can do this, at least if you're talking about the right form of competition. That was my entire point. Hitting a 10" circle at 500 yards on the first shot isn't an unfathomable feat of marksmanship with today's equipment. I'm not even among the elite in the long range precision game, and I can do that. I watch people do that at the NRA Whittington Center Sporting Rifle Match every time I've gone down there... that's merely a regional level fun match where you're in the field, engaging 5-10" targets from various positions, over a variety of terrain, from around 200-875 yards, with only one shot per target, and no sighter shots. I'd have to pull out my chart again, but most of those shots are around or beyond 500 yards. The top scores in that match are usually in the mid 50's, which is better than a 4 out of 5 average, and that's just talking about a regional fun match. The top shooters at the National level PRS matches are usually even better, on average.

Your signature suggests that you do a lot of NRA high power. That's a challenging sport that requires a lot of ability, but it's also a very different game than the one I'm describing here, using entirely different equipment.
 
Look, long range hunting is very easily done if you put in the trigger time to practice. I take my custom target rifle deer hunting and it's 16lbs with my suppressor. And yes I hunt suppressed in Arkansas. I'm normally prone on a bipod anyway, and I too want every edge I can get to make a quick kill with a deliberately placed shot @ 500+ yards. With my 6.5-06, I wouldn't hesitate @ 600yds and in. Beyond 600yds, I am hesitant unless I am dead sure of wind calls. Saying that, I have taken a whitetail doe @ 875yds with a tremendously consistent wind and she fell right where she stood. The berger hybrid is an amazing round. Just get intimate with your rifle and get to really know her, her limits, and yours as well.
 
There's really only 1 tradeoff I can imagine for the type of hunting you describe which is very similar to my style of hunting. In the odd occurrence that you need to take a standing shot of any type, it's hard to do when rifles are not well balanced due to a long heavy barrel. Overpowered optics can also be problematic, but unless your running a big fixed power that's likely not an issue.

Heres my target/hunting gun (black). I will say I don't have nearly the range I used to have or else this wouldn't satisfy the target requirement in my mind. 22" 6.8spc heavy double star upper on Anderson lower, all Anderson internals, currently using a fixed 4 but soon to swap up to better glass. Shoots 2" at 320 (longest range available to shoot so far) and I can have 5 6" plates swinging in about 4 seconds at that range. It got built this fall and will be looking for hog and whitetail blood this year. It should. E good to 450 or 500.

Put your weight in the right spots and you can really do some good shootin in most situations. Stick the weight out front on a beanfield gun and you limit yourself to set shots.
 

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shooting the long range matchs(1000 yrds) in williamsport pa in the late 60,s, i shot a heavy(18lbs) 7mm mag with a redfield 3200 20x scope with 160 gr match bullet at 3000 fps and at one match i had over 30 inchs of wind drift. no nobody did good on that leg as the wind was howling. the groups we shot back then look like they were shot from a smooth bore compared to the groups shot today by the rifles-powder,bullets and scopes available to the long range shooters. eastbank.

In that same time frame, the 60s and through the 1970s, some of the long range shooters used to hunt just off US 322 north of Lewistown and shot across the reservoir. They had a surplus optical range finder like you would use on a ship as some of the shots approached 1400 yards. Some of the rifles were built by Alex Hoyer and Howard Wolfe and would really shoot. I was just a kid then but I found that so fascinating.
 
Look, long range hunting is very easily done if you put in the trigger time to practice. I take my custom target rifle deer hunting and it's 16lbs with my suppressor. And yes I hunt suppressed in Arkansas. I'm normally prone on a bipod anyway, and I too want every edge I can get to make a quick kill with a deliberately placed shot @ 500+ yards. With my 6.5-06, I wouldn't hesitate @ 600yds and in. Beyond 600yds, I am hesitant unless I am dead sure of wind calls. Saying that, I have taken a whitetail doe @ 875yds with a tremendously consistent wind and she fell right where she stood. The berger hybrid is an amazing round. Just get intimate with your rifle and get to really know her, her limits, and yours as well.

Not to drive this off topic, but I do love that 140 grain Berger Hybrid in 6.5mm (I'm running a .260 Remington).
 
salenn322, i shot acrossed the dam in the seven mountins with those group of shooters several times, and knew alex hoyer very well. if you shot to the left where the water came in you could get close to 1400yrds. we set up eary in the morning with small benches and chairs with good bio,s and spotting scopes to look for deer, i had a unertl team spotter telescope and a barr&stroud ww-2 split image range finder and shot a 7mm mag.. when the new narrows bypass came thru the narrows alex,s small shop was torn down,long after his death. alex would shoot acrossed the river at rocks with his 6.5x300 wright weatherby hoyer wildcat he built(the same cartridge weatherby is making now). he also played with the .50 cal built on rebarreled english boys rifle,i think it weighed close to 40 lbs. at 73 those days of lugging heavy bench guns around in the woods are gone and 10 pound rifles are my limit.eastbank.
 
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I deer hunted with my FN SPR last year

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There is a HUGE difference between a "target rifle" - colloquial for benchrest or F-class type heavy rifle - and a heavy barreled hunting rifle. Even within "target" rifles, there's a lot of varation. My hunting rifles look a lot more like target rifles than my CMP Service Rifle, which looks very different than my old F-class rig, or my 3 gun rig, or my new Practical Precision Rifle rig.

The Sendero is an example of a heavy barreled hunting rifle. A true competition rifle, specialized for its unique rulebook, has little utility in the hunting field.

For rifle hunting, I almost exclusively use heavy barreled rifles. I'm still fit enough to carry any rifle weight I so desire, even over miles and miles that guys with hyperlights always like to brag about. Putting on a 6mile long stalk with an 13lb rifle and a 40lb week pack doesn't break my heart.
 
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