WI: March 12th submachine gun shoot CANCELLED

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Monkeyleg

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Dear fellow gun owner:

Our scheduled March 12th fund-raising submachine gun shoot has received a lot of attention. Unfortunately, not all of that attention has been good.

The potential--and I must emphasize the word "potential"--for our opponents to turn this into an ugly situation has become apparent to me.

While subgun shoots take place all the time, this was first and foremost a political event. As such, we are held to a higher standard.

My intention in organizing the shoot was to let you come and shoot some expensive and exotic guns and have a good time, and not to get you involved in a potentially sticky situation.

Perhaps I'm being overly cautious, but I hope you'll understand that I'm doing so with you in mind.

Therefore, I've decided to cancel the shoot.

If you have already mailed a check to the WCCM for the event, I will return your check to you uncashed.

Because this event has received such wide publicity, I would appreciate it if you would forward this email to everyone you know, and also post it on every internet gun-related site you're aware of. Some people had planned on driving great distances, and I want to make sure they're aware of the cancellation.

I'm sure that this is a disappointment for many of you, and I sincerely apologize. I hope you'll understand and appreciate my intentions and my concerns.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA, WCCM
 
That's unfortunate.
Good luck to the cheeseheads on getting your carry laws fixed! Keep at it, you'll have your day.

/former Minnesotan

--Chris
 
Bump...

Mods, can this be a sticky for 1-2 days? So everyone has a chance to find out?
 
Last edited:
Well, tomorrow's Journal Sentinel will be interesting. Spivak and Bice have been calling all day.

Who knows what they're going to write.
 
Spivak & Bice?

Give em' squat...

Check your PM's, I'm dropping off a check for $40 to the WCCM anyway... :cuss:
 
Another email from another brave soul:

I am sorry to hear about the cancellation of the gun shoot. It's sad that
you would throw away so much money to help our cause in getting concealed
carry in WI. It's also sad that you can't trust the supporters of our cause
to be able to stick up for themselves against the media. Now it seems you
have also fallen to governer Doyle's tactics and his support in the media.
The anti-gunners, it seems have won again, and you sir, have given them the
victory. I guess it is all politics when it comes to the issues the citizens
care about, our assembley was swayed on their vote and now you have swayed
from what the people wanted. You have lost a supporter, because I want a
leader that stands up for what they believe in no matter how hot it gets in
the kitchen, apparently you are not that leader.

Lost supporter,
JT


My response to him:

Hello, Jeremy.

Would you have been willing to show up at that shoot, be arrested and cuffed and charged with a felony?

Without going into specific details and naming particular people, that's what we were up against. The last two days have been living Hell, and I've only slept a couple of hours.

You are more than welcome to call yourself a "lost supporter."

However, you have no idea how close this came to having Governor Doyle or Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager order all the people at the shoot arrested.

If you still feel some antagonism toward me, please go check out the "WCCA bashing" thread on the Wisconsin page at www.packing.org.

If, after that, you still feel antagonism, then I don't know what to say.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA, WCCM


f****n little p***k
 
Monkeyleg said:
Another email from another brave soul:

I am sorry to hear about the cancellation of the gun shoot. It's sad that
you would throw away so much money to help our cause in getting concealed
carry in WI. It's also sad that you can't trust the supporters of our cause
to be able to stick up for themselves against the media. Now it seems you
have also fallen to governer Doyle's tactics and his support in the media.
The anti-gunners, it seems have won again, and you sir, have given them the
victory. I guess it is all politics when it comes to the issues the citizens
care about, our assembley was swayed on their vote and now you have swayed
from what the people wanted. You have lost a supporter, because I want a
leader that stands up for what they believe in no matter how hot it gets in
the kitchen, apparently you are not that leader.

Lost supporter,
JT


My response to him:

Hello, Jeremy.

Would you have been willing to show up at that shoot, be arrested and cuffed and charged with a felony?

Without going into specific details and naming particular people, that's what we were up against. The last two days have been living Hell, and I've only slept a couple of hours.

You are more than welcome to call yourself a "lost supporter."

However, you have no idea how close this came to having Governor Doyle or Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager order all the people at the shoot arrested.

If you still feel some antagonism toward me, please go check out the "WCCA bashing" thread on the Wisconsin page at www.packing.org.

If, after that, you still feel antagonism, then I don't know what to say.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA, WCCM


f****n little p***k
Click to expand...
Honestly I think calling him names is unnecessary, the original letter is vague and seems soft. I think you'd be a better response from your supporters if you were more specific about what is preventing you from doing it and why, they they could know what they were up against and if it was a problem that was able to be overcome. I understand your stress but I think the people are disappointed and see this as getting kicked while they're down with no justification and might be taking it out on you unnecessarily.
 
I would guess that Dick didn't actualy put the last part in his reply. It's venting four our benifit :)

Also, be patient. I'm sure what he's telling us is only what he can at this time.

If there's one thing I think Dick has been consistent on over the years in our battle is that he's just as concerned about WI's CCW supporters as he is about CCW itself.
 
Soybomb, I didn't call him the *** names in my reply. I thought my reply was polite, considering his comments.

I'm not applying for martyr status, nor am I shopping for a cross to be hung upon.

This should have been just like any other subgun shoots that happen two, three or more times a month around the state.

Except for Governor Doyle.

Every word I want to utter right now would have Art's Grammaw slap me silly.

These little pissant critics never have the balls to leave their real names. The people who've done the real work--including THR members like Hunter Rose, AJ Dual, Andrew Walkowiak, Sturmruger, and others (sorry if I forgot someone)--aren't afraid to criticize and leave their real names.

Little keyboard masurbators like "Jeremy" above need to have their asses thrown across the hood of a squad, get cuffed, go "downtown" and have some really tough cops use tough tactics, and then see how brave they are.

Been there, done that.

I was warned. I was warned that someone I called a friend would just rat me out to save his own skin. And it didn't even take cops to do it. Just a couple of very aggressive reporters.
 
This whole thing SUCKS!!! I'll save my comments for a time when I'm not as angry as I am right now.

Here's the Milwaukee Journal's story -

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=403791

Drop your weapons!

Plans to use submachine guns to raise money to oust Gov. Jim Doyle have been shot down.

Richard Baker, top dog at the Wisconsin Concealed Carry Movement, thought he could raise a few grand by inviting supporters to TheShooters Shop in West Allis for five hours of target practice, complete with a variety of automatic weapons, a.k.a. submachine guns.

Doyle has twice vetoed measures that would legalize the carrying of concealed weapons in Wisconsin.

"The $40 contribution to the WCCM covers the cost of range time and the use of any or all submachine guns you want to shoot," said an e-mail from Baker promoting the March 12 event. "Your participation in this event won't just be fun. It will also make Doyle's corrupt regime a footnote in history."

Now there's a fund-raiser that should fire up the troops.

Baker even pitched the shoot-a-thon as a way to bring families together, to fire a few rounds and to complain about Doyle.

"There is no age limit for those participating, so you're welcome to bring your sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, etc., as your guests," the e-mail said. But it added this word of caution: "Please be realistic, though, as to whether your young guests will be able to handle full-auto guns. You know them; we don't."

All was going well, with a dozen or so people already signing up. Baker was hoping to attract more than 100 supporters, on his way to raising $60,000 to spend on this year's governor's race.

But then fellow firearm fanatic Jim Fendry, head of the Wisconsin Pro-Gun Movement, raised questions about the legality of passing around machine guns that can rip off 800 rounds a minute. Fendry suggested that state law might require each shooter, not just the Green Bay dealer bringing the exotic weapons, to get the blessing of a top law enforcement type.

Baker, who tries to keep a low profile - he wouldn't even say what he does for a living, fearing it would alienate clients - didn't want to tempt fate and said he immediately put the kibosh on the rootin' tootin' fund-raiser.

"Having that as a fund-raiser for a political action committee puts it into a more political realm," Baker said. He noted that in the past, he had allowed his customers to fire an "Eliot Ness-type" submachine gun that he used to own. "This is more high profile. I have concerns, very serious concerns, for how Governor Doyle would respond to this. What would he do?"

So the fear of the long arm of the law killed the event - at least that's Baker's story, and he's sticking to it.

But Kevin Nugent, owner of The Shooters Shop, has a different take on why the event was muzzled.

"When we found out this was a political fund-raiser against the governor, I canceled it," Nugent said, point-blank. "We are non-partisan."

The gun store is not opposed to submachine guns, or even allowing the weapons to be shared on its firing range. Occasionally, the range is rented out for bachelor or bachelorette parties, where somebody brings a tommy gun or an Uzi to fire off.

Nugent also would be OK with raising cash for the concealed carry movement.

"Obviously, I am for concealed carry. I own a gun store," Nugent said. "But I like to keep out of the political arena."

Doyle's people are smirking a bit as they watch the pair duel. The governor's handlers will even gladly accept the blame for blowing up the planned event.

"Most sane people would agree that stopping a fund-raiser where they're nutty enough to hand out machine guns is to the advantage of public safety," campaign flack Melanie Fonder said Thursday. "Anytime you have the concealed-carry gun lobby lining up against you, you're doing something right."
Click to expand...
 
Can you point out why and how Governor Doyle and AG Peggy can arrest you for a completely legal activity? The head of the Wisconsin Pro-Gun movement is flat out wrong.

There are hundreds of ranges nationwide that rent out machine guns to shoot, WITHOUT doing the transfer tax paperwork, because under the NFA, ownership of the firearm is what is required to be required to do the transfer tax. It's not like felons where you can't even touch a firearm or ammunition without being thrown in the can for 10-15 years.

Also sounds like Nugent sold us out too.
 
If the article is correct and Nugent did back down, he's seen my last gun dollar - and I've purchased at least 6 guns from him in the past 2 years.
 
Ahhh well I think the news article cleared things up a little and I think the fellow that wrote you the nasty-gram might have been a bit more pleasant with the added details.

"Obviously, I am for concealed carry. I own a gun store," Nugent said. "But I like to keep out of the political arena."
Click to expand...
Hmmm seems like you can't have one without the other.
 
Lets be honest/fair to everyone. The PTB can make life misserable for gun store owner.
Sorry to hear it had to be canceled.
 
These two "journalists" are now on my list.

I told them the truth, every bit. It was an event that was planned but, because Jim Fendry faxed me his copy of the statutes, I decided it was far too risky for even a few thousand dollars.

It was an event that was cancelled because Jim Fendry, I and others decided that the law is too unclear. There was no way I was going to have people show up for an afternoon of fun, only to be arrested by Doyle's goons.

Notice their description of Fendry. The man has given over 25 years of his life to the pro-gun cause.

Notice, too, that they said I declined to say what I do for a living. I damned well told them what I do, and asked them as gentlemen to not put that in their column. Probably 80% of my clients are anti-gun, and I've already been blackballed by some because they found out I was an NRA member and gun-rights supporter.

They agreed to not disclose my occupation. Well, technically they didn't. They made it sound like I was some Mafia-connected wiseguy.

As for Kevin Nugent, before you pass judgement, please email or PM me. They hung him out to dry as well.

While I don't believe in kharma, I do believe that a person's actions eventually come back to haunt them.

These two bastards can burn in Hell.
 
If you guys backed down because of fear of being arrested, you made a huge mistake, and here is why.

1) If they come onto private property, and violate your rights, you have yourself some serious lawsuit cash coming in.

2) It would have been yet another nail in Doyle's coffin. Think about it, word gets out that Doyle had a bunch of gun guys arrested because they shot guns on private property. Doyle does not care about your rights. On top of being mildly unpopular, being a man who uses the government in such a manner is not likely to help him.

If you guys cancelled the event because the gun shop chickened out, then obviously, you guys are not at fault.

Tell the whole story on here, you know we are totally on your side. I for one want to know what happened.
 
As much as I was looking forward to the shoot I ( Unfortunetly ) understand where Monkeyleg is coming from.

A club I belong to in another state had the same idea for gund raising. Had to cancel at the last minute when they found out the that a few of the state police were going to run a sting where they had found a felon that was going the shoot, would rent subgun and then police would come in and arrest felon ( charges against the felon would be dropped later, I never understood that part :confused: ) the owner of the guns and orginizers of the shoot.

Would it be legal to do that ? Beats the heck out of me but when risking property worth $10,000+, possible felony conviction and certainly monsterous lawyer bills who wants to take a chance.

Do not forget our opponents are at best "true belivers" whoknow that what they are doing is right and so anything they do to support that goal is right OR they are politicians who use this issue for their own purposes. 'nuff said.

NukemJim

PS Monkeyleg sorry it did not work out. Please post if you come up with other fundraisers NukemJim
 
Well I am glad i live in Georgia ! We have a small machine gun shoot about 4 times a year on private property .We have about 30-40 people .Our next one is March 11th. We usually call the Sheriff and let them know. Sometimes they come by and particapate.The last one we had we didn't call and they came by because they had a few calls about a lot of gunfire.They said carry on no problem. One time it got publicized we had to turn people away and throw some out for unsafe gun handling. So having one made public opens up a can of worms IMHO.
 
"Obviously, I am for concealed carry. I own a gun store," Nugent said. "But I like to keep out of the political arena."
Click to expand...
This a$$##le wants to be the Switzerland of gun stores. He claims want freedom, but seems to want to avoid any battles obtaining it might involve. Does this mean he doesn't even vote because it's politics?

You are either on the bus, or you're not. Which is it?
 
Spoken by Monkeyleg in his letter to "lost supporter"
However, you have no idea how close this came to having Governor Doyle or Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager order all the people at the shoot arrested.
Click to expand...

As an outsider looking in, but as an NFA weapon owner, I have to ask if you have any lawyer type folks in your group at all, or any legal knowledge about firearms anywhere?

There is clearly no law broken in allowing folks to shoot NFA weapons as long as the weapon is still under the immediate care of the owner.
It's done all the time. I couldn't find anything in WI statutes banning this either.

I am afraid I have to agree with your lost supporter there that you've backed down from something purely based on fear. That will make it difficult to continue your fight from this point on. They now know all they have to do is make a few empty threats and you'll cave in.

You guys in WI have a tough fight, I wish you all well.
 
TexasSIGman I agree that we'd have been perfectly square with the NFA. If there was a "raid", unfortunately the wording on Wisconsin MG "posession" law is nebulous enough that they could have arrested everyone and at least made it to an arraignment. Would those people have won in court in the end, probably. However those who think being a martyr would be worth it, it's glib to say that since we would have been in the right, even if arrested, everything would have been "fine" in the end.

Dick knows we have jobs, mortages, bills, spouses and children. Even if we beat the "MG posession rap", being arrested, booked, making bail, and thousands of dollars in legal fees is categoricaly NOT "fine" for most people. And that's just those who could afford to fight things all the way through court. How many of them would have to take plea bargains, or risk going broke?

Spivak & Bice's colum is frankly not much of a concern. It comes as far away from the 2006 fall elections as you can get, and even further from the next re-introduction of the PPA to the legislature. Besides, a snake is a snake. As repugnant as I find them, Spivak & Bice certainly don't pretend to be something they're not. Their approach to the shoot was hardly "friendly interest" to only stab us in the back later. It's my impression they came on hard and heavy from the get-go.

If anything the tone of their article is petulant. I think it's pretty transparent that they're dissapointed the shoot didn't go forward to give them even more fodder. Canceling the shoot was the right thing to do. You never give your enemy what they want, even if it's something you thnk you want too.

This is what concerns me:

"Obviously, I am for concealed carry. I own a gun store," Nugent said. "But I like to keep out of the political arena."
Click to expand...

Is that really the Shooter's Shop position, and they just throw us to the wolves the minute they get some publicity? If what Spivak and Bice wrote is true, someone needs to tell Mr. Nugent he can't have it both ways. Support for getting CCW in WI is opposing Gov. Doyle. Opposition to Govenor Doyle is support for CCW. 1+3=4 And guess what? 3+1=4 too...

When he was the AG of WI Jim Doyle also wrote and submitted a bill that would have banned everything in the Shooter's Shop inventory except for the flashlights, pocket knives, and any single-shot firearms. Does he seriously believe he's going to "alienate" his hard-core Democrat customer base?

I find that laughable. Should that hard-core gun-owning Democrat customer even exist, he's probably a Democrat because he's union. Where's he going to go buy a gun instead, Wal-Mart? Please.

Right now I'm still giving Mr. Nugent and the Shooter's Shop the benifit of the doubt. And I'm doing so because the mainstream press has had my credibilty meter pegged at 0.0 for decades. I've had some minor interactions with the media where they've completely misrepresented the facts, and that was just for minor "community interest" pieces with zero controversy or political baggage.

I can only imagine what they'll do when they've got an agenda. So the Shooter's Shop has a pass, and my business, for now, but I am watching.
 
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