Model 70 vs Model 700 accuracy...

[cdb1]

I’ve heard that too but doubt it’s based on facts.

You could be right, I certainly don’t know.

 

[marksman13]

I’ve heard that too but doubt it’s based on facts.

If anyone has any info that would support this I’d love to hear it

This is really what I was getting at with my original post.

 

[Varminterror]

I personally opine the cultural belief that push feeders are superior to controlled round feeders is at least partially due to the shift of benchrest records from mauser & win actions to the 700, and assuredly partly due to the military shift from the 70 to the 700 for “sniping applications”.

But I’d also respect the fact, despite availability and well understood design, a ridiculously large majority of competitive shooters, given choice of anything they desire, choose push feeders.

 

[ether]

This is really what I was getting at with my original post.

It's going to be Ford vs. Chevy all day long. If you can afford to have a custom rifle built, you've already priced me out of my opinion. A good smith can make a great gun out of either action. I think the Model 70 has the better receiver, action and safety, but there are plenty that disagree with me. Which do you prefer? That's all that matters. Let a good smith take it from there.

 

[Slamfire]

When I first started shooting NRA Across the Course (XTC) there were two primary match rifle actions, (M70 and M700) and one service rifle: the M1a.

This was in the day when you held your rifle in your hands, you did not use a 600 lb concrete bench to steady your bipod mounted weapon. Shooters fired standing, sitting rapid fire, prone rapid fire, and prone slow fire. The only position you could not use a sling was standing. Shooters used iron sights. The action was not the limiting factor in accuracy, it was the human. The bench sports and F Class have to use smaller scoring rings, because the error induced by holding your rifle has been eliminated. The NRA target was a 2 MOA affair for the ten ring, and a perfect score, front to back, was rare.

In so far as actions, I preferred the pre 64 M70 with a claw. It was a smooth and slick action. About the only thing that broke was the nose on the firing pin.



If you always fed from the magazine your extractor lasted forever. If you required the extractor to snap over the rim, it would break in time. The M700 action was a lot less than a pre 64 M70, as I recall you could buy M700 actions but had to buy a M70 rifle. Winchester did not sell actions. M700 were very popular, the extractors would wear out, and so would the push feed M70 extractors. AR15 extractors wear out too, so don't get judgemental. There were very few aftermarket parts, such as sight bases, triggers, clip slot attachments, etc for anything else other than M700's and M70's.

I shot out the 30-06 barrel on this NM pre 64 and installed a couple of 308 Win barrels. Cloward was a master gunsmith, I preferred the Dunlop style, the pistol grip was closer to the trigger, but I shot lots of cleans with this rifle. Jim Cloward was a National Champion back in the 1960's. I tried calling and writing him this year, looking for his handstop, and I fear Jim Cloward is no longer with us.



This is a classic action, I had to send the cheekpiece back to McMillian to notch. When I assembled the rifle I had irons on it. And, at the time, no one was using huge scopes, and so the cheek piece did not have to be raised so high.



this was shot, prone with a sling, with irons, with a M70. Twenty shots and a crossfire! This shooter won the Wimbleton one year.



same shooter, another year



I did this with a classic M70



Even sporter M70's will shoot well, with a good barrel.









The good F Class shooters I know are using Barnard actions and Panda Stoll's. These are massive actions, single shot only, often the bolt face is not cut for an ejector. You put your finger in the loading port and tip the fired case out.

If you don't care about portability or magazine feed, there are a whole bunch of actions other than the M70 or M700 that you will like.

 

[Reloadron]

I’ve heard all of my life that’s it’s push feed vs CRF and accuracy goes to push feed. There’s got to be a reason other than aftermarket parts availability that the vast majority of competition rifles are push feed. I’m sure though a good gunsmith could make a CRF rifle as accurate as a push feed.

I think we have all heard that. Most times I have it has been in gun shop banter and I can't think of anyone to ask and know I would get a good answer. I would be interested in the "why" with the explanation. Once we feed be it one way or the other that cartridge is snug in it's chamber with a breach face snug on it. Preferably a well lapped true breach face (OK Bolt Face). When showtime comes as long as that bullet center axis line is true to barrel center line how much would how it got there (feed) really matter? A lapped bolt face and let's not forget lapped bolt lugs.I really don't see how much how the cartridge got there matters.

Ron

 

[mcb]

The Remington 700 has the "three rings of steel". They used this moniker as an advertising ploy and claimed that it was the stronger action, and there is some truth to that but there is also an accuracy benefit that is likely more important. The three rings being the receiver, the barrel, and the completely enclosing bolt head. The barrel is obviously screwed in the receiver. The push feed bolt than completely enclosed the case head and then the bolt head is supported by entering a counter-bored recess in the end of the barrel. This interlocking rings of support around the case head is both strong, symmetric and consistently concentric when done right. This same level of symmetry and concentricity is not as easily achieved with a Model 70.

 

[Reloadron]

The good F Class shooters I know are using Barnard actions and Panda Stoll's.

Short action about $1500
Long Action about $1550

They are made by Kelbly's, the range I shoot at. Originally designed by by Ralph W. Stolle and likely the most popular action built for F Class. I have seen these actions perform and while numbers and records don't like I always had an issue warming up to an aluminum action. I need to get over that quirk.

Ron

 

[mdThanatos]

If you are looking at a $2000 price tag for just the action, barrel and trigger, I think you could probably get a better setup than a Remington or Winchester factory action. If you are set on going with either the 700 or the 70, then I would go with the 700 for easier selection of chassis and accessories.

 

[<*(((><]

Take your 270 barrel off and fit a chambering of your choice to it. Lots of good options in the 30-06 family. You say you want long range well, 280ai would be a great choice, but the 270 is no slouch either, it just doesn't have the higher BC bullets that surround it's caliber in the 6.5's and 7's.

If one is high into shooting competitions I get going with a custom action but for those who aren’t competing day in and day out a commercial action, chambered and tuned by a good gunsmith goes a LONG ways.

 

[Slamfire]

The Remington 700 has the "three rings of steel". They used this moniker as an advertising ploy and claimed that it was the stronger action, and there is some truth to that but there is also an accuracy benefit that is likely more important. The three rings being the receiver, the barrel, and the completely enclosing bolt head. The barrel is obviously screwed in the receiver. The push feed bolt than completely enclosed the case head and then the bolt head is supported by entering a counter-bored recess in the end of the barrel. This interlocking rings of support around the case head is both strong, symmetric and consistently concentric when done right. This same level of symmetry and concentricity is not as easily achieved with a Model 70.

There is no doubt that the Rem 700 provides better gas protection from a burst case head and that case head support will keep the action from bursting at pressures that could rupture the receiver ring in many types of rifles.



Never, ever cut the M700 bolt face for one of those external extractors. You will shoot your eye out!










Blow up strength is just one aspect of action design, but regardless of action, always wear your shooting glasses!

 

[Glockula]

Here's my .02$.

I believe the model 70 to be a better rifle in the field. I can't speak for all 700s but mine is an 80s bdl in 30-06. The two position safety never locks the bolt. With the rifle on safe the bolt can be pushed out of battery walking around the woods. No thanks. My Weatherby, Savages, Winchester M70 and Browning bolt guns lock the bolt when the safety is fully engaged. This to me is a deal breaker for any serious upgrades and money put into my 700. It is very accurate and a great shooter and if I was looking for a range rifle to soup up I would consider it. All of my rifles get some field use other than the safe queen milsurps and that 700.

My Model 70 in 300wsm is probably the best base I have seen for a custom project. Better fit, finish and design than savage. More aftermarket support than Browning or weatherby. If I was going to dump some money into one rifle to have the action trued, install and bed a nice stock and put a Timney trigger in. Might have a Smith put an aftermarket barrel on if it wasn't where I wanted it after that.

Take this advice for what it is, free. Good luck and have fun with the project.

 

[mcb]

There is no doubt that the Rem 700 provides better gas protection from a burst case head and that case head support will keep the action from bursting at pressures that could rupture the receiver ring in many types of rifles.

View attachment 892924

Never, ever cut the M700 bolt face for one of those external extractors. You will shoot your eye out!

View attachment 892925

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View attachment 892927




Blow up strength is just one aspect of action design, but regardless of action, always wear your shooting glasses!

Thanks for the cutaway picture of the 700. I could not find a picture like that last night to go with my post to save my butt.

 

[MZ5]

The symmetrical nature of a piece of pipe (tubular steel receivers like Rem 700 & Savage 110) is inherently superior to the significantly asymmetrical flat-bottom receivers in terms of what happens to the actions when the rifle is fired. Harold Vaughn’s book Rifle Accuracy Facts has excellent instrumented testing of the forces and moments on the receiver of a bolt rifle when fired, for anyone who is interested in the technical details and the ‘proof.’

That said, you’re unlikely to see the difference with a field gun so long as a gun of each receiver style is carefully and properly made.

 

[Offfhand]

I’m about to have a custom rifle built. I’m going with a 300 Win Mag for sure. The idea is to have a very accurate, long range hunting rig. My personal experience has been that factory 700s shoot better than factory 70s, but what about the actions themselves. Can a Model 70 action be made to shoot as well as a Model 700 action? Are there limiting factors to how well a Model 70 action can be made to shoot?

First of all, let's go back to talking about what we're talking about. The OP says he wants a custom built long range hunting rifle. He doesn't say anything about wanting a target rifle, so advise and opinions about targets and target rifles are beside the point. The topic is hunting rifles. "Are there limiting factors to how well a Model 70 can be made to shoot" he asks. Of course there are limiting factors, a whole bunch of them: As long as rifles are fired by primitive mechanisms with springs and manual triggers there are, and will be, burdensome limitations. Several years ago Remington made a valiant effort to drag rifle technology into the 21st Century with the Etronx system but the hunting public (us) quickly let them know we wanted no part of it. As to which action, the Model-70 Winchester or Reminton M-700 has the greater accuracy potential is basically irrelevant in a hunting rifle because other factors are of far greater importance. Beginning with the actual building of a "custom" rifle. Is it to be an actual one-off custom creation or only an assembly of commonly available screwed together stock, barrel, action, trigger, etc? And who puts them together can a big wild-card limitation. And will the final product justify the effort and expense? And performance aside, will it be be pleasing to simply own and look at? (Call this the hunting camp factor.) I've been down that road because I've had a few experiences with "custom" hunting rifles built around M-70 and 700 actions and here are a couple rather nice ones: A M-700 at top and Winchester below.. .

 

[Nature Boy]

IMO, The differences in inherent accuracy potential between the two designs will be small enough to be washed out buy other factors common to rifles configured for hunting applications.

1. Bullet seating depth is a critical variable when developing loads for optimal accuracy. Often the magazine limits the cartridge OAL and will force you to comprise by using bullets with tangent ogives, which are more tolerant to jump, but less aerodynamic.

2. For safety reasons, triggers used for hunting rigs generally have heavier pull weights. The Timney on my FNchester is set ~2 lbs, where the trigger on my Kelbly is ~6 oz. There’s no way I’d carry that to the field (hell, it doesn’t even have a safety

3. Ergonomics of a hunting stock, with a short, rounded forearm, lighter weight and absence of an adjustable cheek piece (I compromised here and had one included on my custom rig at the sacrifice of additional weight) all combine to equal less stability when shooting from a bench as compared to a target rifle.

I say all of this because having realistic expectations going into this is important for your satisfaction and sanity

PS. I was typing my response at the same time @Offfhand was posting his. I think we are saying the same thing, he just said it better, with some beautiful examples for emphasis

 

[<*(((><]

@offhand and @Nature Boy

Couldn't agree more, I tried getting to your point in my previous post. But you both said it better than I. It always comes down to intended purpose of the rifle.

For me a long range hunting rifle would start with certain M70 actions because it has some key features that I want in a hunting rifle (excellent extractor, CRF, three position safety, coned breech). For a precision target rifle I would be headed in the direction of a 700 action, for it's advantages over the M70 action (easier to gunsmith and true, commonality of parts and aftermarket support).

For long range hunting the difference in accuracy between an M70 and a 700 action assembled with the same amount of care by a gunsmith knowledgeable in said action would be negligible in my opinion; so I go for the benefits afforded the M70 action for the task at hand.

For precision rifle shooting the difference in accuracy could (I suppose) make the difference in winning or not winning a match based on extreme accuracy. But the main benefits I would be going after would be the aftermarket support of the 700 in this instance. Parts are cheaper and more readily available, there has been greater innovation in the 700 aftermarket to take advantage of. And the benefits of the M70 action don't matter much when sitting at a bench.

This is just how I analyze this topic, and why I spent $1,800 on a M70 where I could have spent $1,800-1,900 on a factory 700 actioned rifle that would have been comparable. With someone who already owns an M70 action as yourself you are halfway to the amount I spent on my build. I could have got to it cheaper with a Kimber, but wanted to try out a Proof Barrel.

It's not right or wrong, it's what makes sense for the use and person. All of my thoughts are coming from someone who doesn't have near the expertise or experiences as many on this board to be sure.

 

[taliv]

As for custom actions, in my limited personal experience...I've always been a fan of 700's. I can take them out and treat them like a tool and expect them to work. With the custom actions, they are kind of like a girlfriend. You have to love them and treat them right or they'll give you trouble. You can loosen the specs up a bit to make them not so troublesome, but by the time you do that, you could have just used a stock action. But...believe me, I'm no rifle builder. talk to someone that knows.

this is very misleading. Most of the reason custom actions exist is to fix problems with the rem700. for instance, longer tenon, integral lug, integral rail, and a one piece bolt handle instead of a handle that's soldered on. all of those things mean a rifle is more likely to take a beating and still hold zero. i could go on and on about improvements, but what you're thinking is probably a result of a lot of custom chambered barrels that are tight fit, and custom actions for benchrest with very tight clearances. those benchrest features do indeed mean one needs to pay attention to cleaning it and that it will have stoppages if you get dust or mud in it.

As a practical matter I would not want a hunting rifle with a 700 safety just due to poor design even if that particular rifle was safe (and no 700 that Remington has ever made has ever been safe without the installation of aftermarket parts - see the recalls). So that right there wo

fortunately, being left handed, most of my custom rifles don't even have safeties. i don't want them at all. raising the bolt handle is my safety

Never, ever cut the M700 bolt face for one of those external extractors. You will shoot your eye out!

all but one of my custom actions that were based on a rem700 bolt, had a mini-m16 style extractor. and probably almost everyone shooting PRS. these are vastly superior to the lame ring in a cutout inside the 700. if you're saying that modifying a bolt that has that cutout is dangerous, idk. maybe. but for sure, there's no problems with safety with this style of extractor on a custom action (which probably does not have the cut for the ring)

Several years ago Remington made a valiant effort to drag rifle technology into the 21st Century with the Etronx system but the hunting public (us) quickly let them know we wanted no part of it.

hey don't blame me! i bought two of them! one was most accurate gun i've ever owned.

 

[mcb]

I want to throw a bigger piece of lead down range at pigs. My 6.5 Creedmoor gets down range just fine. I want something bigger at 800-1000 yards for pigs. The Army has had decent success with 300 Win Mag for a long time and ammo can be picked up fairly cheap compared to some of the boutique long range rounds out there.

Having put a fair number of rounds through a M2010 I can say that the Army gets decent accuracy... despite it being 300 Win Mag. The accuracy is not as good as they would like, very finicky, and somewhat limited by that belted magnum cartridge. There are better magnum 30 cal options and the army is moving that was with some of their new rifles like 300 Norma Mag and 300 PRC. If I was building a long range hunting hunting gun in a 30 cal cartridge, 300 Win Mag would be near the bottom of the list. 300 PRC if you want to run super heavy for caliber bullets and 300 RUM if you want to run slightly lighter bullets at higher velocities would be the two at the top of my list. And I would be doing either one on a M700 action over a M70 action. 300 Norma Mag (and any cartridge based on 416 Rigby case head) and the 700 action are not a great combination simply due to the 700 bolt not being large enough to do it properly. YMMV

 

[Gordon]

This is a very interesting thread for me, some of your beautiful photo abilities are my eternal envy and your experiences and engineering wisdom priceless.
Back in late 70s I graduated college finally , after starting in 1965 and being interrupted by war and children for a decade. My earning started to climb enough to indulge my thirst for unusual firearms. Having cut my teeth on "Only accurate rifles are interesting" and fortunate enough to live close to San Jose Calif. where Lee Six and Chet Brown were starting to do new things with accuracy in building rifles with fiberglass stocks I was fortunate. I also lived close to Hollister Calif. and had connections to the weird world of ultra long range Varmint rifle experimentation with it's giant 30 pound guns with enormous Unertl Programmer scopes and weird quick twist "Timken Steel " barrels with 900 yard hits on ground squirrels was happening. I grew up in the East Coast among the famed Penn. and NY State gunsmiths involved in the "woodchucking" sport .
I became involved with Chet Brown and to a lesser extent Lee Six as they began producing Fiberglass stocked rifles . Lee Six went the bench rest game and Chet Brown went the "Sporter" route. I soon became a Chet Brown garage groupie and brought him many customers also. Chet had alot of engineering thoughts behind the type of actions he used. He and Lee Six started using the Rem 700 TYPE early on exclusively as they could be made most competitive in target sports, they agreed the 40x action, especially the solid bottom single shot model were hard to beat. They both were working with Shilen Barrels at the time and Shilen made them special lots . Chet hooked up with some Austrailian gunsmith who used Chet's Bridgeport mill and lathes to "blueprint" . the Remington 700 and 600 actions . The Remington 600 action was the hot hook up at that late 70s time as it was stiffer with a faster lock time than the 700 was capable of with mid or short cartridges. I became a Rem 600 junkie as I started into training with Col Cooper in early 80s and was introduced to the "scout rifle" concept.. At the same period I started really hunting the Western United States and was in search of "mountain rifles" . Then my taste changed to flyweight .308 Carbines as a do all hunting gun to solve all my needs and the trick was good accuracy with a soda straw barrel and machined down components. I also had to have a long range precision gun and because of my choice in calibers like .25-06 and .264 Win Mag had Chet make up those on pre 64 Winchester Model 70 actions. My first real hunting rifle was given to me at 18 when my uncle gave me a lovingly used 1953 Winchester Model 70 in .270 Winchester with a 4x Unertl Hawk scope with a string of graduated for range dots in it. I still have that rifle ! I been collecting pre 64 Winchesters ever since ! I also had Chet make me a Remington 700 .375 H&H (actually .375 Weatherby) that feeds upside down ! I don't exactly know how he got the extractor to grab as it strips shell out of the mag but it does. It proved it self in Alaska and Africa . Anyway I think the two actions Rem 700 and refined Winchester Model 70 coned breech claw extractors can be equal for field accuracy but in rested competition r the Remington 700 style has an advantage IMHO. I like both but there IS something about a good Model 70 actioned gun that makes me all warm and fuzzy.

 

[ATLDave]

This is a very interesting thread for me,.

And yours is an interesting post. But, please, for the love of Jeff Cooper, could you throw a return/paragraph or two in that? I lost my place about 5 times reading it.

 

[marksman13]

Having put a fair number of rounds through a M2010 I can say that the Army gets decent accuracy... despite it being 300 Win Mag. The accuracy is not as good as they would like, very finicky, and somewhat limited by that belted magnum cartridge. There are better magnum 30 cal options and the army is moving that was with some of their new rifles like 300 Norma Mag and 300 PRC. If I was building a long range hunting hunting gun in a 30 cal cartridge, 300 Win Mag would be near the bottom of the list. 300 PRC if you want to run super heavy for caliber bullets and 300 RUM if you want to run slightly lighter bullets at higher velocities would be the two at the top of my list. And I would be doing either one on a M700 action over a M70 action. 300 Norma Mag (and any cartridge based on 416 Rigby case head) and the 700 action are not a great combination simply due to the 700 bolt not being large enough to do it properly. YMMV

Good info. My reasoning behind the 300 Win Mag is ammo availability. I don’t reload and don’t really plan to start. May have to dig deeper into the 300 PRC. If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of accuracy did you see with the M2010?

 

[mcb]

Good info. My reasoning behind the 300 Win Mag is ammo availability. I don’t reload and don’t really plan to start. May have to dig deeper into the 300 PRC. If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of accuracy did you see with the M2010?

If you not going to reload than 300 Win Mag probably is a very safe selection. 300 RUM is another fairly safe choice all though I don't think there will be as big a selection of ammo for 300 RUM as 300 Win Mag. That said I think the 300 RUM has enough of a market share there will always be ammo. 300 PRC is probably going to make it too but its too early to say and will somewhat depend on if the Army gets serious about it.

The m2010 is a minute of angle gun with ammo it likes, but its finicky. I have not found one that is substantially better than 1-MOA. I have shot both commercial and Mk 248 Mod 1 ammo in several different M2010's and on average it would be a roughly a 1.5 MOA gun with each gun usually (but not always) having one ammo that it would do ~1-MOA with.

 

[marksman13]

I said “long range hunting rifle”, but the truth is, I have a ton of hunting rifles. The hunting I’ll do with this rifle would be stuff like nilgai in Texas, maybe an elk, and a ton of pigs at extended distances. I have rifles that will do the job right now, but this is an excuse to buy another fun rifle. I was dear set on buying a Bergara Premier Ridgeback until I found a local smith offering to build a rifle for the same money with an accuracy guarantee.

 

[mcb]

I said “long range hunting rifle”, but the truth is, I have a ton of hunting rifles. The hunting I’ll do with this rifle would be stuff like nilgai in Texas, maybe an elk, and a ton of pigs at extended distances. I have rifles that will do the job right now, but this is an excuse to buy another fun rifle. I was dear set on buying a Bergara Premier Ridgeback until I found a local smith offering to build a rifle for the same money with an accuracy guarantee.

If you have a gunsmith willing to custom build you what you want for the price you like let him suggest the action. If they favor one type/brand that alone may be reason enough to use it since it will be an action they like working on and the one they have the most experience with.