Why so many CZ-75 clones, but few SIG P210 or Hi-Power clones?

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HOOfan_1

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The CZ-75 seemed to borrow heavily from the SIG P210 and a bit from the Hi-Power. Obviously, it took the designs a step further to SA/DA, but the SIG P210 and Hi-Power are both considered very desirable. So why have they not garnered a clone market like the CZ-75? Tanfoglio, Sarzilmaz, IMI, Spinx, Bren Ten, Amrscor, Norinco etc. etc. plenty of CZ clones.
FEG was the only Hi-Power clone I can think of. I can think of no SIG P210 clones.

Are there patent issues, are there popularity issues? Are there manufacturing issues? Or are the CZ clones just cheaper because they are more available?
 
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Patent issues.
Exactly right. Something about patents when they were in the Soviet block maybe... but I know I read it was patents. Excellent gun and is said to have surpassed the Hi-Power as the most used service 9mm of all time.


p.s.

From Wikipedia:

Today the CZ factory is located in the Czech Republic (EU) and the gun is offered worldwide, however during the Cold War, Czechoslovakia was part of the Warsaw Pact and thoroughly communist in its political outlook. The CZ 75 was the first 9mm semi-auto pistol developed expressly for sale to the West and it offered new idea in auto-pistol manual safety design: it was a dual mode design. It could be carried in the conventional double-action/single-action mode of operation, or it could be carried "cocked and locked" like the 1911 pistol.[7]

Due to politics the Czechs could not market their pistol in the United States and because CZ failed to secure world patent protection for their design, a number of firms copied it. Foremost Italian firm Fratelli Tanfoglio made good business marketing the pistol to the West with the design being so solid, that two shooters, US national Doug Koenig and Frenchman Eric Grauffel, have won the hard fought IPSC World Championship using pistols based on CZ 75 design. That was tremendous endorsement for any handgun design because all other World Champions up to the time had used pistols based on the John Browning 1911 format.[7] Other notable copies/clones are those of Swiss origin, which have reputation of manufacturing quality rivalling that of the CZ original.[2]
 
Think there have actually been a good number of Hi-Power copies, especially if you include all of the somewhat altered derivatives, like the Arcus.
 
There are several clones of high powers. As mentioned FEG, Israeli Kareem, Arcus, FM.
 
Sidenote, the Czech Republic may have been under Soviet control, and their leadership at the time may have vocalized in a very communist fashion, but they suffered terribly under the Soviets and culturally were not happy at all about their forcible annexation by Russia.

Their Prime Minister was kidnapped and told he was due to be executed in a matter of hours, then told minutes before the planned execution that he was pardoned so long as he signed a peace/surrender agreement with Russia. That experience was basically a microcosm of the rest of their occupation, the Czech Republic itself was not a willing member of the Warsaw Pact.
 
Don't forget the Korean made Daewoo 51 (fast action), HP clone. Actually, a very good pistol, and fairly inexpensive.
 
A clone of a CZ-75 is just a clone of a CZ-75. Don't get me wrong the CZ-75 is a brilliant gun but most of the clones are pretty close in quality to the original CZ.

I don't think any of the BHP clones were ever as good as a genuine BHP (IMO) however the Hungarian FEG Hi Power clone is a very decent gun and there are lots of people who say nice things about the Hi Power clone made by Charles Daly.

There can be no clone of the Sig P210 that could rival the genuine article. Someone could make a gun that looks like a P210 but I what really makes the P210 such a good gun is in their build quality. For example there are clones of some of the finest Swiss watches ever made and they look almost identical to the real thing but there's a reason why you are paying $400 instead of $4,000.

One good example of this is the Bersa Thunder 9 which is almost an exact clone of the Walther P88. However when you compare the build quality of the Walther P88 to the Bersa it's pretty clear why you pay so much more for the Walther.
 
For example there are clones of some of the finest Swiss watches ever made and they look almost identical to the real thing but there's a reason why you are paying $400 instead of $4,000.
What you're mainly paying for is brand recognition and advertising. Sometimes things sell for 1/3 the price that work just as well, or at least close enough.
 
What you're mainly paying for is brand recognition and advertising. Sometimes things sell for 1/3 the price that work just as well, or at least close enough.

Often times this is the case but there are also times when it takes more precision and time to make something and as a result the cost of that product is more. There are many firearms on the market that cost a lot of money simply because there is more time and effort put into their construction and I think the P210 is one of those firearms. That said I do also think the P210 is priced higher than what it should be and Sig does that because it's a P210 and that's their only justification. If I were to buy one myself I would look for one of the older ones from the 70's or 80's and skip the new ones they are now making.
 
There is nothing in the 210 design, which is itself just an evolved variant of the Charles Petter's SACM 1935a, itself evolved from the 1911, that is covered by patent anymore. Swiss arms tend to be more expensive (and the Swiss have, themselves, copied CZ's as often as anyone, the AT-84, Sphinx, and ASAI examples being among the best CZ-derived pistols out there).

There are plenty of Hi Power clones/copies, but since FEG drove most clones, when FEG died, the HP clone market died with it. Yeah, the Bulgarians and Argentines still make them as far as I know, but the other makers used FEG parts and without FEG parts, that was that.

Other than being a fine pistol, there really is nothing about the 210 that makes it desirable to clone or copy. It is a full-sized low-capacity 9mm single action service pistol. There are shooters who appreciate that, and I won't bash it, but really, where is a manufacturer going to interest anyone in a full-size service pistol in 9mm that only holds 8 rounds? The other two big guys in that category shoot 45acp, and big bore guys are fine with fewer rounds.

In 9mm, the 210 would have to compare with CZ, Glock, SIG, and others, that offer 15 or more rounds - effectively double the round count. So, the only way to compete would be to go with something nicely-made - and that is a small market. Besides, why pay extra dough for a "knock off" when you can get the original?

I'm not all that impressed with the price of a 210. It just ain't a two grand pistol to me. There is nothing in the design that requires it to be that high (and I suspect that even with precision production techniques, the price is too high). Others would disagree, and that is fine.
 
I'm not all that impressed with the price of a 210. It just ain't a two grand pistol to me. There is nothing in the design that requires it to be that high (and I suspect that even with precision production techniques, the price is too high).

I agree. It's a very nice pistol, but what can it do that another finely crafted 9mm can't, such as the S&W M52/952?
 
The Israeli Hi Powers are either made by FN, bu FEG, or they are made in Israel using FEG parts as the Kareen. The Kareen is just an FEG by another name (just as the Mauser M80 was just an FEG).
 
Just to add to the list of Browning Hi-Power copies:

Vietnam - Typ Browning
Indonesia - Pindad
Canada - Inglis Mk I
China - some Norinco copy, not to be confused with the Chinese marked Inglis
Bulgaria - (in chronological order) FN MkII knock-off for some middle east countries, Belitsa, Kareen MkII & III, Arcus 94 - all manufactured in the Arcus plant.


The Israeli Hi Powers are either made by FN, bu FEG, or they are made in Israel using FEG parts as the Kareen. The Kareen is just an FEG by another name (just as the Mauser M80 was just an FEG).
Well, not exactly - Kareen MkI is a re-branded FEG P9, but Kareen MkII & III are made by Arcus. In my knowledge KSN Industries never assembled or produced any Kareens - they just ordered them with their markings.

Boris
 
The CZ-75 seemed to borrow heavily from the SIG P210 and a bit from the Hi-Power. Obviously, it took the designs a step further to SA/DA, but the SIG P210 and Hi-Power are both considered very desirable. So why have they not garnered a clone market like the CZ-75? Tanfoglio, Sarzilmaz, IMI, Spinx, Bren Ten, Amrscor, Norinco etc. etc. plenty of CZ clones.
FEG was the only Hi-Power clone I can think of. I can think of no SIG P210 clones.

Are there patent issues, are there popularity issues? Are there manufacturing issues? Or are the CZ clones just cheaper because they are more available?
They guys who buy 210s wear watches with little gold crown on dial and knives by ProTech. These folks do not like 'Faux versions'. Being simple sod I shoot Glock, wear Bulova with Roda ONE jewel movement and carry Chinese 'Sheffield' knife on my belt.
 
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