Why Yell A "STOP" Or Warning?

[txhoghunter]

I drew aimed and fired then said halt or I'll shoot.

What you meant was, "Halt, or I'll shoot *again*"

 

[coloradokevin]

Why Yell A "STOP" Or Warning?
I've noticed that many training programs seem to include a "compliance" yell or warning of some sort immediately before shooting. For example, in the Thunder Ranch videos Clint yells "STOP!" before shooting, or actually *during* shooting. Others yell "put the gun down" or something more elaborate. My question is really simple

Why?

1) Yelling "stop" shouldn't make you give away critical seconds, when you need those seconds. You can shoot and yell at the same time, if needed, and you can yell as you are drawing your weapon.

2) There isn't a black-and-white rule on this. In some cases it wouldn't be beneficial to yell "stop", but in other instances it might end the fight before bullets fly. Most of us aren't hoping to kill someone, so stopping the threat at the last second could be useful.

3) Yelling commands is as useful from a CYA perspective as it is for any other reason. Witnesses often hear these commands, and report them in their statements to the police. It certainly can't hurt you if someone reports: "I heard him yell ["stop", "drop the gun", etc], then I heard a gunshot". In essence, yelling these commands lets the people around you know that you aren't the primary aggressor in the incident.

 

[Sheldon J]

Yelling a warning in public may be a good PC, but I vote it as a bad idea, BG shooting people, and now you warn him hence making yourself his new point of focus...

Real bad thought process that, in a gun fight split seconds count.....

To quote Uncle Fester of the Adams family "Shoot him in the back" (and live to see another day)

 

[HorseSoldier]

Yelling a warning in public may be a good PC, but I vote it as a bad idea, BG shooting people, and now you warn him hence making yourself his new point of focus...

Actually, shouting a command at the bad guy creates an OODA loop he has to work through. It may attract attention to you and make you a target, but it forces him to process data and act on it, so it's not pure downside and not a surefire recipe to catch a round right back at you.

It is also, obviously, less safe than just shooting -- and so we get back to the situational what ifs and such.

 

[BikerRN]

This is a very interesting thread, and one that I have some expirience in.

If at all possible I will issue commands, as that is the safest and cost me the least, while affording me the opportunity that I may not have to discharge my weapon.

In two of my three situations I issued no commands, that I can recall. We will have to wait and see if I issue them on the fourth occassion, which I hope never to have.

BikerRN

 

[Loosedhorse]

Actually, shouting a command at the bad guy creates an OODA loop he has to work through.

Likely, but not necessarily true. What the command may trigger is a reflexive, unaimed snap-shot in your direction. If you're close and not behind cover--or if he's just lucky--that unaimed part doesn't matter.

Boyd talked about the fact that he himself avoided the OODA trap by having a pre-set maneuver (or series of maneuvers) that he performed immediately on receiving the triggering stimulus. Training, anticipation, or "reflex" can produce that type of quick reaction.

 

[Ben86]

It would be wrong to say it is always a good idea to yell a verbal warning. You have to judge each situation on it's own merit. There are valid arguments both for and against. Some say it may prevent you from having to shoot, and at the very least paints a picture to bystanders that you are the victim. Other say it is tactically unsound. Both arguments make sense, so judge it on a case by case basis.

 

[Averageman]

I know it isn't necassary in my State, I am trying to understand the logic here.
So the Guy is dangerous to my Family or myself; otherwise why would I shoot him?
If he is a danger, why warn him?
Seems like simple Big Boy rules.

 

[BikerRN]

I know it isn't necassary in my State, I am trying to understand the logic here.
So the Guy is dangerous to my Family or myself; otherwise why would I shoot him?
If he is a danger, why warn him?
Seems like simple Big Boy rules.

The problem is that juries, and even many local prosecutors, don't play by "big boy" rules.

BikerRN

 

[Averageman]

The problem is that juries, and even many local prosecutors, don't play by "big boy" rules.

Based upon the premise So the Guy is dangerous to my Family or myself; otherwise why would I shoot him? It might never see a jury.
If I yell a warning and shoot and there are 15 witnesses all milling about before hand minding there business, there would be 15 different stories; some remebering a warning, some not.
By the time it gets to jury most wont be able to remember the exact date or the clothes they wore.
This is why "Eye" witnesses are so unreliable.
In the words of an Attorney I once used "Boy you need the best Lawyer you can't afford." He was right, I could not afford him, so I made payments.
The bottom line for me is;
If
The problem is that juries, and even many local prosecutors, don't play by "big boy" rules.
thats the case, I will keep playing by them and live my life the right way and not regret any of it. I refuse to cower in the shadow of "What Ifs????"

 

[BikerRN]

The problem is that juries, and even many local prosecutors, don't play by "big boy" rules.

thats the case, I will keep playing by them and live my life the right way and not regret any of it. I refuse to cower in the shadow of "What Ifs????"

One should always do what they think is right.

 

[sharpie414]

lol all the walls of text arguing over "OMG YOU MIGHT TO GO JAIL"


get shot dead or go to jail for a little bit....this has to be a joke right?

 

[Fred Fuller]

get shot dead or go to jail for a little bit

It's not as if there's a clear cut either-or separation in possible outcomes. And people convicted of murder or manslaughter seldom go to jail "for a little bit."

this has to be a joke right

Being forced to shoot and/or kill an assailant, or being severely injured or possibly killed in an attack, is hardly a joking matter. If you're looking for jokes, there are far better places to search for them than in ST&T...

lpl

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

"I'd like a lawyer."

You should ALWAYS say that no matter the circumstances if you had to shoot.

 

[ErikO]

You also have to be careful when you that you satisfay ALL castle rules. A good friend of mine is now a felon and can no longer protect his home/family with anything besides a cell phone and a black powder shortarm due to not being sober when he shot a BG in his home several years ago. And that wasn't 'a short time' but 5 yrs in a state max pen due to several factors.

I am hoping that either someone that is desperate enough to want to try and get something from my house while I am home has some degree of survival instinct and chooses to flee or else that I am able to provide a good statement to the LEOs that respond to the horrible act of having to take a life.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Based upon the premise So the Guy is dangerous to my Family or myself; otherwise why would I shoot him? It might never see a jury.

Or it might, and even if no criminal prosecution is involved you might find yourself involved in a civil case that if lost financially destroys you and your family.

If you're only preparing for best case scenarios, why carry a weapon at all?

 

[Averageman]

I'm not.
I am a big fan of high priced lawyers and a legal system that makes the civil case a tough nut to crack. You see if you bring someone to court on a civil matter and it is groundless...I.E. the family of a scumbag wants a payoff, well they don't get one.
What they do get is to pay my legal fee and court costs if they are fishing for a pay day.
I suppose I could even come back at them for a variety of things, but I would leave that up to the Attorney of mine they would essentially pay for. if they want to push things.
I dont fool around, dont want no trouble and give none to anyone. You cross that line and come in to my house or after a Family member and if I can't legally shoot you I will legally brake you.

 

[WardenWolf]

Why yell stop? So you don't have to kill someone if you don't have to. Granted, if someone's in my home, and they don't have their back to me, I'm not going to give them any warning since that would give away my element of surprise. Arizona law supports this, and also bars civil prosecution by anyone with any relation to the criminal. If they try to run into almost any room after I yell stop, I will also open fire since there are firearms in most rooms in the house and I can say that their running there would give them access to a deadly weapon.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I am a big fan of high priced lawyers and a legal system that makes the civil case a tough nut to crack. You see if you bring someone to court on a civil matter and it is groundless...I.E. the family of a scumbag wants a payoff, well they don't get one.

To each their own and all, but to me you're coming across as someone who isn't very serious about this topic. Having had a number of friends and colleagues sued for use of deadly force and other issues, I'm pretty aware of the legal battlefield shaping aspects of things like shouted warnings and rendering aid after you've used deadly force. I prefer to stack the deck as far in my favor as possible. If you think a generic sense of righteousness will see you through the court system after a shooting, good luck to you if you ever actually have to deal with it.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

The goal is to survive physically. But very important secondary goals are to survive mentally and legally.

When the gunfight is over you want as many people to attest to your lawful actions as you can. Even the most gun hating gun grabbers cannot deny that you yelled, "Drop the weapon" before you fired. Witnesses to the incident are going to be providing written statments to the police anyway. Wouldn't you like them to state you gave clear, consistent, and repeated commands to the aggressor?

This pretty much summs it up.

 

[wgaynor]

Probably depends on the scenario and where you live. In my house, if there is an intruder, I don't warn, I shoot. Castle Doctrine will protect you. Only protects you inside the house though.

If a person is out to do you harm, the jury may not believe your life was in danger if you had time to try and persuade the guy to stop.

It is better to be judged than to be buried.

 

[Averageman]

To each their own and all, but to me you're coming across as someone who isn't very serious about this topic. Having had a number of friends and colleagues sued for use of deadly force and other issues, I'm pretty aware of the legal battlefield shaping aspects of things like shouted warnings and rendering aid after you've used deadly force. I prefer to stack the deck as far in my favor as possible. If you think a generic sense of righteousness will see you through the court system after a shooting, good luck to you if you ever actually have to deal with it.
Well I am very serious about it, have thought it through and decided the path to take.
We live in a Country where we have a Court System, not a JUSTICE system. You win your freedom based upon how good your Attorney manipulates a Jury and Judge.
We aren't in a boxing ring here, there are no gloves or weight classes, referee or corner to throw in the towel for you. Roscoe P. Crackhead doesn't care if you live or die when he is creeping in to your daughters bedroom at night. He wants what he wants..If you want to protect her you better fight as dirty as you can, as fast as you can and worry about the rest later.
If you want to worry about his rights and his attorney and what the jury will think about you,..well I would maybe you should just take up Golf and let your safety be held in the hands of Fate.
Get a Gun(S) and learn to use it, practise and get professional training.
Get an Attorney and pay the $$ for a good one, consult him on how to handle the situation before it comes up.
All the rest is internet speculation.

 

[kingcheese]

its pretty simple, if you offer your attacker a chance to give up, then there is going to be a lot less trouble for you down the road, there was a shooting around where i live last year, a police officer shot a young man in the stomach(he survived) because he walked up to him with a knife, the police car was equiped with audio/video recording, the shot wasnt recorded visually, but in the audio, the police officer clearly gave a verbal warning, ending a lot of peoples negative views toward him, because people had thought he was just a little over-stressed and shot for fun

true storey, i hate the idots i live around, it was clearly self deffense on the officers part, and people want to talk about him like he was trash, its disgusting

 

[Zwetschgen]

This is interesting for sure, but I suspect that we are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. There are just too many situations where it would depend on the situation. Some examples I have thought of include rape. Rape is a forcible felony and in my state if the victim of a forcible felony would be justified to use deadly force, then I am justified to use deadly force on their behalf so to speak. If I encounted someone being raped (I don't know where I would experience this, truck stop maybe?) would I immediately fire? While legally I am permitted to do so, it would not necessarily be the best option. Too many variables to say this is the right way or this is the wrong way. I do not like the phrase "Drop your weapon" because there are instances where the assailant may not have a weapon (man vs. woman, infirm vs. able-bodied, 1 vs. 6, etc.)
I understand also the valid point that if you are legally allowed to shoot you are not legally required to say anything, in fact it is my understanding that I have the right to remain silent. I think it would be beneficial to consider more closely how to avoid such situations as well as remembering our threat levels, and keeping clear of these situation. If someone is making me nervous and I am going into a code yellow I will probably engage them in conversation before it escalates to the point of drawing or giving any kind of command. Avoidance.

 

[Lord Teapot]

I dont think I will be doing much yelling of commands or warnings when it comes to clear leather...

agreed, if i've been forced to draw down on someone, the time for talk has passed.