Why WOULD Sig say, "It's the WWB, don't use it".

[45_auto]

I bought a couple boxes in Texas that had mil spec primers which my gun wouldn't always ignite.

How do you know the WWB ammo had "mil spec" primers?

What do you believe the difference is between "mil spec" pistol primers and "civilian" pistol primers?

I've used CCI #41 small RIFLE primers (probably what you're referring to as "mil spec", they're designed to resist impact by floating firing pins) in pistol loads for many years. Can't tell any difference between them and Winchester, Wolf, or other CCI primers in pistol loads, and none of my pistols have any trouble igniting them.

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=30

If your carry gun won't shoot mil spec ammo, you need to be getting it fixed. That's pretty basic stuff.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I haven't used WWB in years -- after a number of problems in several different guns, but mostlly CZs.

Back then, the extractor crease (for want of a better way to describe it) -- the indented area at the bottom of the case immediately, above the rim -- was shaped differently in WWB than most brands. The indentation (where the extractor hook would grasp the rim) was shaped like > rather than \ -- the bottom wasn't flat. Some extractors, and the ones in my CZs in particular, couldn't get a good grip.

I don't know if that is still the case with their ammo -- I suspect not -- but WWB was NOT my favorite ammo and I've only picked up a box or two in the past 7-8 years. (My past experience may have nothing to do with the current variety.)

 

[bannockburn]

I have had mixed results with WWB in my Glock 17 and Walther P-1. Everything else works fine with it, including thousands of rounds through a Sterling Mk. VI carbine.

 

[hentown]

Pretty simple to tailor recoil springs to ammo strength. WWB is pretty weak crap.

 

[TarDevil]

How do you know the WWB ammo had "mil spec" primers?

What do you believe the difference is between "mil spec" pistol primers and "civilian" pistol primers?

You can read all about it here, if interested...
Light Stikes or Bad Ammio

If your carry gun won't shoot mil spec ammo, you need to be getting it fixed. That's pretty basic stuff.

1,700 otherwise flawless rounds... my gun is fine.

 

[Tirod]

What is the purpose of a CCW gun? To reliably fire defensive ammo - not the cheapest economy round made on the market.

I've not heard anyone of repute recommending WWB as a carry load.

When you attempt to expand the range of ammo a firearm has to use, you increase the window of operation, but are you necessarily making it a more reliable system? The Army went in the opposite direction - they restrict the loads available, keep the bullet weight to a narrow window, require the ammo to provide a minimum force projection, and thereby increase reliability that the weapon using it will function. There are fewer variables.

Civilian loads can range up to 50% in the spread, one projectile weight vs the other. That means the gas propulsion will vary significantly. Light loads may not cycle the action, heavy loads will batter the gun.

Saying guns will be judged by being able to fire any ammo shoved in them seems counterproductive. I would prefer a gun that fires reliably with it's designed ammo as a system for it's intent.

Put that WWB thru guns tuned to use it, and take the advantages of a bit less recoil and accuracy as far as you like. In a CCW carry gun, no thanks. I'd rather see my P938 tuned to handle Critical Defense loads, not the cheapest fodder out there. That's the design intent - self defense. Shooting WWB is something you can do, but it doesn't mean you should. It's false economy that only ensures less reliability.

I suppose you can run 85 octane in a car specified to need premium. But taking it to the track and demanding it run just as well seems uninformed. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Orion8472]

Agreed on the cheap ammo. However, can someone explain how JUST being cheap [or maybe slightly less power] can result in the casing only being pulled about 1/4th - 1/3rd way out of the chamber and the next round pushing up on it as the slide is trying to strip the next round? To me, it sounds more like a bad extractor, . . . but I could be missing an important "gun physics" fact.

 

[Fishbed77]

A bit of a cop-out on SIG's part. I've run WWB in most semi-auto pistols I've owned, and never had a problem with it.

 

[tommy.duncan]

Has the pistol gone through a "break in"?
I have shot WWB out of my entire collection and never had any problems. I know Sig's can be a little funny about ammo, but after about 500 rounds they start shooting just about anything.

 

[candr44]

I've had problems with WWB failure to extract in a few of my pistols. They worked fine with any other ammo but only the WWB caused extraction problems. Although, in many of my pistols WWB wasn't a problem at all.

On the pistols that did have an extraction problem I installed a stronger extractor spring and that often cured it. One or two of my pistols still had extraction problems with WWB though but only rarely, so I just use different ammo in those guns.

If you search around the internet, you will find that this is an old problem with WWB.

 

[ATLDave]

As others have said, small locked-breech guns have smaller operating windows. They often will not accommodate as wide a range of operating pressures as a larger gun; they have to be set up to run hot or soft ammo reliably, and something at the other end won't be as reliable.

WWB can be very soft. It will not always make even minor power factor out of full-sized guns. Set up a tiny gun to run WWB, and you may have problems when shooting SD stuff.

 

[wally]

I could care less what the name on the slide of the gun is.. If it cannot run WWB its a malfunctioning weapon.

I'd agree completely, even with Wolf or Tula as the ammo brand, until you get to the sub-compact pistols. These just don't have large operating margins and often show ammo sensitivity. Either stick with larger pistols or try to find what works for your pistol. As I said if three or four brands fail in the same way, then its time for a call to customer service.

 

[TarDevil]

As I said if three or four brands fail in the same way, then its time for a call to customer service.

Nailed it. That's why we preach over and over to run enough ammo to make sure YOUR gun (not just the make/model, but that SPECIFIC gun) likes your ammo of choice.

I'd never use WWB for SD anyway. However, there might be some value in practicing with it, since we're supposed to prepare for malfunctions, no?

 

[Orion8472]

The use of WWB in my P938 is just for practice and running rounds through it. I would never use them in a defensive role. Just need to make sure you all know that. Thanks!

I'm going to the range after work to run a couple more other FMJ brands in it. I'm the second owner, so I won't be able to get it fixed for no charge from Sig. The guy on the phone pointed that out.

 

[dogtown tom]

How many of you have torn open the little envelope with the spent cartridge case inside?

A surprising number of firearm manufacturers use CCI Blazer aluminum for their test fires.

 

[wally]

A surprising number of firearm manufacturers use CCI Blazer aluminum for their test fires.

CCI has a reputation of having the hardest primers, so this makes some amount of sense, and Blazer is cheap. What is in the envelope would be a good brand to start with!

Weatherby writes the exact ammo brand and bullet used on the test targets they include with their rifles.

 

[kokapelli]

I use and carry WWB fmj/fp in all my micro 380 pistols and unlike some other brands of 380 ammo have never had a failure of any kind with the WWB fmj/fp.

 

[tarosean]

I'd agree completely, even with Wolf or Tula as the ammo brand, until you get to the sub-compact pistols. These just don't have large operating margins and often show ammo sensitivity.

It's still a timing issue with the gun...

 

[SwampWolf]

A good mainstream gun should be able to function well with good mainstream ammo. I find WWB to be perfectly fine ammo in several different calibers, despite the internet anecdotes. You must have called Sig when the real customer service guy was on break and his kid was filling in.

I agree with this statement (and I own several SIG pistols that I'm very happy with). I use a lot of WWB ammunition in a lot of guns and have never experienced any more issues with the stuff than I've had with any other brand.
I'll be surprised that when the op tries different brands of hard ball ammunition in his pistol, that he won't have the same problem as he's having now with WWB. I hope I'm wrong and get surprised.

 

[WYO]

I have had 2-Sig P938s. The first was a 3-digit serial numbered model that gave me some trouble with WWB 115 grain in the beginning. The ejection pattern on that round was substantially weaker than the ejection pattern of 124 grain Gold Dots that worked really well. The gun eventually was replaced by Sig with a later serial numbered model gun, and that gun has been 100% for about 700 rounds consisting mostly of 124 Blazer and Gold Dots along with some 115 grain full strength handloads. I have not tried WWB in the replacement gun, and there is no reason for me to tempt fate with it. I don’t carry it with WWB.

I have written a lot about the model on forums, and some of the things I learned are that the gun is really tight in the beginning, it needs to be liberally lubricated with the grease that Sig supplies with the gun, and it needs to be relubricated frequently because it dries out fast. Throwing ammo into the mix that does not equal full powered carry ammo can exacerbate problems associated with a new, dry gun. A lot of people seem to think that you can take a 20 ounce (loaded) pocket gun that fires a high pressure round and run it exactly the same as a full sized gun. It just is not designed for that and cannot be expected to perform like a full sized gun. It also is not a good gun for a novice.

What the P938 is to me is a replacement for a pocket snubbie, not a replacement for a P226. In that application the P938 excels, giving me accuracy and power at 25 yards that I cannot come close to matching with the snubbie.

 

[Orion8472]

I would still like someone to address my question above, "Can someone explain how JUST being cheap ammo [or maybe slightly less power] can result in the casing only being pulled about 1/4th - 1/3rd way out of the chamber and the next round pushing up on it as the slide is trying to strip the next round? To me, it sounds more like a bad extractor, . . . but I could be missing an important "gun physics" fact.

 

[ATLDave]

I would still like someone to address my question above, "Can someone explain how JUST being cheap ammo [or maybe slightly less power] can result in the casing only being pulled about 1/4th - 1/3rd way out of the chamber and the next round pushing up on it as the slide is trying to strip the next round? To me, it sounds more like a bad extractor, . . . but I could be missing an important "gun physics" fact.

If the slide doesn't get driven hard enough by recoil, it won't go all the way to the rear. That may not get the casing out of the chamber, or may not get it all the way to the ejector, so it stays stuck on/in the extractor. But the magazine spring is still going to push up the next round, and the lower edge of breech face may shove it forward. Now you've got an empty casing still stuck on the extractor, and a new cartridge jamming everything in place. Voila, you've got exactly the kind of jam you described.

If you load just one round in the magazine, will the slide reliably lock back?

 

[WYO]

The particular type of malfunction that I experienced, and that I believe Orion is describing, is a fired case that remains, or partially remains, in the chamber and is not captured by the extractor. I know that Sig has upgraded the extractors since the earliest versions, and has replaced extractors on earlier guns where people have sent them back with this complaint. I don't have enough knowledge to be able to answer the question, though, as to why it tends to happen with weak ammo.

 

[45_auto]

1,700 otherwise flawless rounds... my gun is fine.

Your gun, your decision. I personally prefer to not have to use the word "otherwise" when describing my gun's performance.

 

[glocking26]

The bolt in my full auto Uzi is very heavy and WWB 9mm ammo works great. I find it's one of the more powerful target rounds out there. It clocks in at about 750rpm.Now Remington green box ammo it is very weak and it clocks in at 550 rpm. My full auto Mac 10 will run 1200rpm on WWB. I love it.