Why so much hate for the DU?

[quazi]

This is my first thread, and it may not make me many friends here. Please note that I am talking about gun-control related threads on the Democratic Underground, not their politics in general.

I first stopped by the Democratic Underground to check out the "full-auto revolver" thread that was being discussed here. While there were quite a few stereotypical hysterical, ignorant gun control advocates there, I was actually surprised by the number of people who seemed pro-gun. Nearly everyone there seemed to understand how stupid the AWB was.

I decided to check back earlier today after reading the thread asking if there were any Anti's on THR. After reading four or five threads, it seems to me that most folks over there (at least the ones active in the guns section) are pretty much on our side. They might not be as "uncompromising" in their views as many people here (most of them support the NFA) but at least they seem to recognize that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right, and that banning a firearm because it looks scary is silly.

Sure, there were those that wanted to impose more gun control, and that fit the stereo type of the typical panicking, hysterical, misinformed gun grabber. However, there were just as many of these who were trying to make rational (if incorrect) arguments for gun control. Both of these groups were outnumbered by those who believe that it is an individual citizens right to own firearms (even scary looking black ones).

I was actually starting to get suspicious that members of THR were infiltrating the Democratic Underground to try to change their opinions from within.

Of course I may be wrong about all this. I am not a regular follower of DU, it could just be a temporary fluke.

 

[jfh]

believe me, it is just a temporary fluke.

There is no way for pro-gun Democrats to be successfully integrated into the national Party agenda.

 

[Kim]

The gun discussion forum is not bad. But, have you noticed how few take part in it. Sometimes if a gun related issue (a positive one) is posted in breaking news all heck breaks out cause it hurts their eyes and purity. My 2 cents for watching that place with fascination and horror for quite some time.

 

[hso]

There is no way for pro-gun Democrats to be successfully integrated into the national Party agenda.

I'm no more sure of that than I am that the Republican Party has a pro-RKBA plank. Individuals in the party pushed against the AWB, but no party plank.

I don't think either party is stupid enough to keep doing something over and over and over again that fails in winning votes. At some point they shift to look for successful strategies to win power. The Democrats seem to have gotten the idea that championing the anti-gun extemists is a poison pill and with real effort on our part they could be pushed to a neutral position. Pushing the host of the anti-RKBA folks to disavow them gives the gun grabbers no secure political base of operations for their cause.

 

[rbernie]

Nearly everyone there seemed to understand how stupid the AWB was.

Yes - they're learning to be more specific in their verbage. Next time, they'll be smarter and not stop at the cosmetic features when they ban semi-automatic rifles.

Nothing I've seen written in the DU (or even some rabidly right wing forums) indicates a shift away from the basic instinct of these folks to turn to the Government (or the Church, depending on which side of the fence they sit) to regulate anything that's foreign to them or which could be viewed as potentially dangerous.

"Protect me from myself and from others."

Sheeple mentality doesn't go away - it just morphs with the times. But it's still sheeple mentality, all the same, and still worthy of scorn.....

 

[Waitone]

My problem is there appears to be no tolerance for someone not of DU's mindset. You can get bounced pretty quickly from DU by not mouthing the line. THR is fairly tolerant of varying opinions. Horses' patoots generally get the email only after demonstrating their nature.

I'd love to spar on DU but name calling turns me off.

 

[Nitrogen]

First of all, i've never been on DU, but being a liberal, I know the type pretty well...

This is one of my pet peeves with a lot of pro-gun folks:
It seems a lot of them drink the neocon kool-aid about how evil and wrong Democrats are; so once someone figures that someone is a Democrat or a Liberal, all these preconceptions come flying out, and the conversation gets shut down before it even starts.

Democrats have some good ideas. They also have some bad ones. Gun control being one of them. The ONLY way to have gun control advocates see the light is with patience. Telling an anti-gun Democrat he's an america-hating defeat-o-crat isn't going to get you anywhere, just like when a liberal calls a conservative a "gun toting redneck fundie"

When you've got people like Sean Hannity and Al Franken treating those that disagree with them like subhuman children, it makes civil discourse difficult.

To the poster above me: I am very much of a liberal. I grew up Anti-gun, and saw the light about 10 years ago. It *IS* possible to change people's minds, but as is said in Matthew 7:12 -

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."

Most people who are anti-gun are just ignorant: They don't know anything about guns. For most of them just exposure will help.

 

[Silver Bullet]

I don't hate them; they're always good for a laugh.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

The problem Nitrogen is this.
First, let's be truthful. A liberal today is nothing more than a Marxist socialist.
The liberals of JFKs day, are gone, they are called conservatives.
Gun control is simply another manifestation of the socialist's desire to remove the individual and have a government nanny--cradle to grave.
Now you can argue that not all Liberals want that, doesn't matter. They are simply deluding themselves as to what the "progressive" movement is about, and by the time they wake-up it will be too late. The driving force behind the "liberal" movement of today are the old Left socialists from the 60's and '70s.
Most, not all, but a vast right wing conspiratory amount of gun owners are very much “libertarian” in their thinking (although we may have disagreements with the party of the same name).
This results in a gut level, repulsion to the liberal party (as expressed by Democrats).
I forget the term right now, but it is a well know method of Marxist socialists to try to slowly creep into a full blown Marxist society, and I, along with many other, believe this is exactly what is happening. Both in gun control, and every other aspect of our lives. So, the belief that we can “convince” the liberal anti-gunners to come over to pro-gun, is simply a waste of time. They don’t just want your guns, they want total control of your life.
Again, you can say what you want about how there are liberals who do not believe that way, and again, I will say they are not paying attention and they are deluding themselves.
So, it is really, in the end, about a lot more than just gun control, it is about a way of life. Civil discourse simply means a slow surrender.
Just my $0.02.
Hope I am not violating some rule, as this is very political. If I am, I am sorry, but I do not think I am alone.

 

[Exposure]

I just recently made my first forray over to DU just to sniff around and see what all the fuss was about.

To say I was appalled is putting it mildly. The language used in nearly every post is disgusting. The moderators join right in as well. It is unbelievable. Keep in mind I use just as many curse words as the next guy, but not on a public forum. And I certainly never express feeling for politicians, or more importantly the President in such vulgar terms.

One of the things I like so much about THR is the civil tone found throughout the entire site, as well as the lack of exceptionally foul language.

If I was a Democrat I certainly wouldn't be associated with that site.

I will agree that the guns section had some very good posts, and posters. But the rest of the site was offensive, and childish.

 

[Jim K]

DU is pretty bad, but some "liberal" sites and blogs are far worse. I have seen plenty of right-wing rants, but I don't think it has ever gotten this bad. As a Democrat, I would like to believe the nuts don't represent the party, but experience more and more indicates that they are in charge of it.

Here are some samples:

 "The rednecks and right-wing nuts who voted for Bush ought to be put into insane asylums."

 "They don't deserve to be labeled with such an innocuous term as 'conservative'...Rapturist Right, Bat****crazy Zealots are more fitting labels."

 "The people who voted for Bush ought to be rounded up and shot."

 "We support our troops only when they are killing their officers."

 "The real terrorists are the NRA gun crazies and the animal murdering hunters - when we take over, our first order of business will be to exterminate them."

 "The 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy between George W. Bush and the Mossad; that is proven by the fact that not one Jew died that day, not one."

 "To blame 9/11 on those heroes fighting for Moslem freedom is simply insane. The Jews cooked up the plot and carried it out, with the help of their whores in the Pentagon and the CIA."

 "Bring our troops home, hell! I hope our resistance fighters in Iraq kill them all. The only way I want those Nazi pigs back is in body bags."

 There is no reason anyone except the police and military needs a gun; we will take them all, and use the army if there is any resistance.

There has been more, including blatant racism and anti-Semitism. Comments on Lieberman often used the crudest anti-Jewish slurs, and both Lynn Swann and Michael Steele have had the "N-word" thrown at them by "liberal" Democrats. It is a helluva note.

Jim

 

[30Cal]

I suspect that the Gun Dungeon there is highly visited by non-Democrats. Thus the name.

 

[ilbob]

Democrats have some good ideas.

Please name just one for us. Please.

 

[orangelo]

Democrats have some good ideas.

Higher taxes and more social security payments! That way Ted Kennedy can give himself another raise and buy the nice bourbon. Also Nobel Peace Prizes for copkillers and serial murderers. Stashing $100,000 in bribe money in frozen dinner packages was a pretty good idea too.

 

[Autolycus]

And some of you think that the Republicans are really any better? They are working harder to take our rights than any other group. Patriot Act is my favorite example. What about the fact Reagan signed some powerful gun control bills in 1986? How quick some are to forget.

 

[junyo]

I don't think either party is stupid enough to keep doing something over and over and over again that fails in winning votes.

Dukakis, Kerry, Dean, Hillary... If Democrats had the slightest self awareness they would have nominated a Southern moderate and won the last election.

When you've got people like Sean Hannity and Al Franken treating those that disagree with them like subhuman children, it makes civil discourse difficult.

The problem is there used to be honest debate, and civil disagreements about how to accomplish something. Now if you disagree with your betters, even within the Party (see Lieberman, Joseph) you're not just wrong, you're evil. Therefore it's increasingly impossible to be a Democrat and be religious (aka BiblethumpinJesusfreak, although you get an exemption if you're black because you just don't know any better), believe in any kind of free market (aka culturerapingcapitalistyuppiescum), support the war (aka babykillinghaliburtonlovingneocon) or be a gun owner (aka truckdrivingmouthbreathingwifebeatingredneck).

 

[MechAg94]

I think everyone actually does understand that not all Democrats are Marxists pigs, but the party line seen in public is often bent that direction. "Single Definition" labels are just easier to use in internet discussion.

You can go to sites like Lucianne.com and others and see fanatic Republicans who see anything with an R as good and righteous and anything with a D as evil. If an R is bad, he is a RINO. There are those types on both sides to some extent. Also, there is a significant part of the Republican Party who is fairly authoritarian rather than libertarian in thinking. That is the main reason why I don't really consider myself a Republican. These days even the definition of a conservative is changing to focus on social issues rather than fiscal/regulatory issues.


More often than not when I get a chance to really talk to a Democrat or liberal, I note that we both normally want the same things and have similar end-goals. However, they most often have a very different way of looking at the problems and the solutions such that we are far apart when it comes to application. ----- I'll never forget a discussion on another site about the govt paid lunch program in schools. I brought up the issue of discussing ways to control fraud in the process. It only took a couple posts for me to be accused of wanting to starve children. I never even mentioned eliminating the program. The other poster was just so overly emotional on the issue they wanted to just throw money at it without regard to cost or misuse.

 

[redneck2]

And some of you think that the Republicans are really any better? They are working harder to take our rights than any other group. Patriot Act is my favorite example.

ACLU was asked to cite instances where the Patriot Act had violated someone's rights. They couldn't come up with a single example.

It seems the left wing loonies believe whatever garbage is spewed out and it instantly becomes "fact". Clinton's interview over the week-end is a perfect example. He whines about how Bush and Company get a "free pass" from the media during the news conferences....never gets a tough question..

evidentally Mr Clinton has never watched a news conference when Rumsfeld or Cheney are being questioned

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

I'll go out on a limb and say that the Democratic Underground
is probably about as good for you as Depleted Uranium

 

[knuckles]

Wow, I too just popped over to DU for the first time and found it highly disturbing. Many of those people just seem to be completely gone. Absolutely unsalvagable. It is that reason that makes me say 'No' Quazi, THR members could not possibly be wasting their time trying to persuade those people to change from within...it would be futile.

EDIT: I am not inferring that all Democrats are highly disturbing...just many of the posters on that site. And probably most of the site's visitors. As well as, maybe the sites organizers. And of course all of their authors. But only those, I swear...

 

[buzz_knox]

What about the fact Reagan signed some powerful gun control bills in 1986?

He signed the Firearms Owners Protection Act, which had the machinegun ban slipped into the back by Democrats during the amendment process. He also signed the armor piercing ammo ban, which had a definition crafted by the NRA and has helped stave off other ammo bans.

What other gun control did he sign?

 

[kevin davis]

Democrats/republicans

I have enjoyed reading the posts. The major problem facing both Democrats and republicans is power and the corruption that accompanies it. They both are too in love with being in power and wanting the power back when lost that neither side is willing to truly work for the benefit of the country and its citizens. Everything they do is aimed at continuing in or regaining power, not with protecting our constitution or our rights. The Democrats extreme side would like a leninist type rule, with the state in charge of everything lest some lower class moron actually take charge of his own life and succeed (gasp!!!), which of course degenerates into a stalinist rule when the idealogues are kicked out. The republican extremists would devolve to a fascist rule, to keep all those undesirables out and keep everything pure and unchanged, but the end result is the same, a totalitarian state which ultimately fails under its own weight of stupidity, cupidity, and greed. History always repeats itself because no one ever learns from the past and always repeats it. I have not been to the DU site and see little reason to go now, but those quotes sound all to much like a desire for totalitarianism. Both sides would weed out te bad, just like stalin and hitler did, for the same reasons, and guess who would be some of the first to go--anyone with a gun that might end up opposing them. I cannot trust the republicans more than Democrats, but I distrust them less. I am in favor of gun control--if you commit any crime with a gun you get executed--deterrence, prevention of repetition, and lesson all in one package and no exceptions. Then we could get rid of all the other stupid "gun control" laws we have and get back to enjoying our freedom.

 

[ezypikns]

I'm probably showing my ignorance.......

and certainly my age when I say I wish the Republican Party would return to the politics of Barry Goldwater. That is, while recognizing that the U.S. is a world leader, we are not world saviors. I'd also like to see the Republican Party return to the advocacy of FISCAL and NOT SOCIAL conservatism, and get out of peoples personal lives. LESS government is indeed BETTER government.

 

[Waitone]

And I wish the Democrats would develop cast of national leaders in the mold of Scoop Jackson, Sam Nunn, Hubert Humphry, Pat Moinihan, Jack Kennedy, and Zel Miller. The country desperately needs a functioning, principaled and pro-American Democrat party. Democrats marginalized themselves and republicans have expanded the tent to to point being republican is a meaningless.

 

[MechAg94]

+1 ezypckns. I tend to consider myself a conservative, but apparently I am not these days since I am not Pro-Life. I am not Pro-Choice either, but that doesn't seem to matter with some people. Fiscal and regulatory conservative ideas are why I am a conservative and why I felt I was a Republican for a while at least. It seems most of those Republicans like Phil Gramm have retired.