Why REHOLSTER a CCW?

[stevelyn]

Cos,

Here is an interesting article that addresses some of the points in this thread and my comments on your other thread that generated this one.

http://www.gunbast.com/RKCampbell_CCW.htm

I also recommend a training course too. I recommend it to everyone who has made the decision to carry a concealed handgun for personal protection. Training dispells some of the myths and misconceptions about CCW and defensive gun use in general. You'll also learn proper presentation and manipulation.....er more efficient manipulation becoming more comfortable with carrying.
And well.......you don't know what you don't know until you go through one of these classes.

You don't have to head off to the LethalThunderSight Gun Ranch either.

Steve McDaniel at Alaska Tactical is much more convenient and highly credentialed. Plus the training is more Alaska specific especially in the legal area, although I know you are an attorney....it still doesn't hurt to hear it again.

 

[roo_ster]

I once had a buddy who owned a car that could no longer use the "reverse" gear (poor college student). Sure, he could get where he going and navigate parking lots, but it took forethough and more time to do what I could do without a second thought. Also, if other folks did not react in the exact way he expected (parking in front of him for some reason, blocking his way forward in a lane, etc), he was in for a spot of trouble. I once had to help the guy push his car backwards in the middle of rush hour traffic. Not fun. (He had come up behind a stalled car & could not get around by going forward.)

Now, nobody would go out and buy a car lacking a reverse gear or a phone that lacked the numeral "5." I feel the same way about a holster. Re-holstering is just one of functions required for something to be called a "holster." Anything else is just a "fabric firearms pouch." The FFP may be the right answer in some situations: pockets & DEEP cover belly bands come to mind.

As to why would one re-holster a CCW, I can think of a baker's dozen right off the bat, some of which have been stated. The world does not stop turning after I draw my weapon.

Cosmo, you really owe it to yourself to get some quality gear to tote that SP101. Several quality manufacturers sell holster/belt combos. A good IWB holster (Milt Sparks VM2, HBE COM, etc) mated to a good belt is much more comfy than the Uncle Mikes clip-ons...and just as quick on & off*.

On the side topic of "What do you do with your weapon after a righteous shooting before the cops come?" Given time & proper security, I would reholster (& thereby re-conceal). Leaving your weapon lying unsecured is a bad idea. Weaponless hands in plain view accompanied by the calmest & most reassuring tone I can muster is the order of the moment. No shouting of "I have a GUN!" or "What do you want me to do with my gun!" or "I just shot this worthless meat sack!" No shouting at all, if I can communicate without raising my voice. I will inform them in general of what occurred and how they would like to proceed.

If I still have my weapon out when the cops arrive (due to lack of time or security), the weapon goes to the ground, my hands go up, and responsibility for securing the area and my weapon goes to the cops.

* Yes, I too was once an Uncle Mikes floppy IWB user.

 

[kikr]

Depends on your ROE. For me, I don't give two hoots about someone elses money. If some cannibal wants to rob the corner store they can have it. If I'm inside, I'm gonna fade to the back of the store and take cover with my weapon drawn. If the cannibal looks like he's going to shoot, I'll shoot. If not he walks out with the cash, I give a statement to the police and go home. Regardless, untill the gun goes bang I dont want anyone knowing its there. If I pull it and don't shoot it I want to put it away with one hand just as easily as it came out. Just one "for instance" to think about.

 

[Landor]

I think this is the most unthought about issue having to do with CCW. In my daily life I might have to unholster my gun 3 or four times a day. Re-holstering it can not be a problem because problems equal accidents. I wear a CTAC IWB and can honestly holster my gun with one hand. It sits at 4:00 and I don't even know it is there. I also use a leather belt with a plastic strip support. There are many reasons you may have to unholster your weapon that have nothing to do with using it. Weather it be a post office, church or some other reason. I can be sitting in my car and still holster it one handed. There are a lot of cheap holsters out there and some work great for what they are but the bottom line is you get what you pay for. I have tried many methods of carry. From $15 nylon holsters to belly bands to smart carry. All work to some degree for concealment but kydex in my opinion is the best answer for re-holstering. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ceetee]

Getting back to the knife-thrower-awayer for a minute... He's just commited a forcible felony. Most places allow the use of deadly force to prevent the comission of a forcible felony, and some allow it's use to prevent the escape of a person that's just committed the forcible felony.

One person posted that since he's visibly thrown his knife away, he's no longer capable of threatening you... Gotta call BS. I know lots of little guys that can beat bigger guys down into the dirt; life-threatening injuries are just as life-threatening whether they're caused by natural weapons (hands and feet) or artificial ones. If an "unarmed" man who has just comitted a forcible felony rushes at me, and I'm armed, He's showing the intent to do me harm, and therefore is gonna receive a series of hot lead injections until his intent has visibly changed.

That said, I've always been told that when you possess a firearm, that firearm should remain under your control, until your control is given over to another responsible party. I fail to see how you maintain control of a firearm that you've made safe and walked away from...

 

[Big Gay Al]

Carrying a firearm into a US Post Office is a Federal offense. Unless you want to be a test case and go to court to prove that having a ccw permit places us in the position of "other lawful use." Personally, I can't afford it. But if anyone else want's to try, go ahead, I'll give you 100% of my moral support.

Unless there's a cop present who tells me to lay my weapon down, it's not going out of my hand, except to return to my holster.

Yes, you really need to be able to RE-holster your weapon. Let's face it, very few of us will ever have a valid reason to pull our weapons to defend ourselves/others. Even fewer, will actually end up pulling the trigger. So, for those who pull it, then have no reason to keep it out, you NEED to be able to re-holster your weapon. Safely, and securely.

Think about it!!

 

[Cosmoline]

There's a lot of food for thought here, though I suspect the need to pull and re-holster is a lot more important to training and open carry LEO work than it is to day to day CCW. My big issue is that most of the "hard" holster options, whether kydex or leather, are geared for belt-based OWB or very high ride IWB. OWB doesn't conceal nearly well enough and high-ride IWB annoys me no end. Maybe it works for 1911's, I don't know. Also I rarely wear a belt and my winter pants are totally beltless.

The cheap-o soft Uncle Mikes is difficult to re-holster in, but it's a pretty easy matter to remove the entire holster and handgun in a single unit or to remove the holster alone, then re-insert as needed. When moving the handgun or removing it, the whole thing comes out in a single piece. SO IT IS NOT DRAWN. This is a nice plus in my book. It's also a very fast and trouble free draw. There are no clips or harnesses or anything else to get in the way. And the holster rides better than any other options I've tried on a much wider array of clothes, from formal suits to summer shorts to heavy winter thermals. It conceals perfectly. Unlike every one of the clip-on hard case IWB's I've seen, it rides nice and deep like a pocket. Not high and heavy with most of the pistol sticking out above the waist band.

I suspect that, as with many aspects of CCW conventional wisdom, we're learning from former LEO's and former military. While there is much good information from these sources, they do operate under a very different set of considerations. Among other things re-holstering is as vital as drawing for them, and they may have their iron out and back multiple times and have to do it without looking down. Barring some extraordinary set of circumstances, I don't see this happening much with me or a normal CCW holder. The circumstances where I've had to draw *without* shooting involve large hairy things that live here, and in that case it's been easy enough to pull the uncle mike's out, put the pistol back in and re-clip it. It takes me from ten seconds to thirty seconds to do this. If I need to be faster I just toss the pistol in my pocket, man purse or backpack. The firearm remains in my control, so I don't see the problem with this.

As far as what to do when the cops arrive, some very good points have been brought up. But again as long as the handgun remains in my control I don't see the problem. If unloading it and setting it in open sight is not an option, removing the holster, putting it in the holster and sticking it in a bag or back in my waistband would work as well. I like the idea of setting it in its holster at my feet as they arrive, then raising my palms high. They can proceed as needed from there.

 

[.45&TKD]

I CCW a full size 1911 in a Bianchi Model 100 Professional.

It is a clip on, and it does collapse, but it suits me.
I do not do live fire drills with it. (Tried it once. It was a PITA to reholster).
I do practice dryfire drills. The holster stays put, the gun draws easy, and the collapsed holster helps mobility, crouching done, etc.

I do not carry concealed all day long. I work out of my house. I pop the gun and the holster IWB when I leave and take the gun in the holster out when I get home. Its easy to put back on if I need extra protection to answer the door or sounds in the night. Its easy to slide on when I'm wearing shorts, no belt, etc. The clip works and the gun slides right out when I want it to.

I would use something different, with belt loops, and rigid holster mouth, if I was carrying concealed for 8-12 hours a day, though.

For range steel target competition I use OWB Galco Combat Master.

 

[Cosmoline]

Again, look how high that thing rides. The clip starts a full half way down the pistol, with the bulk of it above the pant line. This is why most IWB's should be called ABOVE the waist band. Their designs come from a long line of plainclothes LEO holsters, where genuine concealment wasn't really the issue and the flash of the stock from an open shirt wasn't a criminal offense. I like the Uncle Mike's because it functions as a true extra pocket, with the top of the holster just slightly above the pant line and all but the corner of the back of the pistol stock sticking out.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Cos . . . we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[.45&TKD]

My previous post had just a stock photo form Bianchi's website.
Attached is my Kimber TLE in the holster.

I never thought about it riding high. I'm not sure how it could ride lower without having to reach inside my pants to pull it out. All I can tell you is that it is comfortable, the draw is easy, and the holster stays put and sheeple would never know I was carrying. It does rest at a somewhat forward tilt when I carry it.

 

[Cosmoline]

Do you always keep your top shirt closed? I just can't figure how to conceal an IWB riding that high with an open shirt such as a sport coat. The shirt gets tossed back by the wind or something and there's your iron plain as day. Indeed not just your iron but a big piece of what is obviously leather holster!

Here are some examples of what I consider to be classic plainclothes rigs that don't cut the mustard when concealed MUST mean concealed. Great for a cop or for training at the range, not so great for someone facing charges for flashing:

 

[.45&TKD]

I'm in the heat in Phoenix.

I wear an undershirt or a wife beater in between me and the holster and an untucked polo shirt over that. To draw I lift my polo shirt with my weak hand. I have practiced this dry fire and its second nature.

In the cooler months I wear a sweater or sweat shirt and do the same thing.

I guess I could cover it with a sports jacket, but I'd be more concerned with wanting the take the jacket off, as when riding in the car. Of course, in AZ, open carry is legal too, so it doesn't matter much if someone gets a glimpse.

If I have to have a shirt tucked in I usually go with a SP101 DAO .357 in an Uncle Mikes pocket holster in the front pocket.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yeah but what happens if a wind lifts the shirt back? I've seen a lot of iron that way, which I suppose the fellows were trying to conceal. But I gotta tell you it ain't nearly as concealed as you think unless you keep that top shirt buttoned down.

 

[.45&TKD]

Cos, I wear pullover sweaters, pullover sweatwhirts, pullover polo shirts with no button down.

You are right. Any unbuttoned button down is a risk.

 

[JTW Jr.]

here is where I wear a rigid FORM FITTING to the gun holster ( IWB), about 18 years ago just after getting my CCW I was waiting for my Alessi to arrive. I was carrying my 1991a1 Compact model in a soft side ( uncle mikes ) IWB holster.

Well a ladies car broke down and was blocking traffic ( and Vegas drivers aint gonna cut you a break... they turn into kamikaze pilots and try to dive bomb the stranded car I swear ) .

Well I jumped out of the passenger side of my wifes car and offered to push the ladies car into the 7-11 parking lot.... another fella came to help. We had that car rolling pretty good when my 1991a1 Compact came out of that cheap holster and slid across the asphalt.

As I scooped it up and stuck it in my back pocket , embarrassed as all hell..the guy helping said " 1991a1 compact eh ? "...

I will never carry in a cheap holster again.....ever...even just around the house. And equally as important is a quality belt.

and for the record my handgun will be reholstered before LEO's arrive on the scene if I am involved in a shooting. call me crazy but I still have faith that if I do not threaten them there will be no reason to worry about LEO using force.

 

[Cosmoline]

Mine comes out if I flip it upside down. Otherwise it's in there deep enough it won't pop out. I've been hiking, biking and on a meat boat in heavy chop with it.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Ok, first, I carry all the time, but I don't carry concealed all day long. When I'm at home, it's UN-Concealed. When I go out in public, I put a vest, or other cover garment over it.

No, I don't button the cover garment closed. On a VERY windy day, I might button the bottom button. But I like my vest, best of all. It's one of those "tropical" type vests. Looks like a photographer's vest, even though it's not that expensive. It runs $24.99 from blair.com. It comes in two colors, khaki, and slate blue. The one I currently have is in khaki. But I think when I order again, (sometime next month) I'm going to order that one in blue.

It gives me pockets for carrying extra stuff, and I like it.

FYI, in Michigan, open carry is legal, so if the wind does blow my cover garment open, there's "no foul."

 

[roo_ster]

Do you always keep your top shirt closed? I just can't figure how to conceal an IWB riding that high with an open shirt such as a sport coat. The shirt gets tossed back by the wind or something and there's your iron plain as day. Indeed not just your iron but a big piece of what is obviously leather holster!
...
Yeah but what happens if a wind lifts the shirt back? I've seen a lot of iron that way, which I suppose the fellows were trying to conceal. But I gotta tell you it ain't nearly as concealed as you think unless you keep that top shirt buttoned down.

FWIW, the only time I know I was made packing a CCW was front-pocket carry. From the rear, the stainless butt & magwell could be discerned.

Button-down (BD) and non-button-down (NBD) (polos, pullovers, etc) both have different strengths & weaknesses.

NBD/buttoned BD is not as likely to blow up/out in wind & expose CCW, but it is more likely to print if the wearer bends over without being mindful of his CCW and taking care to "lift with your knees." Unbuttoned BD will just ride up a bit, but is not as likely not get pulled taut & print.

Unbuttoned BD is much easier to draw from concealment than NBD, period.

What to do about BD & wind? Be mindful. Button up one or more buttons if the wind is brisk. Or, use some of sm's advice & weight the front bottom corners of the open BD shirt. This will keep it down and speed your draw.

Also, matching belt & holster color helps, whatever the cover garment, as does pant or undershirt color.

Mine comes out if I flip it upside down. Otherwise it's in there deep enough it won't pop out. I've been hiking, biking and on a meat boat in heavy chop with it.

I would suggest that unless a holster stays in place and secures your weapon while running at top speed, high & low crawling, climbing, jumping about, and whatever else might be required to save your hide; the holster is inadequate. This includes going azz over teakettle. If someone can not perform some physical act through disability, I guess they could cross that act off the requirements. Most quality IWB and some OWB are up to the task.

Standing in place and shooting it out is a good way to get shot. I ain't Wyatt Earp.

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't intend to make it easy for an opponent to shoot me. I will move, shoot, (& communicate if I happen to be with fellow buddies who also CCW). Notice, I put move before shoot (if I have the time to draw I will shoot on the move, but this may not be feasable). I value saving my own skin before shooting the BG. Saving my skin is the objective; shooting is one of several means. If the BG gets away, but I am still unperofrated or otherwise without serious injury, it is a "win," in my eyes.

For instance, there are several long, waist-high concrete block & stucco barriers in one place I frequent. Standing next to one, all it would take to get cover is to lean into the barrier and flop over in a controlled fall (most likely backwards, maybe sideways). This could be done faster than drawing & firing and faster than the time it takes to read this. Do I want my CCW to go skittering down the walkway in the middle of obtaining cover? I don't think so.

Here are some examples of what I consider to be classic plainclothes rigs that don't cut the mustard...

For any of those rigs, the cover garment would have to rise above the belt for any sensitive bits to show. Blowing the cover to the side would not expose the weapon, as they are all behind the blade of the hip (with maybe the exception of the last).

Also, if the wearer had gone to the effort of matching belt & holster color, the cover would have to rise well above belt level to expose anyhting that might be construed as a firearm of firearm gear.

Last, if someone is still bothered by the possibility of exposure, a tuckable IWB design could cure what ails 'em. Hang some keys off the exposed strap & you're now just a guy with a key holder strap:


BTW, none of those rigs are high-rise, by any commonly held definition of "high-rise." The trigger guards are at or below the belt line. High-rise is usually seen only in some OWB designs. One of hte benefits of IWB is getting the firearm down a bit lower without sacrificing concealment.

High Rise for Revo:

High Rise for 1911:

As with anything, too much of "it" becomes a problem. If the weapon is too low/too high, it can be difficult to obtain a good grip in a hurry. You're either hiking your elbow to the sky (too high) or digging for purchase at the inadequate bit of grip exposed above the belt (too low).

-----------------

As with most things in life, cheap & gimmicky usually result in poor performance and more money down the road as lessons are learned.

 

[TallPine]

a piece of boot lace knotted to the proper length works just about as well as an UM IWB IMO

(but you would have to be wearing a belt... how do people get by without a belt??? mine also supports a folding knife in a sheath, flashlight in a homemade nylon webbing holster, a nylon UM 6 round loop type cartridge holder, some keys on a boot lace, and my VFD pager)

 

[KD5NRH]

(but you would have to be wearing a belt... how do people get by without a belt??? mine also supports a folding knife in a sheath, flashlight in a homemade nylon webbing holster, a nylon UM 6 round loop type cartridge holder, some keys on a boot lace, and my VFD pager)

Mine supports a pair of pants. Well, OK, it also holds the holsters down, but keeping my pants on is a good enough reason for me to have it.

FWIW, for the folks wondering about IWB and tuckable IWB, I have pics of my newest carry rigs at this site. Click any of the photos to enlarge. Note also that I don't wear them that far forward if I'm wearing them untucked; my Coronado vest doesn't blow around much, but it does tend to hang open far enough to expose a gun worn ahead of the side seam of the pants. With other cover garments, it just depends on my mood that day.

 

[Landor]

What I like about the CTAC is it is adjustable. The white line in this picture is your waist line. The holster is totally out of sight. If you use C clips or Velcro clips you would never see the holster without a weapon in it. In this picture you can see the sweat protector but I cut that off a while ago.

 

[Cosmoline]

Landor--that Comp-Tac looks promising. I'll keep my eye out for one.

 

[Charles S]

Landor,

I really like the CTAC holster.

Cosmoline,

You might want to try the CTAC, it holds the gun much lower than any other IWB holster I have tried.

suspect that, as with many aspects of CCW conventional wisdom, we're learning from former LEO's and former military. While there is much good information from these sources, they do operate under a very different set of considerations. Among other things re-holstering is as vital as drawing for them, and they may have their iron out and back multiple times and have to do it without looking down.

Cos, I do agree with you on this point. We do get most of our information from law and military, but that is, to date, the best source of applied knowledge. I would much prefer to learn from someone who has actually been there and done that than to make it up as I go along.

I also recommend a training course too. I recommend it to everyone who has made the decision to carry a concealed handgun for personal protection. Training dispells some of the myths and misconceptions about CCW and defensive gun use in general. You'll also learn proper presentation and manipulation.....er more efficient manipulation becoming more comfortable with carrying.
And well.......you don't know what you don't know until you go through one of these class

+++1!

One of the most important concepts, every who reads this post should understand is:

I'd rather reholster and have it on me. I want control of my firearm at all times until I turn it over to the responding officers. Seems like plain common sense to me.

It is common sense.

Charles

 

[Cosmoline]

I would much prefer to learn from someone who has actually been there and done that than to make it up as I go along.

Yeah, but been where and done what? I don't carry because I want to be a cop. None of us do. We carry for protection in the gravest extreme. I'm not going to be enforcing any laws or court orders, thankfully. Nor am I a uniformed officer (which is probably a good thing for the community at large). So why the fixation on learning from ex-cops?

That said, you guys have me looking seriously at leather and kydex.