Why should I re-join the NRA?

[rellascout]

Fear it or don't fear it, but ignore it at your peril.

Perfect example of fear peddling.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Warnings

Perfect example of fear peddling.

Assuming that the paragraph before that is a falsehood, then yes.

If I post a yellow sign on a winding cliff-side road showing a car driving over the edge of the precipice, am I peddling fear? Or am I warning of a potential -- a possibility -- knowing the physics of cars, guard rails, and gravity?

If I put that sign where I know it can't happen, I'm peddling fear. If they sign warns of a very real possibility, then it's information the driver needs.

If the driver, secure in the knowledge that there is no hazard, chooses to ridicule and sign and curse the agency that placed it, then so be it. If his response is, "they're just trying to scare us," then I'm afraid -- short of actually having it happen -- there's little I can do to convince him.

In that case, he's on his own.

Regardless, the cliff abides.

 

[rellascout]

There are powerful men working to negate our gun rights, and they have a variety of organizations which they either fund directly or arrange such funding. They are pleased when we squabble. They are pleased when we turn away from the NRA. Remember, these are men who care not a whit about "original intent" or about the propriety of the Constitution. These are men who want power and control, and for whom the ends justify the means. And they are at considerable pains to be "reasonable" about their positions.

Lets look at the paragraph... not a single syllogism. There is no conclusion following from a premise. What you do have is a vague statement about the boogiemen who do not interpert the Constitution the same way you do. You then claim, again don't prove, they are working towards a power grab which they will uses to what..... take our guns.

Sorry not a single hard fact. Not a single data point. Not a single logical conclusion can be drawn from your inference. Break it down it is a nice little oratory but it has no substance. If you are appealing to my mind trying to convience me you are right I would think logic, syllogism, conculsions which follow from their premises are required. You have done none of that. At your best you have attempted to argue from anology. The foundation of it is nothing but fear. So what else should I call it. Sophism? Is that a better term than fear peddling?

Sometimes when we within the shooting community have these dicussions we need to step back outside the bubble that is THR. We need to understand the huge assumptions we make when preaching to the choir. We need to remove the rhetoric. I agree with the OP very little said in this 8+ page thread that constiutes a logically domonstratable arguement for why we need to reup with the NRA.

In all seriousness I believe that we need to protect our gun rights. That there is legislation that is chipping away at our rights as I type I am just not convinced that this is still the central mission of the NRA. They are a marketing and money making machine first and foremost. A protector of our rights is secondary. That is my opinion, and I am not trying to prove that I am correct, and you are entitled to have a different one which clearly most of you do. If I was attempting to convience you to believe as I do I would present my thoughts in a completely different way.

 

[mrbladedude]

You shouldn't. At least some of your money is going toward unsolicited DVDs being sent to members homes. If you keep it they bill you if not you have to package it back up in a mailer and send it back....

Sorry but this one was the straw that broke the camels back. I personally will not be renewing.

I just got a DVD in the mail and a coin. They want me to send $12.95 or send back the DVD. I might send the $12.95 but what will happen if I dont send anything and just throw away or keep the stuff?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Prove?

There are powerful men working to negate our gun rights, and they have a variety of organizations which they either fund directly or arrange such funding. They are pleased when we squabble. They are pleased when we turn away from the NRA. Remember, these are men who care not a whit about "original intent" or about the propriety of the Constitution. These are men who want power and control, and for whom the ends justify the means. And they are at considerable pains to be "reasonable" about their positions.

Lets look at the paragraph... not a single syllogism. There is no conclusion following from a premise. What you do have is a vague statement about the bogeymen who do not interpret the Constitution the same way you do. You then claim, again don't prove, they are working towards a power grab which they will uses to what..... take our guns.

Sorry not a single hard fact. Not a single data point. Not a single logical conclusion can be drawn from your inference.

There was no attempted "proof" nor any "inference."

If your own research has not led you to this understanding, then I do not propose to do your research for you.

It is my good fortune to be married to a researcher. She routinely makes my hair a lighter shade of gray with the stuff she digs up. Okay, maybe "good" fortune is pushing it a bit.

However, you nonetheless state:

That there is legislation that is chipping away at our rights as I type

while disbelieving that there is anyone (or collection of anyones) of any consequence that have made it their mission to deprive us of those rights.

What, the legislation writes itself? The legislation is just someone's benign erroneous attempt at crime control? Where, I wonder, does all the regulation and legislation come from then, which we have spent so much time and treasure fighting?

If your belief is that the NRA just makes it all up to frighten the populace into funding its junkets, then far be it from me to attempt to persuade you otherwise.

I must have simply imagined that gun ownership and gun rights have been all but indoctrinated out of our culture, and that ever-increasing waves of hysterical, self-indulgent, entitlement-minded gen-whatever "adults" have entered the voter rolls over the last four decades, and that any of this might not have been accidental.

Believe what you like.

I will not make a project of persuading you to believe otherwise.

 

[Usmc-1]

asking members to retype well-reasoned arguments they have already made in the past simply because you don't want to search for them is wasteful of their time.
__________________

@Bartholomew Roberts

Im sure glad the National Rifle Association doesnt believe in your methods of getting membership , there would be no reason to have an NRA , specifically it would be dead ! If you are a member and dont want to give reasons why someone should join the NRA, you either dont have the answers or dont care ,both of those answers are dangerous! Im sorry but the NRA should welcome discussions as to why someone would want to be a member , the pro's and cons' it should be written in the contract for all members "that as a member it is your duty and obligation, to answer all questions about the NRA to non members , if you truley dont know the answers , seek guidance from an NRA counselor"
There should be an NRA 800 number , on your membership card , welcome all non members ,please!

At any rate , I think discussions about the pro's and con's of worthy charitable organizations should be voiced every couple months , it needs to be in everyones minds , not just members but non members as well , because many of those non members will become members , keep the debate alive!

SEMPER FIDELIS!
Usmc-1

 

[rellascout]

I just got a DVD in the mail and a coin. They want me to send $12.95 or send back the DVD. I might send the $12.95 but what will happen if I dont send anything and just throw away or keep the stuff?

Throw it in the trash but before you do make sure you write down the opt out number. It is a separate number, that is only available 9-5, than the main number where you opt out of all the other crap.

This is why I still got it even though I have opted out of all other mailings. Proof positive of the multi layered mailing lists of the NRA. So everyone who stated that you make one call and stop all mailing is DEAD WRONG!

 

[Frank Ettin]

There are powerful men working to negate our gun rights, and they have a variety of organizations which they either fund directly or arrange such funding. They are pleased when we squabble. They are pleased when we turn away from the NRA. Remember, these are men who care not a whit about "original intent" or about the propriety of the Constitution. These are men who want power and control, and for whom the ends justify the means. And they are at considerable pains to be "reasonable" about their positions.

Lets look at the paragraph... not a single syllogism. There is no conclusion following from a premise. What you do have is a vague statement about the boogiemen who do not interpert the Constitution the same way you do. You then claim, again don't prove, they are working towards a power grab which they will uses to what..... take our guns...

What's this business about "no syllogism." AG wasn't, as far as I can see, proposing a logical proposition. He was reporting current events.

Haven't you been following the machinations of the likes of Charles Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Michael Bloomberg, et al? Aren't these powerful people who are working to further public policy in derogation of gun rights?

...If you are a member and dont want to give reasons why someone should join the NRA, you either dont have the answers or dont care...

Actually, in this thread I've seen any number of reasons advanced for joining the NRA, and a number of members have explained why they are and remain members.

 

[Lord Teapot]

i'd avoid joining up. spend that money on another gun!
@ above post, NRA donates primarily to right wing political groups, that is not up for debate, but it makes sense because right wing groups/candidates are usually the ones who are gun friendly.

 

[Tomcat47]

Yes!

1) Rejoin....
2) Opt out...no call list....whatever!
(There Junk Mail is about 1/4 of what local grocery stores throw at me every month!)
3) Throw junk in trash, Burn it, Share it with friends and family.
4) Open New Magazine!
5) Read About Guns and Hunting and Kick Back In Recliner and Relax in your efforts Supporting Your 2A Rights. (Tomcat opening his new issue now.... )

 

[Neverwinter]

If you're the 800-pound rights-defending gorilla, and you stand there whistling and shuffling your feet at a clear infringement of rights, because you "don't see it as a rights issue," you have given green light to people who would otherwise stop short and say, "no, we ain't doin' that, the ACLU would be all over us, and we just can't afford that."

The criticism is that the ACLU has voiced a position against civilian ownership of firearms. At least try to get the premise right, otherwise your "proof" is meaningless.

Several people in this thread have the misunderstanding that the ACLU's stance on the 2nd amendment is somehow harmful and disqualifies them from being a civil rights organization.

The idea of inaction being aiding and abetting is pernicious. It would be the inverse of the Good Samaritan laws, whereby all who do not take action to assist become accomplices to the harm caused by another person. Another fault is the assertion that the ACLU is the yardstick from which the full measure of civil liberties is determined. That is the purview of the US Supreme Court. The ACLU defends a selected subset of civil liberties, and it does it well. If the ACLU gorilla is five colors, do you deny its status as a multi-color gorilla because it doesn't have all the colors? If it communicates to you that it doesn't think blue is a color and wouldn't support you in a fight to protect blue as a color, does the status of blue as a color become endangered or weakened?

I prefer to have more than one 800 pound gorilla, so I donate to the ACLU and NRA. So far they haven't interfered with each other.

<off-topic and personal remarks removed>

@above post, NRA donates primarily to right wing political groups, that is not up for debate, but it makes sense because right wing groups/candidates are usually the ones who are gun friendly.

There is nothing wrong with the support of candidates which are favorable to the civil liberties which they are trying to protect, regardless of their partisanship. The NRA does this because there are Democrats supportive of the 2nd amendment. The ACLU should be doing the same, but it should not be demanded of them to support Republicans a la affirmative action. If the Republican candidates in a region do not support the civil liberties that the ACLU supports, those candidates should not get endorsed.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

So . . .

In your opinion, one should support the NRA?

Do I grasp that correctly?

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Inaction

The idea of inaction being aiding and abetting is pernicious.

Well, taken out of context, I might be inclined to agree.

The context, however, is that defense of civil liberties is precisely the self-selected mission of the ACLU.

In that context, the highly visible absence of support for the Second Amendment is in effect an invitation to attack it.

More than that, they publicly proclaim (paraphrased) that "we don't believe in" the Second Amendment.

Nudge nudge, wink wink, as the Brits would say.

This isn't a random "good Samaritan" thing. This is an organization with a self-declared purpose of protecting the civil liberties of the individual, carefully executing a "carve-out" in it's coverage.

Pernicious? If I were advocating that everyone had a duty to intervene, and that the inaction of anyone was aiding and abetting, perhaps. That isn't the case.

This is a "super hero" defender-of-the-weak, whose mission statement has fine print that excludes the unworthy. Truth! Justice! And (80% of) the American way! (Void where prohibited or inconvenient.)

I will not dispute that they do some good.

But I will stop short of giving them a pass on this.

 

[toivo]

I don't understand why some people who have opted out still get a bunch of stuff. There must be some slackers in the mail-list department. I opted out, and I hardly get anything: just my membership info, the American Rifleman magazine, and a few pieces of mail -- like two or three -- around election time.

My pet peeve with the NRA is that they do too much fear-mongering. I'm not saying there is no cause for concern, but I just don't like the all the hyperventilating and hysteria. However, they are the most effective gun rights organization there is or has ever been. I think the gun rights picture in this country would be a lot bleaker without the NRA.

That said, I just don't like Wayne LaPierre. What can I say.

 

[azmjs]

The idea that rights are god-given is a dangerous and poisonous one.

All that is required to deprive someone of his "god given" rights is for there to be no god, or no state religion.

 

[Neverwinter]

In your opinion, one should support the NRA?

Do I grasp that correctly?

My answer is yes.

<off-topic and personal remarks removed>

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Civil Discussion?

So, lads, have we reached the end of civil discussion for this thread?

Some of the remarks are getting kinda personal, and I'm seeing a tendency to wander off into religious assertions.

Debate the principle, attack the argument.

If we're gonna roll in the mud, perhaps we should close this.

Your call.

 

[Ignition Override]

We all benefit from the NRA.

I've read a little about the early medieval cathedral schools, and their studies of the trivium and quadrivium subjects.
Not really remembering how to define syllogism, rhetoric or dialectic (or caring),
some of us will simply choose to continue memberships in the NRA, until a better organization is created.

 

[coloradokevin]

No don't renew, we got it. Just go along with the other 19 or 20 million gun owners that whine and complain and ride on the backs of 10% that are members.

With all due respect to yourself and any other STRONG supporters of the NRA, I really hate to see that attitude, and I see it all too often on gun forums these days.

Since when is the NRA the only organization that defends gun rights?

Since when do I need to join an organization to support my right to keep and bear arms?

Since when is it automatically assumed that the largest organization is the one that best defends our rights, or that it is the organization that best fits my political ideology?

What if these hypothetical non-members spend their time 'whining and complaining' to their elected officials about these important issues, or make an effort to become involved with campaigning on the part of politicians that believe in gun rights?

What if these non-members are spending their time trying to educate the uninformed, and/or introduce new shooters to these sports? Are those people really just "riding on [your] back"?

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with the NRA, and I have no specific gripe with the organization itself. But, no gun owner owes the NRA a membership, and no gun owner should have to feel like they aren't doing their part simply because they didn't join the NRA.

 

[azmjs]

It's the only organization that does any good defending gun rights.

The NRA has worked long and hard to amass the power that it has.

Consider that you want to buy a new gun. You can give X amount of dollars to Sig Sauer or H&K or Glock and get one of their expertly produced, proven, high quality, reliable, gold standard pistols, or else you can give the same amount of money to some guy with a CNC machine shop.

One way, you know you'll be getting your money's worth. The other, you probably won't get much good out of it.

Now sure, it's nice to try and support a start up, but lets say you've only got so much money, and you need a gun you know you can rely on, because you can only afford one.

If you can support the NRA and also support some boutique or novelty gun organization, great, go for it.

If you've got to choose though, the choice is the NRA.


--- ETA

In a way, you do owe the NRA your support. They've supported you for a long time. The climate of gun laws that you have the good luck and pleasure of living in is largely due to the work of the NRA.

It's hard to remember, when you're bummed out that things aren't the way you want them, but things could be much much worse.

Next time you ponder what you owe the NRA, try to remember the hundreds of restrictions and laws which you *aren't* subjected to because of the NRA's work. Gratitude, at the very least... but you can do more.

 

[Tim the student]

Any chance you folks arguing about the ACLU could make your own thread about that?

Why join the NRA? Because it is arguably the best organization that is fighting for your gun rights. If you don't want to join them, join one of the other organizations. If you don't want to do that, then please write well articulated letters to every single one of your elected officials.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Im sure glad the National Rifle Association doesnt believe in your methods of getting membership , there would be no reason to have an NRA , specifically it would be dead ! If you are a member and dont want to give reasons why someone should join the NRA, you either dont have the answers or dont care ,both of those answers are dangerous!

On the contrary, I've answered this question dozens of times, as a search would have shown you. Frankly, I am of the opinion that most of the people who start this discussion just want to talk and have about zero interest in learning anything. And let's face it, if you are too lazy to use the "Search" function on an Internet gun forum and can't understand why the NRA is a good thing for gun owners, I'd just as soon not have you as a member.

 

[sonick808]

please stop

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Your Wish . . .

please stop

. . . Is My Command.

Note, however, that I will be going back through the thread do do a little "housekeeping," wherein I will be removing personal slurs and grossly off-topic remarks.

Clearly the thread has lost focus, and I must claim part of that from my own participation.

Who knows? Maybe after some of the noise is removed . . . nah, it's been more than 7 pages; I'm amazed it's survived this long.