Why The NRA May Be Right To Not Rush a Second Amendment Case to the Supreme Court

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http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2003_06_29_archive.html#105700985322538411

Why The NRA May Be Right To Not Rush a Second Amendment Case to the Supreme Court

There are a lot of gun rights activists who are upset with NRA's reluctance to go to court with a Second Amendment case. These recent decisions by the Supreme Court are strong arguments for why that reluctance is sensible. In the University of Michigan law school case, the Supreme Court decided that even though the Fourteenth Amendment is explicit that there will be no discrimination based on race, discrimination based on race, as long as it's not made too explicit, is okay. In the other case, the Supreme Court ignored precedent, rewrote some of Colonial America's sodomy laws, and then used due process and a lot of armwaving to strike down a state law of the sort that has been present for centuries--and then discounted everything more than 50 years old as not particularly relevant to their decision. ("In all events we think that our laws and traditions in the past half century are of most relevance here.")

And you suddenly are going to trust the Supreme Court to make a decision about the meaning of the Second Amendment? All your arguments in favor of an individual right are based on:

1. Historical evidence that will be ignored, just like colonial Connecticut and Plymouth's homosexual sodomy laws were ignored.

2. Precedents of both federal and state supreme courts that are largely more than 50 years old.

3. Notions of individual rights that are even older.

Against this, the gun control side has the same elites that wanted the sodomy law struck down. I think the NRA may be right not to rush to the Supreme Court of Urban Elitism.
 
I think he's trying to say

not that the sodomy law was constitutional, but that SCOTUS doesn't care a fig for the constitution, and ignored amendment X among others to impose its morality on the states. And its morality is a reed in the wind, based not on law but on the tone of the times. In other words, the sodomy law wasn't unconstitutional; it was none of the constitution's business just as RKBA is none of its business.
 
Someone finally wrote an article that makes sense.

Who was the last president to comfirm Supreme Court Justices.
clintoon.

We have waited forty years for a Supreme Court ruling and the closest ruling we can get would be a 5-4. Why do the smaller gun groups want to risk everything on such a close gamble?

The only thing I can think of is the smaller gun groups such as the GOA would disappear if we had a favorable ruling. The NRA would still be in business by going back to what they always did before they became a gun rights oganization.
The NRA would be happy as hell to go back to competitions in every state and city.
 
There has been a cultural war on going for about 60 years and the supreme court has been at its center, just obscured from complete view. Last weeks decision clearly painted the picture of an activist court which is not concerned with consitutionality and law but more interested in promoting a social agenda.

The war is now in the open where all can see and participate. I look for an all out political war to break out over court nominees. Democrats have clearly understood what is at stake. Spinelessrepublicans weren't so sure. Now the public sees what is at stake.

In my view what SCOTUS did last week is no different than what the Florida supreme court did in the presidential election. They both legislate from the bench. Both are extremely dangerous and I believe Joe and Martha Sixpack see it for what it is.
 
the real problem in the supreme court is that they aren't ready yet to make a clear distinctive decision... they hedge too much and compromise and reflect public sentiment, and we want a clear concise (YES, RKBA is a RIGHT, and an individual one at that, and you're stupid to think otherwise... something on the order of the recent 9th distrcit dissents)

take the skewered affirmative action case, half of it is ok, but half is not. Michael Kinsley describes this better than I ever could: http://slate.msn.com/id/2084805/

the sodomy laws, well, for you republicans who are upset over such a thing, keep in mind that public sentiment was to get the law out of the bedroom and out of the way of consenting adults, at least to this degree. the case was a perfect setup too.

silveriea is a dangerous case and timing for RKBA to go up to SCOTUS. CATO's case is much more promising if they can keep the NRA out of the way (not an NRA hater, but they've been getting in the way of this one.. good intentions with potentiall bad results).
 
1. Historical evidence that will be ignored, just like colonial Connecticut and Plymouth's homosexual sodomy laws were ignored.

Coincidentally, we ignore their witch-hanging laws, too... :rolleyes:
 
the sodomy laws, well, for you republicans who are upset over such a thing, keep in mind that public sentiment was to get the law out of the bedroom and out of the way of consenting adults, at least to this degree. the case was a perfect setup too.

Indeed, for all of you opposing the Supreme Court's decision in the Texas case, let me all give you a dose of reality:

Did you live, or have lived in, Florida, Alabama, Lousiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Utah, or Idaho?

Did you, while currently residing in such states, or residing in such states, engaged in anything other than coitus?

Then in some of these states, you're a felon.

Think I'm kidding? Look at Virginia's, North Carolina's, and Lousiana's sodomy/crimes against nature statutes. Felonies. No different than you possessing a handgun in New York with no pistol license.

That was the reality in those states. I know of NO straight person in my former state of Florida that did NOT violate the Florida sodomy statute.

There's something to chew on there.
 
Sure it was - 9th amendment.
The issue of morality has blinded so many on this board to the Constitutionality of the recent SCOTUS decision that they cannot maintain any objectivity.

The 9th Amendment states:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. "

What are the "other retained rights" mentioned? There is no master list of rights that are protected by the 9th. So, does it include all rights? The right to molest children? The right to beat your wife, even if she doesn't object? The right to get drunk and drive 150 mph thru a school zone at 8:00 a.m. on a weekday? The answer is no. The rights protected by the 9th are all rights "EXCEPT"........... We can all agree that there are exceptions depedning on how you define a "right". However, the exceptions are not spelled out either. One poster stated that the principle of non-aggression should be used as guidance here, that only those so-called rights that violate the NAP are to excluded, this being based on the fact that the FF invoked the NAP by principle, if not by name. Well, that's very nice, but keep in mind that the FF, even the most secular of them, strongly supported a sense of morality in the laws of the nation and especially the states. So, do we use the NAP as guidance for the 9th, or a more expansive set of restrictions based on the Judeo-Christian mores in place during the 18th century, many of which still carry over today? Or, perhaps we should adopt a more contemporary set of guidelines, something akin to the "human rights" promoted by the socialist crowd, i.e., that we all have the right to be taken care of through free education, health care, and a sense of security and well-being.

The answer is: none of these are appropriate. Why? Because they are all subjective interpretations of rights. Inferrring that yours must be the only standard by which rights are defined is not only arrogant, it also undermines the separation of powers between the federal and state govt. The reason these rights were left undefined is because it was intended that the individual states would decide what is best for them. Thus we have the 10th Amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

Is the power to decide what set of exceptions to the long list of candidate "rights" that are retained by the people prohibited by the Constitution to be delegated to the states? Absolutely not. Therefore, the states (read, the people of each state) have the latitude to decide what is best for them and the culture that is prevalent in their state, as long as the exceptions do not violate another amendment of the Constitution.

This SCOTUS case has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with the rights of states. You cannot rely on the Constitution only when it suits you. You have a problem with the sodomy laws in Texas? If you don't live here, then its really none of your business. Please tend to the affairs of your own state. I am sure that every state in the Republic has its own set of archaic laws that need to be overturned. Work on those. Do you live in Texas and want the sodomy laws overturned? Then by all means petition the legislature to remove the law. Bring a case to the Court of Criminal Appeals, which is the highest court in Texas for hearing appeals of criminal cases. IOW, the law should be decided in Texas, not in Washington D.C. In today's cultural climate in Texas, I am sure you would have no problem getting the law removed with enough effort. The Bible Belt of the South is not nearly as strong as many would like to believe.

Anyway, as far as this article goes, the author is correct. An activist court, as we have now, would probably shred the 2A and set our fight for RKBA back 40 years.
 
Do you live in Texas and want the sodomy laws overturned? Then by all means petition the legislature to remove the law. Bring a case to the Court of Criminal Appeals, which is the highest court in Texas for hearing appeals of criminal cases.

What you ask is no different than asking blacks to beg the Legislature to stop the racial segregation of the universities back in the 1950's and early 1960's. It wasn't going to happen, since the legislature and the governor's office was filled with racists. The federal courts had to step in, and rightfully so. The people opposing the federal court actions used that same exact wording that you are using against the Lawrence decision.

as long as the exceptions do not violate another amendment of the Constitution.

It did violate another amendment to the constitution, namely, the 14th amendment. The Texas sodomy statute was called, on it's face, "Homosexual Conduct". It was passed to only effect certain acts between same sex, and did not apply to heterosexual partners for the same acts. You can slice and dice it all you want, but the law would have no been no different if it said that it was illegal for two people of the different race to engage in certain sexual conduct, and let legal those same acts for same race couples.

This was precisely what the equal protection clause was made to protect, and your arguments are no different than what the Supreme Court stated in US v. Cruikshank, a horrifically racist Supreme Court decision which said that only the states could regulate criminal contact and that federal government could not step in to protect the civil rights of US Citizens against state supported mass murder and general loss of civil rights. The 1876 Supreme Court basically said "Go to your state legislature and state cops". Sorry, but when the state legislature is filled with racists (or in the case of today, homophobes) and the cops are the people trying to massacre you and/or take away your right to privacy and liberty, that makes that entire equal protection and liberty argument totally moot, because both the lawmaking body and the executive bodies, the ones who make the laws and the one who enforces the law are subject to the passions, wills, and hatreds, of the popular vote. The courts in some states are also popularly elected, too. You won't see massacres against homosexuals nowadays because you have the Pink Pistols, and of course, the media would have a field day with it.

The Homosexual Conduct statute was enacted in 1973 with the specific intent to discriminate. Penal Code, section 21.06, originally prohibited all forms of sodomy with opposite sex, same sex, and all sex with animals. The law was amended to only include same sex sexual conduct. Meaning that opposite sex couples could have oral and anal sex (folks, no need to edit stuff here, we're almost all adults here, and we can talk about this without snickering and being worried for kids), and any person could have sex with animals! Yet, have oral sex with a partner of the same sex, and you were a criminal. This was the law in Texas, Kansas, and Oklahoma. Missouri's sexual misconduct statute was declared unconstitutional by a district court of appeal in western MO, but a prosecutor outside that district said he would prosecute, and in fact, there was a prosecution in St. Louis under that statute.

Given that Texas legalized bestiality in lieu of illegalizing same sex sexual conduct, any claim to "protecting the morals of it's people" is a farce, and there is NOTHING you, or anyone else, can say to me or most rational people, to defend it on moral grounds.

The laws in the other 9 states, Utah, Idaho, Lousiana, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia, had it in effect for both same sex and opposite couples, but has been enforced almost exclusively against same sex couples.

In 1901, Alabama had a constitutional convention. There was a section that prohibited people convicted of misdemeanor convictions could not vote. From Jim March's website on the case of Hunter v. Underwood:

"Article VIII, 182, of the Alabama Constitution of 1901 provides for the disenfranchisement of persons convicted of certain enumerated felonies and misdemeanors, including "any . . . crime involving moral turpitude.""

Supreme Court made this decision:

Section 182 violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Arlington Heights v. Metropolitan Housing Development Corp., 429 U.S. 252 . That 182 may have been adopted to discriminate against poor whites as well as against blacks would not render nugatory the purpose to discriminate against blacks, it being clear that the latter was a "but-for" motivation for adopting 182. There is no evidence that the disenfranchisement of those convicted of crimes involving moral turpitude was a motivating purpose of the 1901 Convention. Events occurring since 182 was adopted cannot validate the section. Nor can the Tenth Amendment save legislation prohibited by the Fourteenth Amendment. And the implicit authorization in 2 of [471 U.S. 222, 223] the Fourteenth Amendment to deny the vote to citizens "for participation in rebellion, or other crime," does not except 182 from the operation of the Equal Protection Clause. Pp. 227-233.

A statute that is on it's face not discriminatory, but made with discriminatory intent, even if enforced in a non-discriminatory way in the modern day, with any sort of disparity, is unconstitutional. Virginia and several other southern states targetted gays for sting operations. Overwhelmingly, gays were targetted for consentual conduct. There cannot be an argument that the law is no longer being enforced by homophobes. The laws were drafted with the intent that heterosexuals, being the lawmakers themselves, would NEVER be targetted for the sodomy statutes.

Think it can't happen? See the Florida Supreme Court case in the 1940's where a white man was charged with violating the Florida concealed weapons statute, and it was thrown out because it was never meant to target white men.

Also, see Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center. A local ordinance was drafted specifically to target "hospitals for the feeble minded". Though not under a racial or gender precedent, the ordinance which gave the city of Cleburne the ability to deny the zoning to the Living Center was generally discriminatory in intent when it was drafted, and the effect was to discriminate against the mentally ill, even if the current city government was not against mentally ill people. It failed even under the lowest amount of judicial scrutiny in 1985.

All of you should be cheering the Lawrence case. You could make the argument that ownership of a firearm in your own home is a full civil right that is enumerated under the right to privacy, and it could still work.

Thanks to Jim March's website for all of the information on the wording of the cases.
 
Given that Texas legalized bestiality in lieu of illegalizing same sex sexual conduct,

Who lied to you?

Texas Penal Code § 21.07. Public Lewdness
...
4) act involving contact between the person's mouth or genitals and the ???? or genitals of an animal or fowl.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

As long as you're being outraged, I would like to point out that Homosexual Conduct was a Class "C" Misdemeanor - punishable by fine only, not to exceed $500.00 -- while the above is a Class "A" Misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not to exceed $4000 or a term in county jail not to exceed one year, or both.

Unintended Consequences.

Thanks to the Supreme Court, homosexual sex in Texas will now fall under the deviate sexual intercourse definition.

In plain language, before the decision two people of the same sex doing the nasty would have been handled, could only have been handled, by an officer writing a citation. And the officer had the choice as to whether or not a citation was even issued.

After the decison, two people of the same sex doing the nasty will be handled by an arrest, bail, trial and a criminal record - with no options being allowed to the officer.

And people think this is a victory for same-sex rights? Oy.

LawDog
 
No one did, you only posted part of 21.07. Here's the FULL text of the penal code:

§ 21.07. Public Lewdness

(a) A person commits an offense if he knowingly engages in any of the following acts in a public place or, if not in a public place, he is reckless about whether another is present who will be offended or alarmed by his:

(1) act of sexual intercourse;
(2) act of deviate sexual intercourse;
(3) act of sexual contact; or
(4) act involving contact between the person's mouth or genitals and the ???? or genitals of an animal or fowl.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.


The unintended consequence of what? Public sex? The 21.06 statute applied equally to private acts as well as public. There is no law in the state of Texas against private sexual conduct with an animal. This was repealed and removed from 21.06 in 1973. The current homosexual conduct statute only referenced deviant sexual intercourse and applied it to acts only between two partners of the same sex.

The law does not give an officer discretion to give a lower penalty, namely, 21.06, in lieu of 21.07. Never did. If you get caught in public having sex with the same sex, you have to be charged with both 21.06 and 21.07, pre-Lawrence. If an officer gives you a pass, it's only because he refused to apply the law.

No part of either statute, whether it be 21.06, or 21.07, gives an exemption to being charged with Public Lewdness under 21.07 if the same act violates 21.06. The law does not say "If you two, as part of the same sex, commit the act in public, violate 21.07, you'll get charged with 21.06 and that's the only thing you could get charged with", as you allege, Lawdog. That would violate equal protection under the 14th amendment if that were the case.

As for public sex being illegal, I have no problem with the state determining that. The Lawrence case only applied to acts that occur between consenting adults in PRIVATE. Remember that the police had to enter Lawrence's apartment and catch Garner and Lawrence having "deviant sexual intercourse", in order to charge them with 21.06.

Btw, since the crime was sexual in nature, both Garner and Lawrence would have had to register as sex offenders, and therefor be subject to monitoring and notification of neighbors laws in Texas and other states if they should chose to move.
 
You are correct in that the Homosexual Conduct statute did apply to both public and private acts. However, if done in private there was no one to report the act, thus the Homosexual Conduct statute was, in fact, only applied to public displays of homosexual conduct.

I'm here to tell you that the text: is reckless about whether another is present is not even close to be the same thing as a private act.

Notice, for example, that being reckless about whether another is present does not mean that someone actually has to be there. There just has to be a chance that someone might come by.

Let me post a "fer instance" that I guarantee will happen in the next year.

There will be a same-sex couple. At some time in the next year, this couple will have either under-age children, or a family with under-age children spend the night.

Some other family member who wasn't there will come unwound, freak out, what have you, and wind up going to local law enforcement, because a child -might- have seen something that the other family member finds offensive.

Prior to the Supreme Court decision, local law enforcement would have: A) written off the incident as a Class "C" misdemeanor, ie., not worth the effort; B)Gone over to the same sex couples house and told them to be more careful next time; or C)Gone over to the same-sex couple and written them a ticket for $150.00.

Those were the only options.

Now, however, when George shows up at the PD screaming that his ex-wife has taken his children over to her homosexual brothers house, and George by-God wants something done about it, local law enforcement no longer has any options or choices in the matter.

*sigh*

Lonnie Wilson, it is my firm belief that what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom is their own business. I don't care what my friends - or anybody else - do or does behind closed doors or who they do it with as long as they are happy.

I was not raised in America, and I don't have 225 years of Puritanism telling me that one sexual thing is okay, and another isn't, okay?

I do know Texas Law, and how it is actually applied in the State of Texas, and I'm here to tell you that it is my firm belief that this ruling from the Supreme Court is going to do bad things to same-sex couples in Texas for a while to come.

It would have been far better to change the statute through the Texas Legislature than to have gone about it in this fashion.

Who knows - I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

LawDog
 
Unintended consequences Part II.

First Lonnie to establish my bona fides, I fought Lon Mabon and the OCA in Oregon every time they presented "special rights" initiatives in the 90s. That said, when "minorities" overturn laws via the courts instead of via the legislative process, the judicial decision short-circuits the dialogue about the issue and kick-starts the "losing" activists, e.g. recent history on the abortion issue, the Civil Rights backlash.

I am afraid you will find that the recent SCOTUS decision is going to light up the cultural conservatives' national effort for a DOMA amendment in a huge way. Fund raising letters are probably being drafted as I write this post.

I understand the fervent belief, such as harbored by State Senator Kate Brown here in Oregon, that same sex marriage is the "inevitable" evolution of this debate. Were I her, I would not be even as sanguine as she is. The judiciary has at its heart a very "bloody" intersection with politics.

The frank point I am trying to make is that there is a heck of a lot of people out there who, when pressed, would never classify homosexuals as worthy of civil rights protections as racial minorities, women, religionists from minor sects, etc., are already classified in civil rights laws and decisions. Whether that attitude is "homophobic" is almost next to irrelevant because that prejudice, such as it is, only remains verboten in public, and then only in college towns and big cities. Will & Grace being on nationwide once a week does not make for national acceptance.

If people thought forced busing, school funding lawsuits, white flight, abortion blockades and violence, were bad just wait until some liberal activist judge in the Northeast somewhere allows for a gay marriage to go forward and follow what happens when activists in the gay community press forward everywhere for recognition on full faith and credit grounds. The backlash is going to be fierce, and unlike the politically incorrect backlash against blacks, will be largely immune to demonization from the left. The right won't care, they'll have God on their side and they won't be as marginal as they are in the abortion debate as demonizing gays is way easier than demonizing women.

So in a curious way, the recent case overturning Bowers v. Hardwick was eventually going to happen anyways. The problem is that the revision is too early. Gay rights have come along way in 17 years, but that is too short a time frame for such a profound national attitude shift to come to the point of ho-hum acceptance, (especially of the more in your face subcultures). The coming full-court press for rights, including marriage, by the gay community is doomed to backfire badly I think.

Had this debate been allowed by the court to fully flower, the gay community would eventually arrive where they want to be. I believe that will not happen now that the debate is supercharged by a decision a great portion of the citizenry are in no position to accept and now never will accept. They will fight back and they will probably enshrine an amendment into the constitution if the popularity of the Federal DOMA was any indication.
 
Lonnie,

Your line of reasoning leaves out one important distinction between the Texas sodomy case and the cases you cite. Namely, discrimination in the other cases was on the basis of a physiological characteristic, not a behavior. A person's physiology is the primary characteristic that distinguishes them as a "person", thus triggering he 14th. Now, despite a few well-publicized "studies" that cropped up a few years ago that purported to show that homosexuality was in the genes (using questionable science and poor logic), the overwhelming concensus among the medical and scientific community is that homosexuality is not a physiological characterisitc. Call it a lifestyle choice or whatever. It is still a behavior. Blacks were not barred from universities in the south because they acted "black" but rather because they were black. Likewise, discrimination against the elderly and women is disallowed by the 14th not because people act "old" or "feminine" but because the physiological traits which make them different. Behavior, OTOH, is the basis for all criminal statutues. IOW, shoplifters are not arrested because they think about stealing, but because they actually do it. Now, you may ask, why are then these same sexual behaviors not prohibited by opposite sex couples? Well because by definition they are not an act of homosexuality. Oral sex is not oral sex is not oral sex. Between boys and girls, it is an act of heterosexuality; between boys and boys, it is homosexual behavior. The Texas stature was aimed directly at criminalzing a certain, specific class of sexual behavior that can be easily classified by the participants.

I know that you take personal offense at these laws because you are gay (much more so than a straight person who might also be offended), and I am not asking you to agree with them. Hate these laws as much as you want, but if you want to be objective, you need to look beyond the emotionalism and see the Constitutional perspective. These laws are not in the same class as the discrimination laws of the old south that were aimed against blacks.

You won't see massacres against homosexuals nowadays because you have the Pink Pistols, and of course, the media would have a field day with it.

Give me a break. The Pink Pistols and the media are not preventing a homosexual massacre. The Pink Pistols have only been around a few years and the media has only been truly liberal in the sense that they are sensitive to gay issues since the 1960s. Homosexuality has been tolerated largely without incident for over two hundred years in this country even by religious conservatives. To imply anything to the contrary is simply vitriol.
 
I can see from this thread and the news that homosexual rights might be in trouble in the near future, especially considering that the Senate majority leader is on record in support of an amendment banning gay marriage. Forget the 14th! Last time I checked marriage was a religious affair, and what ever happened to the 1st amendment? Of all the dumb things a conservative Christian Republican can do, suggesting a ban on gay marriage is about the dumbest, guaranteed to upset virtually all marginalized religions, as well as everyone who isn't similarly homophobic.

And I agree that because of the UMich case, there's going to be a whole lot of this: "If I grab a woman's ???, and she punches me, she's fighting for her rights, but if a faggot grabs my ???, and I punch his lights out, I'm a homophobe." (Parker, WotG)

Various states ban combinations of hetero- and homosexual conduct, sodomy, and bestiality. I agree that some of those are arguably just as bad as statutes banning homosexual conduct, either because they should legitimately reside behind the legal shield of privacy or because the laws are overbroad. But I don't see how that's relevant. The Court did the right thing in this case. Lawdog, the fact that there's a worse crime in TX is Texas' problem, not the U.S. Supreme Court's. I gather that the other law you mention was not involved in the case, so the SCOTUS could not explicitly strike it down as a violation of privacy (to the extent that it is overbroad). What did you want them to do, uphold the lesser law and let public opinion chew on their words for years before someone from another state would have been brave enough to request Cert?
 
Call it a lifestyle choice or whatever. It is still a behavior.

"Acting black" is not something that is innate in people. "Acting black" is from cultural upbringing.

rock jock, I can tell that your school of thought is that being gay is a choice. I've heard the "ex-gays" say it was because they didn't have a father. When confronted with my story, they backpedal and say it was because I was living exclusively with my father for 10 years. Who's right here? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I have never had sexual desires for women. EVER. I can't even bring myself to have sex with a woman, even when I had throwing herself at me.

In Texas, I would have had to stay celibate in order to stay within the law. Same in all of the other sodomy law states.

As for the "without regards" part of what Lawdog said, two can play at that game. If there's a rash of prosecutions against gay parents for that, then it can go the other way around. In any case, if we hang, we all hang together.

I would eschew the general prohibition on homosexuality conduct for all places, public and private, for a prohibition on public lewdness that applies to all.
 
Lonnie,

I don't doubt your personal testimony for a minute. The factors that lead a person to be gay are complicated and cannot be definitively linked in all cases to any specific environmental influences (cultural or upbringing) or physiological predilections. I'm sure you would agree with this. I also agree with you that in some, perhaps most, cases, gay people do not make a conscious decision to be attracted to members of the same sex. That having been said, there is quite a bit of evidence that people that engage in any number of behaviors do not make conscious decisions to do so, but rather feel compelled to follow that behavioral path. Examples include alcoholics, pedophiles, and serial murderers. The point is there is no evidence that homosexuality is keyed into a person's genes, i.e., that it is a physiological trait.
 
Re: probability of backlash.

The number of GLBTs is probably in the same order of magnitude as a % of the population as the people who get carry permits and/or tote illegally. I don't see us worrying about public backlash to Vermont carry...though a lot of people are as opposed to our right to carry as to GLBT's right to be intimate with a partner in private.
 
Last time I checked marriage was a religious affair,
Tyme, with all due respect, that is a little naive. You need a STATE LICENSE to get married and the civil marriage is the only one the STATE recognizes to my knowledge.

The underlying issue nobody has mentioned is not the warm fuzzies of happily married bliss denied, but the entitlement to bennies that come from a STATE sanctioned dependency relationship. Frankly, I have enough tax liability already to oppose any other fringe groups getting on the fringe benny teat. :uhoh:
 
BigG,

The underlying issue nobody has mentioned is not the warm fuzzies of happily married bliss denied, but the entitlement to bennies that come from a STATE sanctioned dependency relationship.

Which would be more ethical: Letting same-sex couples in on State-Sanctioned marriage, or getting Big Brother out of the marriage biz altogether? ;)
 
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