Why the 45 long colt

[EnsignJimmy]

The .45 Colt was the most powerful handgun cartridge available until the development of the .357 Magnum. And even then, the old black powder load consisting of a 255 grain bullet over 40 grains of FFFg (37 grains of Pyrodex in a modern solid-head case, or 30 grains of Triple Seven if you don't like smelling like brimstone) would develop 1000 ft/sec from a 7-1/4" barrel and maybe 50-75 ft/sec less from a 4-3/4" to 5-1/2" barrel. This can be safely replicated with 8 - 9 grains of Unique. That means that even the Italian clones are capable of taking whitetails at 100 yards, and protecting against predators at closer ranges . . . both two and four-legged. Even a "Cowboy Action" load featuring a 250 grain bullet at 700 - 750 ft/sec matches the ballistics of the US military .45 Colt load of the early 20th century. Load it with lighter bullets . . . 165 to 200 grains, and you have a cartridge that can harvest smaller game.

If you step up to a modern .45 Colt gun, you can step up the power. You don't need to approach the 80%-of-.44-Magnum pressure ceiling the Rugers are capable of hitting. 20.5 grains of H110 (straight for Hodgdon's reloading data) will throw a 335 grain cast lead bullet at over 1050 ft/sec from a 7-1/4" Ruger Bisley Blackhawk for a paltry 19,200 CUP. That's merely .45 ACP pressures. This is a load that's safe to shoot from a S&W 25-5 or similarly strong gun. With a bit more powder, 1100 ft/sec can be easily achieved. That big heavy bullet carries its momentum much better than lighter bullets, and is much more pleasant to shoot than lighter bullets driven to higher speeds.

Out of a modern rifle (not a toggle-link rifle like a Winchester 1866 or 1873 replica or a Taurus Thunderbolt) the 300 - 335 grain bullet will attain up to 1400 - 1500 ft/sec if loaded properly. Without exceeding Ruger pressures. Though even a standard 255 grain load will get up to 1300 ft/sec from a rifle.

So there are excellent reasons why the .45 Colt has lasted for 136 years, even though there are faster, hotter rounds out there. It's why most of my handguns are loaded in .45 Colt.

 

[cz85cmbt]

So, I looked up some more load research then what was in the speer manual, and indeed you can equal and slightly exceed loads for the .44, although older manuals have much hotter .44 loads than modern ones, but I don't like huge pressure anyway. The .45 seems like a hell of cartridge, so the real question is WHY THE .44 MAGNUM. I'd like to hear the .44 lovers side of the story. The obvious is a wider selection of factory loads, especially at the top end of the power scale, but what else because I really can't see any myself.

 

[Gryffydd]

Possibly better functioning in DA revolvers and lever guns due to more available rim diameter.

1 catridge, 1 standard (mostly). You don't have to question whether this gun or that gun can take this load or that load. You won't accidentally drop your 28k CUP load in your Italian replica. There's an established and universal pressure spec for the cartridge. The (mostly) above is because there are a few boutique rounds that have OALs too long for some .44 mag revolvers. (Buffalo Bore, Garrett)

Wider selection of guns chambered in it--especially in Double Action revolvers and lever guns.

Possibly a wider availability of component bullets as well--though the .45 Colt isn't exactly lacking.

As I said earlier, I went with the .45 Colt despite these reasons as the Pros for the Colt outweighed them--for me.

 

[MCgunner]

Other whys for the .44 mag, a couple I can think of off the top of my head.....

If you don't handload, .44 mag is more affordable for high end loads and you have the special for light shooting.

In a light DA gun that's otherwise not rated for the +P .45 stuff, like the Smith and Wesson Mountain gun, the .44 is still capable of that level of power in the lighter built DA guns. IOW, you can have your 40 ounce bear repellent in a DA revolver if that's what hangs your hooter.

Me, I prefer the single action as an outdoor gun. My Blackhawk weighs about the same as the Mountain gun, but is stronger, quicker on the draw, and more pointable for me.

 

[rcmodel]

so the real question is WHY THE .44 MAGNUM.

The main reason is, the .45 Colt has been around since 1873, and there are still a lot of old guns around and being used.

When the .44 Mag came out, the guns were built stronger to handle it, and they still are.

There never was a weak .44 mag revolver made, but there are an awful lot of weak .45 Colt revovlers still around. And still being made on the Colt SAA design.

Folks like Elmer Keith determined that with the guns of his day, a .44 Special cylinder was way stronger then a .45 Colt cylinder due to the smaller holes and thicker cylinder walls..

Now, with stronger guns, bigger cylinders, and better steels, it is not so much a factor.

rc

 

[Gryffydd]

I was on photobucket as part of replying to another thread, so I figured I might as well add a picture of my .45 Colt to the thread



I need to take some pictures of my own...this is from the dealer I bought it from

 

[cz85cmbt]

RC I just don't see that as a reason to buy one though. Maybe for it to be popular to the masses. And yes there are some nice compact packing pistols that couldn't house .45 colts let alone high pressure loads like the taurus .44 tracker. But for a full size gun, like a ruger redhawk you get less pressure which usually lessens felt recoil (pounds per square inch per second) rather than overall recoil (pounds per square inch delivered), and heavy bullets seem to work very well and are widely available. So for the smart involved shooter who reloads his ammo what's the advantage. I do appreciate that there are more .44 pistols to choose from but ruger and smith both make strong DA actions and lever guns in .44 are easier to find but both 1894's and 1892's are well priced and available. I guess I'm looking for people's personal experience loading for and shooting the two cartridges, is one cheaper to load, more accurate in rifle or revolver, one more finicky with overall length, this sort of thing. Not what made it popular. We can all agree that steels weren't up to the challenge when Elmer was working with hot loads for a .45 design, and it was easier to work with .44 special revolvers because they were designed with smokless powder already, but thats only why the .44 became the industry king of hunting magnums. On paper they seem near equals, but there is more than paper ballistics, we've seemed to show where the colt shines over the .44 if you are a reloading type, so I'm asking those who have experience with the .44, are there any advantages to the .44 when stacked against a reloaded .45 lc (not just ballistically, recoil, but also in the loading process itself: ease, expense, etc. Sorry to be so long winded.

 

[rcmodel]

There is very little differance if any to reloading one or the other.

I shoot mostly cast bullets in my .45 Colt and .44 Spl. revolvers, and Jacketed in my .44 Mag carbine.

Compairing bullet & brass prices if you buy them from Able Ammo:
240 grain XTP .44 cal = $26.20.
250 grain XTP .45 cal = 26.56.

.44 mag cases = $26.08.
.45 Colt cases = $31.41.

Primers, and powder are basically the same.

rc

 

[unspellable]

45 Colt

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 45 Colt is 14,000 CUP or 14,000 psi. You will note that the number is the same for both measuring methods, not what you would expect. Typically the same load will produce a higher psi number then CUP number.

There is no SAAMI spec for "Ruger/Contender" loads or for any load at 25,000.

 

[unspellable]

The 14,000 CUP limit is for the old BP guns. What's missing is load data for modern revolvers that will certainly take more than 14,000 CUP but not to the levels where the bluing peels off like some of the Ruger loads. For example the Anaconda, or my Raging Bull that's cahmbered for 45 Colt. (That's right, 45 Colt, not 454 Casull.)

 

[rWt]

Because it makes holes in paper that my old eyes can see.

 

[Gryffydd]

There is no SAAMI spec for "Ruger/Contender" loads or for any load at 25,000.

Quite true. Hodgdon's data tops out at 30,100 CUP for their Ruger only loads. But there's NO official pressure spec for .45 Colt +P

It would be nice if they'd do this though... Might reduce some of the confusion.

 

[eldon519]

Based on my research, .44 magnum will be a bit cheaper to shoot if you are going to stick with jacketed. Both Magtech and Remington sell 240gr .44 bullets for around $175/1000. There may be similar deals out there for .45 Colt jacketed bullets, but I personally have never found them. You can, however, load .45 Colt with 230-grain jacketed bullets meant for .45 acp using a taper crimp or Lee FCD and get them for around $150/1000. Not the perfect solution, but if you really want to practice with FMJs, it's an option (on a side note, you can also load 230 .45 acp HPs by tinkering with the Ruger data for 240-grain loads and basically make varmint-dynamite-type rounds for coyotes and the like). Cast bullets are roughly equal in price by my finding. It seems heavy cast bullets are more available in .45 though (right up to 395) thanks in part to the .454. I've seen data for .44 magnum up to 355gr, but I don't believe I've ever found such bullets for sale. Not a problem if you get into casting.

For max Hodgdon Ruger loads, the .45 Colt will also use a bit more powder. In general, you're a bit more confined by powders with the .45 Colt as well, because the most potent data that I've seen is all published by Hodgdon or independently worked up by folks with H-110/W296 anyway. Obviously other powders will/would work if you had the tools to work up the loads, but I don't. Doesn't matter to me though, I feel like for .45 Colt, pretty much Unique and H-110/W296 is about all you need anyway.

 

[Gryffydd]

I feel like for .45 Colt, pretty much Unique and H-110/W296 is about all you need anyway.

Lil' Gun is very nice as well, but yes, there isn't really anything you're likely to ask a .45 Colt to do that can't be done well with those two powders.

 

[MCgunner]

Quote:
There is no SAAMI spec for "Ruger/Contender" loads or for any load at 25,000.


Quite true. Hodgdon's data tops out at 30,100 CUP for their Ruger only loads. But there's NO official pressure spec for .45 Colt +P

It would be nice if they'd do this though... Might reduce some of the confusion.

If that's so, why do I find sites like this with SAAMI tables listing such pressure limits??????

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

 

[Gryffydd]

I think you might have caught me being wrong for once...
Last time I was really looking at the issue I didn't see any real official word on a SAAMI spec for overpressure .45 Colts. Doing some more looking now I've seen a few things that confirm it. The question still remains if the limit is at 25k, why does so much published load data go beyond 30k? Nearly everything I've read on the subject points at either 28k or 30k as the limit for Rugers, depending on who's doing the writing.
Edit: I think my sleep deprived brain was thinking of modern .45-70 loads...

 

[MCgunner]

Well, that's why I don't get crazy with hotrodding the ol' .45. I am pushing my 300 grain bullets to just under 900 ft lbs from a 4 5/8" barrel and that'll do anything that needs doing for me. No need to stress even a Blackhawk.

If I move to Alaska, I'll buy a Casull, or get John Linebaugh to whip me up one of his monster five shot creations out of a Blackhawk.

 

[The_Shootist]

By the way - what bullet weight is are .45LC guns regulated for? I know the .38/.357 class usually shoot POA with 158gr loads -is there a similiar setup in .45LC? Or do you just have to toy with the sights of the individual gun?

 

[sig220mw]

I agree with Strawhat. The 45 is a big bullet that can be whooped up if you want but it isn't always necessary because the mass and diameter of the bullet combine for good penetration and a big hole. Because of this you can shoot relatively milder loads and get really good performance and have fun doing it. If you want or need to it can always be loaded a little hotter. The beauty is that you don't really need to make it really hot because it works so well.

 

[eldon519]

225 and 255 are pretty common loads. Not sure about how they're regulated though.

 

[sw282]

I own several 45 Long Colts. A TC 45-410 10", Colt Model P 5 1/2'', and a S&W 25-3. The 25-3 is by far the most accurate. I shoot 8gr Unique/200gr swc .452 cast bullet. This is the same bullet I shoot in my Gold Cup. The 25-3 has really been an eye opener for accuacy.

 

[eldon519]

Lil' Gun is very nice as well, but yes, there isn't really anything you're likely to ask a .45 Colt to do that can't be done well with those two powders.

I'm a little bit afraid of Lil' Gun. It's developing a reputation on the internet for being hard on revolvers and their forcing cones. I usually reserve a healthy dose of skepticism for such claims, but Bob Baker of Freedom Arms has confirmed that they have had problems with Lil' Gun and have done some sample testing which seems to support the accusations. Search the internet for "The Truth About Lil' Gun" if you would like to read it yourself, but there isn't much there that I haven't about summed up. The hypotheses is that because Lil' Gun has about 10% more nitro glycerin than H-110, it gets the gun much hotter allowing the forcing cone to be damaged more easily by pressure and abrasion.

 

[BullRunBear]

This is a great thread. I like the versatility of the 45 Colt over the 44 mag. In my Ruger Blackhawk with 7.5 inch barrel a 255 gr. LFN (Lee mold) and 9 grs of Unique is comfortable and more accurate than I can shoot it. It's good for paper punching and will knock down a steel target at 100 yards. And the concussive force won't loosen your fillings. I use a stainless new model Vacquero in 45 (love that Colt SAA feel and balance) and use it for BP cartridges with the same 255 gr. bullet. Fun to load for and fun to shoot.

Of course there's the history of the old cartridge. And a bit of nostalgia since they remind me of my Roy Rogers cap pistols I had back in the fifties.

I've fired heavy bullet, full house 44 mag loads in the S&W 29 and corresponding heavy 45 loads in the Blackhawk. (The Vaquero has no place for these loads.) I found the 45s much more comfortable and controllable.

 

[atlanticfire]

Awesome round!

I enjoy the 45LC as much or more than most of my other cals. It’s easy and inexpensive to load. The wife likes the light cowboy loads, low noise and its easy accuracy (so she says). I have a Ruger Vaquero and a Marling 1894 both in 45LC and both are fun to shoot. The Marling can take the heavier loads and my brother and I like shooting the 45LC+p loads in his Blackhawk. I have 44 mags and 454s and a 500mag. But for leisurely shooting out back or at the range its hard to beat!

 

[MCgunner]

I worked up a Lil' Gun load for .357 magnum. It really wakes up a 20" carbine. I'm sticking with 2400 for my revolvers, though. Forcing cone erosion is quite possible with the powder, burn rate being pretty slow. First I've heard of it, though, but thanks for the tip.