Why should I use hollow points?

[StrikeFire83]

Okay, so I’ve been reading a bunch about defensive loads, hollow points, etc. I’m still very much a novice, but all of this business about “lack of penetration” and “failure to expand” combined with the slightly lower reliability of hollow points in many semi autos, I guess I find myself asking…Why not just use FMJ for personal defense?

I have no experience in fatal shootings, but during the course of my dad’s service in Nicaragua he was forced to kill several Sandinistas and one Moskito indian. He said when pistols were used it was always FMJ, because that's all there was, and it seemed to get the job done.

In carrying for CCW, is it irresponsible to load your weapon with FMJ?

 

[kmrcstintn]

When NYPD was in the original conversion from revolvers to semiatuo 9mm handguns, they issued and used FMJ for a very short time; they were getting incidents of overpenetration and incidental and accidental shooting of innocent bystanders when FMJ would exit the targeted perpetrators they were aiming at; there are very few areas in law enforcement that use FMJ in the civilian sector (New Jersey is the exception that I know of because their legislature outlawed hollowpoints)

The vast majority of military-based handguns are loaded with FMJ due to the various conventions, logistical concerns, and command level mandates that plague the organizations; there are smaller specialized units and stateside security personnel that are issued hollowpoints, yet the vast majority has alway been and will always be FMJ's due to reasons beyond the individual soldiers' control :banghead:

For those people that have reliability issues with their semiautomatic weapons (the weapon reliably load FMJ and not hollowpoints) there are 2 loads out there that mimic the loading characteristics of FMJ and apply the terminal effects of hollowpoints;

one load is the EXPANDING FULL METAL JACKET (EFMJ) load developed by Federal~it utilizes a full metal jacket with a central lead core topped off by a polymer cap under the jacket; the jacket is scored to collapse and separate when a soft target (perpetrator) is hit; the polymer core squishes and fills the splits in the jacket and causes an expanding effect to the bullet

the other load is the POW'RBALL load developed by Corbon~it utilizes a hollowpoint load that is tipped with a polymer cap; the polymer cap mimns the profile of an FMJ and allows reliale feeding; the polymer cap is pushed bak into the bullet when a soft target (perpetrator) is hit and forces the hollowpoint below the cap to expand

What you use in your CCW is your decision and you have to realize that you are legally and economically responsible for every bullet that you fire...this is a personal choice and I cannot guide you either way on what to do!!!

 

[Kamicosmos]

Well, the thinking is that FMJ or JSP will overpenetrate. You know, take down schools in China after blowing through the earth's core and such.

A hollowpoint that clogs is almost as good as a FMJ. If the HP does its job and expands, it is 'more better' somehow.

I carry FMJ or JSP in all my carry guns, which currently are .45acp and .357 mag. I figure overpentration isn't as 'important' as a) my auto feeding correctly and b) the bullets doing their job. I feel more comfortable shooting FMJ and/or JSP in my carry guns than I do JHP.

YMMV, to each his own, AGNTSA, and IANAL, etc etc, ad nausem.

 

[Ron James]

There is no written or unwritten rule that says you have to use H/Ps. Use what ever you are confortable with. There is some concern about pentatration with FMJ but lets be honest, dead is dead. Shot placement is everything. You can miss six times with a 44mag. , or kill with a single shot .22

 

[Lupinus]

He used FMJ because by law, he had to, all military does. In the military it is referred to as "hardball" and all small arms from pistols to rifles are hardball ammo when you are speaking military.

You use hollow points for self defense because it delivers more power and a larger wound channel, causing more damage trauma and stopping power. When it expands it gets much bigger and tears through more because of its shape. Imagine taking a pencil and stabbing it into your hand (ok, I am not advising you do this, just saying visualize for a moment, and yeah, I also realize it isn't 100% accurate but its the best I could think up on such short notice) visualize the differences of the pointy end and the eraser end but of a larger diameter pencil, one might cut deeper or go clean through but the other causes more damage and more of the energy is released in the target. All your premium self defense rounds are hollow points for a reason, they are what does it best.

As for the specific issues you addressed-

Lack of penetration-
Good well designed hollow points are designed to expand at a certain rate giving you the optimum mix of penetration and expansion. Going back to the pencil visualization above, imagine starting with the pointy end that transforms into the eraser end once it penetrates the skin. Good hollow points break skin, enter, and expand at a determined designed rate. A good premium hollow point gives very good penetration without over penetrating or going strait through your target.

Failure to expand-
This is really a problem with older or basic hollow points. When you are speaking premium self defense ammo like gold dots and other premium SD hollow points the expand more or less reliably. The problem is that they cavity can sometimes clog with clothing or tissue and not expand. Well engineered hollow points are designed to either not get clogged or expand regardless of being clogged or not.

Reliability-
True some guns dislike them, but I have yet to see a good gun that wont run through gold dots or other premium ammo as reliably as any other ammo type including FMJ.

It isn't irresponsible, but you are more likely to over penetrate especially if your gun is a smaller caliber fast round like a .357sig. This becomes a problem if there are bystanders that could be hit. It also is just generally considered a bad idea. You want to put your target down hard and fast with as few shots as possible*edit* and yeah, I know "shot placement is everything" but this isn't the range where you can always perfectly aim your shot. This is self defense and sometimes you need to get a shot off fast. I want to know that a shot that is off a few inches will put the target down just the same as one right through the heart. I wont trust my life to my being perfect. My being good yes, perfect no. *edit*. HP's do this better then FMJ. Civilians who want to defend themselves prefer it, most every law enforcement I can think of uses it, and if the military wasn't bound by redicules treaty they would be using them to...in fact I think some special forces are but I might be mistaken on that.

 

[GoRon]

They all fall to hardball.








Someone had to say it

 

[Lupinus]

yeah but the question is after half a mag or after one or two shots

 

[freedom and guns]

Because when you shoot something you might actually want to stop it from moving!

 

[Ron James]

Thats odd, when I was in the military the term hard ball was sometimes used but most of the time we refered to military ammo as Full Metal Jacket. To each his own. Perhaps different eras.

 

[Lupinus]

Same thing Ron, I've just always seen it as Hardball when speaking more officialy

 

[freedom and guns]

If you

want fmg reliability and hollowpoint stopping power try http://gunblast.com/PowRBall.htm. It is said to be great stuff. Of course, if you really want reliability you should switch from using autos to revolvers.

 

[StrikeFire83]

He used FMJ because by law, he had to, all military does. In the military it is referred to as "hardball" and all small arms from pistols to rifles are hardball ammo when you are speaking military.

You use hollow points for self defense because it delivers more power and a larger wound channel, causing more damage trauma and stopping power. When it expands it gets much bigger and tears through more because of its shape. Imagine taking a pencil and stabbing it into your hand (ok, I am not advising you do this, just saying visualize for a moment, and yeah, I also realize it isn't 100% accurate but its the best I could think up on such short notice) visualize the differences of the pointy end and the eraser end but of a larger diameter pencil, one might cut deeper or go clean through but the other causes more damage and more of the energy is released in the target. All your premium self defense rounds are hollow points for a reason, they are what does it best.

As for the specific issues you addressed-

Lack of penetration-
Good well designed hollow points are designed to expand at a certain rate giving you the optimum mix of penetration and expansion. Going back to the pencil visualization above, imagine starting with the pointy end that transforms into the eraser end once it penetrates the skin. Good hollow points break skin, enter, and expand at a determined designed rate. A good premium hollow point gives very good penetration without over penetrating or going strait through your target.

Failure to expand-
This is really a problem with older or basic hollow points. When you are speaking premium self defense ammo like gold dots and other premium SD hollow points the expand more or less reliably. The problem is that they cavity can sometimes clog with clothing or tissue and not expand. Well engineered hollow points are designed to either not get clogged or expand regardless of being clogged or not.

Reliability-
True some guns dislike them, but I have yet to see a good gun that wont run through gold dots or other premium ammo as reliably as any other ammo type including FMJ.

It isn't irresponsible, but you are more likely to over penetrate especially if your gun is a smaller caliber fast round like a .357sig. This becomes a problem if there are bystanders that could be hit. It also is just generally considered a bad idea. You want to put your target down hard and fast with as few shots as possible*edit* and yeah, I know "shot placement is everything" but this isn't the range where you can always perfectly aim your shot. This is self defense and sometimes you need to get a shot off fast. I want to know that a shot that is off a few inches will put the target down just the same as one right through the heart. I wont trust my life to my being perfect. My being good yes, perfect no. *edit*. HP's do this better then FMJ. Civilians who want to defend themselves prefer it, most every law enforcement I can think of uses it, and if the military wasn't bound by redicules treaty they would be using them to...in fact I think some special forces are but I might be mistaken on that.

First of all, thanks for such a well reasoned response.

I don't have a CHL yet, as I am currently too poor to afford one and may be moving to California for job reasons early next year.

In my apartment right now I have 3 guns loaded for home defense.

1) Kahr K9 with FMJ Rem UMC Brass
2) Glock 17 with Federal Hollow Points (Non Hydra-shock)
3) Ruger SP-101 .357 with Corbon .38 Spec +P HP

I bought the hollow points because the guy at the shop told me they were "better for self defense" but neglected to volunteer anything beyond that. He also pointed me to the MOST EXPENSIVE hollow points first, of course, which made me call the whole thing into question.

 

[Lupinus]

they will always do that lol

Speer Gold Dots and Federal Hydrashocks are both very good. As are Winchester Silvertips but my first choice would be the Gold Dots.

 

[StrikeFire83]

What about the Corbons for my Ruger revolver?

A fellow at the range recommended them highly as not too expensive but very reliable.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I think its OK to use FMJ for defense if you want to.

Over-penetration is an issue, but probably over-rated. You are more likely to cause an injury to a bystander with a missed shot than you are with a shot that over-penetrated.

Plus, if you hit a bystander with a shot that missed your target you are going to do much more damage to the bystander than if he is hit with a shot that over-penetrated some one else first.


I am not saying over-penetration is a non-problem, just that you are more likely to cause a problem with a complete miss than with a shot that has hit already been slowed way down by hitting someone else first.


Also, remember that a JHP may well still over-penetrate its target. I have operated on quite a few people who were hit with JHP's, and in about half of those, the bullets went through and through.

Clint Smith and Jeff Cooper advocate the use of hard ball, for whats that worth. I believe their rationale is that hard ball is more reliable than JHP.

 

[gazpacho]

Yes, Jeff Cooper prefers hardball. However, he only recommends ammo types that begin with 45 and end with ACP.

 

[crofrog]

Shot placement. Everything else is gravy.

 

[sacp81170a]

If you're gonna use hardball, follow Jeff Cooper's advice. Remember, 9mm hollow points may fail to expand, but .45 FMJ will *never* shrink.

 

[sevesteen]

A gun is a bullet delivery system. A box of premium ammo is a small cost compared to all the other costs involved. I don't know of any round better than a premium .357 125 grain JHP, however I don't shoot revolvers well. Revolvers aren't picky about ammo, so 12 should be enough.

The autos are a different story--With those, you need to shoot enough of your carry ammo to ensure reliability. I'd be happier carrying the least expensive (US made) hollowpoints I could find, after running 100 through each auto, rather than hoping a single box of premiums will feed without testing. It isn't the premium ammo's fault, there's a compromise between feeding reliably and expanding properly, and not all guns can deal with all shapes of bullet.

 

[jrou111]

My .02,

HP do more tissue damage due to expansion. I've test fired .44mag JSP and .44mag JHP and the JSP remained the size of the unfired round. The JHP mushroomed to nearly .70"

My understanding of this is that the larger expanded round has the greater potential to do more damage to tissues and hopefully hit a vital organ or CNS.


But on HP rounds with less powder behind them like .380, .32acp or smaller, they will not be able to penetrate deeply, and FMJ is more likely to do more tissue damage.

This is just my understanding, I could be completely wrong.

 

[Jeff White]

If you are still very much a novice, then you shouldn't worry about things like which magic bullet should I load my weapon with.

Take the half the time that you are spending researching that subject and spend it studying. Learn all you can about the proper mindset. Your mind is the weapon, your handgun and ammunition are merely tools.

Take the other half of the time you are spending on your quest for the elusive magic bullet and spend it training. A gunfight is ging to require you to know how to manipulate your weapon under stress and how to hit your target. The most effective magic bullet in the world is useless unless you can present your weapon and deliver the magic bullet to the target.

Take the money that you're going to spend on this quest for the perfect handgun/defensive round combination and spend it on training from a good instructor and practice ammuntion.

Right now your big equipment concern is that you have a totally reliable handgun that you can effectively use and that fits your lifestyle so you'll actually carry it. Revolver, automatic..doesn't really matter, pick what you personally shoot the best and fits your lifestyle. As long as it's 100% reliable and in a caliber .38 special or larger you'll be good to go.

When you've got all that figured out, then start looking for the magic bullet.

Jeff

 

[Medusa]

My choices are either FMJ in 2 loads (124 gr and 140 gr subsonic) or Softpoint (124 gr). So I chose softpoints. Overpenetration is a serious issue here, and if some innocent bystander gets hit my license would be revoked and me jailed.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Crazy old Charlie Wilson used to load his 1911 with half CCI Blazer aluminum (FMJ) and Federal Hydra-Shoks. He did half and half, alternating between one and the other in the magazine. I asked him one day why the heck he did that, and he shrugged and said if he had to put one through a car door he was only one extra trigger pull away from an FMJ and if he had to put one through a bad guy he was only one extra trigger pull away from a hollowpoint.

Plus, he said, it looked cool in the magazine.

That man was strange.

 

[TallPine]

Since I am as likely to need to use my gun against a bear, cougar, or feral dog as a person, I load up with JSP (except for one round of snake shot during the warmer months).

Why not just use FMJ for personal defense?

Doesn't sound to me like you are looking for a "magic bullet"

 

[mp510]

there are very few areas in law enforcement that use FMJ

LAPD SWAT officers keeps one of their extra .45 mags stoked with FMJ in case there is a situation that requires more penetration than hollow points provide.