Why not tell this person how you feel about her article..

[bg]

This lady from the Detroit Free Press gives her two cents worth regarding Fla's
new self defense bill SB436. Why not tell her how you feel about her article.
http://www.freep.com/voices/columnists/enichole14e_20050414.htm

 

[Rockrivr1]

Responded to her article. Good to hear about this legislation passing though.

 

[Werewolf]

My reply to the ignorant - uhhhh - reporter:

Nichole,

I read your article, "In Florida, a deadly license to use force, instead of Retreat", with interest. It reminded me of the naysayers of the last 20 years who have stated in every instance that when a state passes right to carry laws that its streets will run red with the blood of enraged out of control citizens packing their heat like cowboys of the old west.

History has given lie to that belief in 100% of the states that have passed must issue concealed carry laws.

History will give lie to your prediction that:

"What a nightmare Florida could have on its hands after empowering victims of road rage, robbery or domestic disputes to make instant life-and-death decisions. It's the sort of insanity that makes one cherish the miles separating us from them."

Americans are not the fire-breathing shoot'em up maniacs you would like your readers to believe. Nor are they the poor helpless souls dependent on the protection of the state you'd like them to be. All the Florida law in question does is give people the right to defend themselves from violent predators that attack them outside of their homes. It then protects them from a justice system that has for the past 50 years favored the criminal over the victim.

Wake up and smell the roses Nichole - in the real world there will always be bad people preying on good people. More often than not those paid to protect us will not be around to do it so it is increasingly important that we protect ourselves. The gnashing of nails, proselytizing, wishful thinking and could'a, would'a, should'a shouting will never change the fact that in the real world we are in the final analysis responsible for our own safety.

 

[Nitram68]

I replied that it was good to read that Gov.J.Bush was giving citizens more freedom and that perhaps criminals would think before committing a crime knowing that citizens could be armed and can legally protect themselves without retreat.

 

[mbs357]

Sounds like the same ol same ol 'blood in the streets' argument.
Still reading.
Couldn't read anymore, my brain hurts.
Good response, Werewolf.

 

[TarpleyG]

His pen stroke will make it 100 percent legal to use deadly force as a self-defense option in the Sunshine State. Anyone who thinks they're under attack could, as of Oct. 1, "meet force with force if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be and the force is necessary to prevent death."

How could this NOT be a good thing? I don't get it. Are we supposed to cower in fear and be beaten or shot to death by an adversary? What if you cannot retreat? What then? I am really speechless that there are people that think like this in this country or anywhere else for that matter.

Greg

 

[Standing Wolf]

How could this NOT be a good thing?

The overwhelming majority of convicted felons vote for representatives of the Democratic (sic) party. Is it starting to tally now?

 

[benewton]

Responded to the article...

Mentioned that the "blood in the streets" thing has been used forever, and hasn't happened.

Mentioned that she should check the numbers on bad cop shoots vrs bad CCW shoots.

Mentioned that the cops aren't charged with protecting any person, merely the society as a whole, which means that they're responsible for nothing, although I did forget to mention that their "safety" drives on traffic violations provide a significant portion of many community's budgets.

Mentioned that one shoots to live, not to kill.

And I've no hope that such a blockhead will ever change her ever so "rational" mind.

'course, she could get mugged....


benewton

 

[P5 Guy]

Bummer, now she won't be coming down to pay my taxes for me.

 

[beerslurpy]

Behold my even handed response email:

As a resident of the wonderful state of Florida who carries, I wanted to offer a contrasting opinion to your alarmist article.

Stand Your Ground does not change the instances in which self defense is legal or likely to be used. All it changes is the prosecutorial procedure AFTER an act of self defense has taken place. When someone is under attack, they dont carefully debate the finer points of the law before drawing their gun and shooting- they defend themselves and begin thinking clearly when the adrenaline has worn off. They are usually just grateful to be alive until they get prosecuted for murder.

Before, the burden of proof was upon the person who acted on self defense. A prosecutor wishing to make an example of someone could accuse them of not exahusting all possible avenues of retreat, and a long and difficult court battle would be before them. The person would have to prove, despite perfect hindsight, that there were not further means available for him to have retreated before using force. Many have wondered what this sort of second-guessing has to do with whether the use of force was justified or not.

After Stand Your Ground becomes law, a person still has to have a legitimate cause for using deadly force, but the case will be decided upon the merits of the use of force, not based on whether they exhausted all hypothetical avenues of retreat. It removes a great deal of uncertainty from the law. It also brings the law more closely into line with the moral judgment of someone's actions- if they were justified in using deadly force, it is legal- regardless of what alternatives hindsight may present.

I hope this helped

-jim

 

[Zundfolge]

How could this NOT be a good thing? I don't get it. Are we supposed to cower in fear and be beaten or shot to death by an adversary?

the simple answer is YES!

It is your DUTY to die ... in thats the entire point of gun control and laws against self defense ... YOU (that is the law abiding, tax paying, citizen) are to lay down and die every chance you get. This will justify the government from making more and more laws to control us; the law abiding (see my sig) because the surviving law abiding folk will DEMAND that government "do something".

Its easier to enslave a man who's begging for the chains then one who will fight when you try to put them on.

 

[Gray Peterson]

My responce

Dear Nicole,

I'm hoping that you'll recieve this email, I'm sure you're getting flooded with email from "pro-gun" folk, some perhaps in not so flattering manner. I'm speaking to you as a gay man, who generally is moderate to liberal.

I'm neither a resident of Detroit nor Florida, but as a former Florida resident of 13 years, have my immediate family there, but a "blue stater" at heart, I do have to take some issue with the statements that were stated in your editorial. Though I do realize that editorials are about opinions, there are some facts that were stated that I believe are incorrect.

1. Florida concealed weapon or firearm license law was passed in 1987, not recently. They have not recently "relaxed" their firearms law. SB436 does nothing of the sort, because justifiable use of force is something that encompasses everything from hands, feet, fists, baseball bats, kitchen knives, folding knives, katanas, you get my drift.

2. Duty to Retreat has it's origins in English common law, however it is not applicable in every state. For example, my state, Washington State, has never had a "duty to retreat". Even with this law that Florida has passed, Washington's self defense law is still slightly better in that every provision of the self defense statute is well defined by the courts. We certainly don't have any sort of the problems that were indentified as possibly happening in Florida.

3. Duty to Retreat's transformation into something worse also has some of it's darker roots in racism. Duty to Retreat primarily exists in the south, and the northeast. In the south, Duty to Retreat has been used to prosecute certain disfavored minorities throughout history. I can tell you that in certain areas of Florida, if someone, say, myself, where with my partner, and a couple of bigoted criminals decided to pick just beating on us because we're holding hands at one point, me pulling out my self defense firearm could probably get me nailed on an assault with a deadly weapon charge. Why? Because neither myself or my partner "retreated", even though that we knew for certain that there was going to be serious bodily harm, and it also doesn't help if the local prosecutor, judge, and jury believes that we wouldn't have been beaten on if it we simply had kept our sexuality "private".

I'm sure as a fellow liberal (if I were to guess from your editorial ), I would think this would be unacceptable, no?

SB436 would eliminate that presumption, so that I don't have to refuse to love my partner the way other couples who are of opposite gender are. If some hick guy can kiss his girlfriend on the outside of his 1965 Ford Pickup truck with the Stars and Bars on his bumper, I sure as hell do the same with my partner on the outside of my Toyota Prius (don't have one, want one though) with the rainbow stickers on it to.

I look forward to your response. I'm hoping that we can have further discussions on this matter in a way that's beneficial to both of us.

Regards,

Lonnie Wilson

 

[grampster]

Here's what I sent....

Err..... Nichole,

Go back and read your article. You seem to be thinking that a person who is in fear of his life *must* step back and think about whether he/she should continue to exist. You object to the new Florida law for this reason. Your, conclusion, however, severely limits the innocent party.

The first rule of self defense in not thoughtful retreat. It's action!
The implication of this statement requires faith in the humanity of responsible people.

To follow your logic one must first submit to the notion that contemplation *must* occur when present actions by another cause you to fear for your very life. The only action here is limited by the fact it must be cerebral and not physical. Thus there is an a priori implication of error that could be fatal. Why? Because you are proscibing activity which causes additional stress during a stressful time. At the end of the day the continuance of the life of the innocent party should supercede the life of the aggessor.

What the author's of Florida's new law suggest is that a human needs to be free to protect himself by whatever means are available to him at the moment.

That law subscribes to the notion that innocent people most likely will resort to proper action when confronted with a situation. Therefore to be free to act brings personal responsibility. One should not fear another who is responsible.
The caveat to this statement is: In a free society, there will be danger. If you choose to live freely, then you accept the danger and add it to the spice of your life.

If everyone was personaly responsible for his acts or ommisions in a perfect world, that would be desireable. Unfortunately........
Cordially,

Dick Besser.

Your premis

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Wake up and smell the roses Nichole

There's "Wake up and smell the coffee," and there's "Take time to stop and smell the roses." Never heard them combined quite like that.

 

[HKGuns]

Your article clearly shows your failure to grasp the pertinent issues at
play in the issue you chose to write about.

Why should someone be prosecuted for defending themselves against an
attacker? Why should a law abiding citizen spend thousands of dollars to
defend him/herself when they are simply the victim of a violent crime and
chose not to stand idly by and let the perpetrator get away with it? There
are numerous cases of law abiding citizens being prosecuted by DA's who have
a political axe to grind. Where is their protection? Or, do you care more
about protecting the criminals? Do a little research before you write
complete tripe.

As a well trained, ex military, college graduate, concealed carry licensed
citizen of SE Michigan I find your uniformed view very dangerous to our
community. Its obvious you are afraid of guns and those who carry them.
However, I am willing to bet if you were being beaten and raped in an alley
you wouldn't hesitate to accept my armed intervention. However, my training
has taught me very clearly to consider very carefully the potential
ramifications of intervention. Why? Because I run the risk of being
prosecuted should deadly force be the necessary outcome. If I were to
intervene and put myself in danger of being attacked, would you want me to
run away so the perpetrator could continue his work? Or, would you rather I
simply walk by and hope the police happen to wander by your situation?

You have nothing to fear from me or the thousands of other law abiding, gun
carrying citizens. We've all had FBI background checks and are certified in
the use of small arms. I practice 2 - 3 times per week at a gun range so in
the unlikely event I ever need to use my weapon I can use it with the skill
necessary to eliminate the threat. I am not a part time cop, nor do I have
any intention of playing one. I detest violence on innocent people,
especially my family and will take whatever means is necessary to protect
them. I happen to find the use of a weapon as the most effective means.
Perhaps you prefer being a victim? That is your choice, but what makes you
think you have the right to make my choice for me? Pretty pretentious of you
now isn't it?

You should educate yourself before you write such an ill informed article.
The life that is saved one day just may be your own. I look forward to your
response.

 

[FunGunner]

I stopped fighting with facts long ago and have found that emotions will sway the clueless faster.

Ms. Christian
I read your article and have to say I have mixed emotions about your opinion on Florida Senate Bill 436. On one hand I agree that it would be useless in some parts of that state and in others it would save number of victims’ lives. Having grown up in Florida I have seen many sides of human nature and as a teenager the one I was forced to deal with the most was bullying. There are those that think because they are bigger and meaner, it is a license to act in any manner they choose. I have found that this behavior doesn't end with maturity or is restricted to one geographic area. I have faced that side of human nature many times since I left Florida, and due to my chosen profession I'll face it again. I have lived in that economic cast where the strong take what they want, and because of the current law I have to rely on someone else to protect me in my time of need, but instead of justice, I get a police report. For us here in the parts where you won't go, that Bill gives us a chance to stand up for what is right and not live in fear of our lives like I did every single day there. For you, that Bill scares you, because it means that we little people will no longer be kicked around, by the higher economic cast or any one that threatens our life, liberty, and happiness, and we will direct our own destiny from then on. That bill isn’t about killing it’s about living, and choosing ones fate.

FunGunner

Anyway I don't write much but I had to send something.

 

[Randall53]

This is what I wrote:

Ms. Christian,

Now, let me get this straight......According to you're thinking, if I'm awakened in the night and find that a man is dragging my child down the hall of my house with a gun in his hand, I'm supposed to retreat.......If I walk out of a quick mart and a man is choking my already unconcious wife through the window of the car, I'm supposed to retreat.....I look out my window and see a couple of strange men pushing my screaming child or the child of a neighbors towards their van, I'm supposed to retreat.....yeah RIGHT!!! I'll defend myself or my loved ones no matter what the law is Ms. Christian. My duty and God given right as a husband and father is to protect myself and my family at all costs!! This includes using deadly force if necessary. I don't need a thumbs up from politicians to do this.

Just sit back and watch the state of Florida become a much more friendly state. What you will see is the rate of violent crimes drop as most violent criminals exit the state of Florida and head north....Criminals like their victims defenseless you see! Unable to defend themselves and weaponless. The more defenseless the better for them! It gives them the opportunity to carry out their whims of their warped and wicked minds with impunity. They are much like a mad dog. If you retreat, they smell fear and will chase youa nd attack with a vigor!! Criminals are much in favor of gun control since 90% of them get their guns from illegal sources anyway.

Don't you think there are enough laws on the books protecting criminals already? I mean, They can't be arrested until AFTER they commit a crime and even if they go to jail they get free room, free board, free lawyers, free medical treatment, free dental work, free clothes, no restitution to their victims.....the list goes on and on.

Maybe all the violent criminals that leave Florida will eventually make it to Detroit and you will be lucky enough to someday show the world how to retreat if a violent criminal attacts you or a loved one. It will be a glorious day indeed when you show us all how to save the life of a loved one that's being physically assaulted, raped or murdered in their own home by RETREATING!!

I can't help but wonder how many people that were for gun control, or like Ms Christian, wanted to outlaw self defense in any form, have died at the hands of criminals while screaming for help? I can just imagine what their last totally helpless thoughts were......

 

[crashresidue]

Cheers,

When I clicked on this one - and read it, I shuddered - expecting "Flame ON" for the responses.

People, you've amazed me time and time again - both by your patience and your eloquence when dealing with "the anit-gun" BS.

I worked along side a "rape counseling" group in colledge, and on occasion - went out to assist them. One incident remains in my mind. One young woman stated - "Before I'll be raped again, I'll kill myself!" I responded "Why NOT kill him instead?" DEAD silence! "I don't know how to shoot a gun" - "I'll teach you!"

The "Womens Lib" (wow, that sure dates me!)group found out about this - and lived on my door step for weeks to get me to start a self-defense course for the women on campus.

I got a couple of "hand to hand" instructor involved, I demonstrated a "firearms course" and in about 6 months, all the interest died - because the "on campus" rapes stopped.

Did I teach "run away"? No way!

Gentle winds,
cr

 

[Brick]

Hello folks.â„¢

I can't help but wonder how many people that were for gun control, or like Ms Christian, wanted to outlaw self defense in any form, have died at the hands of criminals while screaming for help? I can just imagine what their last totally helpless thoughts were......

"Give me a 1911!....Please...gimme that SAA .44...uhhhhhhhhhhh...."

One young woman stated - "Before I'll be raped again, I'll kill myself!" I responded "Why NOT kill him instead?" DEAD silence! "I don't know how to shoot a gun" - "I'll teach you!"

Hey, wonder what would happen if I visited the "Sexual Assualt Prevention and Recovery" business not far from here and said that?

 

[crashresidue]

Cheers,

Hopefully, one of the women would ask to be taught how to protect her life - rather that how to dial 911 and wait to die!

Gentle winds,
cr

 

[Waitone]

Dear Esteemed Forum Members,

Does anyone know if Logic is taught in J-School?

Regards,
Waitone

 

[cookiemonster]

Dear Nichole,

Aren't you glad you live in America? Where you can practice your rights to free speech and expression? Where you can, if you want, cover yourself with liberal tripe and bellow from the rooftops that your sick and tired of the people that help to defend your home and freedom? Thats what your doing right now. What would you do if your cornered in an alley and four muggers are coming at you? IF you were, in fact NOT a liberal, carrying a concealed firearm. Would you ask them to please not attack me? Would you keep backing up, until you trip on somthing and could no longer defend yourself? Retreating, as you put it? I am going to tell you that, no, I do not have a concealed handgund license. I feel that I don't need one. Yet. I learned a few things when I was in the Army so I am somewhat capable of defense. I DO feel measureably safer with the knowledge that others are out there that have a concealed firearm. Look at the statistics...the ones that AREN'T doctored...about how often those firearms are used and in what capacity. In the classes you are required to take, you learn what type of ammunition you should use for personal defense...so you don't have to worry about the 90 year old or the 4 year old. You need to check your facts before you hang yourself out like this.
Respectfully,
Darrell Baughman


I could have said more, but I am still trying to wake up. lol

Darrell

 

[donkee]

Educational e-mail sent.......

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Lonnie Wilson, that was an excellent response. It was cordial, well-written, well thought-out, and very informative.

Also, I really love it when a member of one of the minorites that liberals love to make a public display of embracing and whose support they take for granted stands up to them and lets them know that those minorities are not always what ultra-leftists take them for. I hope you continue to take every opportunity to show the anti-crowd that it's not a bunch of beer-soaked hillbillies that they are dealing with.

Excellent work. If you get a response, I hope you share it with all of us.

 

[mbs357]

Lonnie Wilson, that was an excellent response.

+1
Not to say all the others weren't great. Good job peoples.