WI: March 12th submachine gun shoot CANCELLED

[cracked butt]

Its too bad it got cancelled, but I can understand the reasoning. I can also understand the position of the owner of the Shooter Shop, they reside in a very anti-gun county yet have some of the coolest gun-toys available in their inventory. I don't think it would be good for them to draw any negative attention to themselves.

 

[TexasRifleman]

TexasSIGman I agree that we'd have been perfectly square with the NFA. If there was a "raid", unfortunately the wording on Wisconsin MG "posession" law is nebulous enough that they could have arrested everyone and at least made it to an arraignment. Would those people have won in court in the end, probably. However those who think being a martyr would be worth it, it's glib to say that since we would have been in the right, even if arrested, everything would have been "fine" in the end.

AJ and others. If this is truly how your state government is run, then you're fighting a losing battle there for CCW. Maybe change tactics and go for impeaching the entire lot of them.

The abuses you describe above as sort of "business as usual" are the kind of thing that governments topple over.

I wish you all the best of luck there in WI. Sounds like you have your hands full.

 

[KIDGLOCK]

Sad sad sad. They buckled wimped out . If I lived There I would have paid my money to go and shoot . Then if arrested lawyerd up. THEN sued the crap out of the cops and there bosses . There is no law that says you cant let sombody else shoot your MG. You cant loan it out and let your wife,brother, best friend, etc. go shoot it with out beinging there. Stand and fight people!!!!!

 

[AJ Dual]

AJ and others. If this is truly how your state government is run, then you're fighting a losing battle there for CCW. Maybe change tactics and go for impeaching the entire lot of them.

The abuses you describe above as sort of "business as usual" are the kind of thing that governments topple over.

AFAIK, it's not "business as usual". No one's played hardball with us as a group that badly, yet. However, there has been some quasi-legal harrasment of certain individuals over CCW advocacy already. So we're not entirely without precident.

If you rate the various states CCW battles on a "down n' dirty scale" with Missouri's pegged at a "10", I'd say WI's been about a 7.5, IMO. The last three legislative cycles the PPA (our CCW bill, Personal Protection Act) have been an equvalent of a 99 yard drive in football, only to fail in the with the goal line in reach every time. And the last two times it's been treason by a previous "supporter" in the legislature.

I agree that the odds of a paddy wagon pulling up to the shoot are slim, but no one wants to be a test case. The WCCA gets "help" from the NRA in the form of thier staffers and professional lobbyists working on the PPA bill, but we're a completely independant grass-roots, unpaid organization. Everyone's got jobs, bills, families etc.

Even if the legal concerns prove to be over the top, it's clear we were getting set up for a first rate mugging in the mainstream urban press. Everyone's got to remember that while a MG shoot for "gun people" is akin to car enthusiasts getting a chance to drive a lap at Daytona in a stock car for only $40, and thus makes perfect sense as a fund-raiser, to the fence-sitting "sheeple" and the deer rifle & shotgun hunter-only types it's going to look weird at best, and bloodthirsty at worst.

The fence-sitters are the fence-sitters as always, and the state's hunters have been a long term source of dissapointment for us, we've never been able to count on the majority of them. However, we ABSOLUTELY DO NOT need them working against us.

And KIDGLOCK, the Wisconsin MG laws are UNCLEAR. "Posession" has been worded vaugely enough that holding and using an MG that's not yours could be used to at least get people arrested and arraigned. The intent of the law was indeed probably to define "posession" in the federal sense of the NFA, but there's enough wiggle room for a motivated anti to drag us through the courts for a long time before we finaly prevail. And again, it wouldn't be the WCCA on trial, it would be each and every one of us individualy. "Innocent" people don't recoup thier legal fees from the sate either.

It's great you're willing to "lawyer up" and fight, but such suits can literaly take decades, assuming you don't run up against anti judges who are willing to deny your case cert or standing. In the meantime, bank accounts will be drained, jobs lost, and lives could be ruined. Saying that wrongful arrest and malicious prosecution is one of the more difficult uphill battles there are, is somewhat of an understatment.

We don't know how low our enemies would go legaly, and the press started this fight in the basment. We stepped into a minefield, and fortunately only one (the Milwauke Journal Sentinel article) went off, giving us enough warning to back off and regroup.

 

[Old Fuff]

I feel for Monkeyleg... No matter what he does in his thankless (unpaid) job somebody will say he's wrong, and often they don't know zip about what's really going on.

Concerning Wisconsin's hunters - they didn't even wake up or get upset when Teddy K. proposed to outlaw .30-30 ammunition. Expecting them to see anything positive coming out of a machine-gun shoot is pretty foolish to say the least.

Wisconsin's state government is largely controled by far-left Democrats, who will fight tooth & nail against any CCW proposal on general principals. To them this is giving in to the hated NRA and other pro-gun organizations that have so often frustrated they're plans for a more Socialist America. Fighting dirty is a way of life for them. Look at Chicago for a good example, and for the record the news media isn't any better. Birds of a feather, and all that...

So perhaps it might be more constructive to give Monkeyleg the benefit of doubt, and presume that he might have insights and knowledge about what is going on - or might have gone on - then we do. Trying to get pro-gun legislation passed was hard enough too do in what is considered a conservative state like Arizona. Doing it it a Liberal People's Republic like Wisconsin is much harder, but standing together might make it a bit easier.

 

[sofltodd]

It seems to me that all is not lost. Although I agree that backing down from pressure about the event was not a brave move it may have been the best move if all reasons cited are accurate. That's neither here nor there.

There is a way to make the event still happen which should have probably been done to begin with.

#1 Get a letter from the ATF branch regarding allowing non owners to shoot the firearms in question.
#2 Get a letter from the Attorney General for the state asking for an opinion on the legality of the event.

If both agree that what you are doing is legal and you and your supporters can have safe fun then It'd be one stupid SOB to try and break up the event.

You already have media and for better or for worse it will follow the event around so why not turn it into a winning situation and get the letters from the powers that be and then hold a fun event with good people having a great time.

Perhaps I'm an optimist but it should be that simple.

- Todd

 

[KIDGLOCK]

AJ, would the state law prevail over FED law?? At the time I can see local LO getting all worked up ,BUT if it were to be brought to court how do you think it would go??? It will cost every one involved but is it worth the fight ....April 19 1775 was worth the fight . sounds like you folks need to clean house at the local level so vote out the scum and run for office !!!!!!
Good Luck Watch your Six!!!

 

[johnnymenudo]

I am actually kind of relieved that you cancelled it to be honest. The liberal media would have spun this into some kind of "look at the gun nuts that want CCW" situation. I personally bristled a bit at the concept of using a machinegun shoot to raise money for the cause of CCW. In the eyes of our opponents, a machine gun shoot is a "crazy, gun-nut" event, and we don't need that right now. Anything that we do as a group is being scrutinized, and all we need is someone rolling film or taking pictures of the crazy people that want to carry concealed weapons.

An alternative proposal to raise money for CCW is a beginners shooting course for a very reasonable fee to expose people to CCW and firearms in the manner that we intend to use them. The logistics of such a proposal may make it impractical, but it is something to consider.

Am I a wimp or a sell-out for feeling this way? I suppose some might say that. I believe in winning the war, and I don't think the downside is worth the few seconds of fun to fire a machine gun. I have fired machine guns in the past. It really isn't worth all the negative scrutiny.

JM

 

[Monkeyleg]

AJ Dual pretty much gave the reply that I was going to make to those who questioned why we didn't charge forward and say the law is on our side.

There's federal law, and there's state law. And state law is applied by Doyle's attorney general.

This was supposed to be a fun event, not a protest where everyone goes to jail and then has to spend $10 on an attorney. Nowhere in the original announcement of the event did it say, "Come spend $40 to shoot subguns, get arrested, and help us challenge Wisconsin's machine gun laws."

I did consult with a firearms attorney, and he was sufficiently concerned about how--right or wrong--Doyle would be able to act.

By the way, I apologize for my language in previous posts. I was obviously very angry at Spivak and Bice, and also about having to cancel the event.

 

[Dolomite]

A couple of examples of how Wisconsin isn’t Texas, or Tennessee, or Arizona:

My friends, a few years back - there is this one private range in a different part of the state that a local District Attorney had threatened to swoop in on and enforce WI Statute 941.23. She did this after she found out that the club was planning to host regular shooting events called “IDPA Matches”. WI 941.23 is the state’s Jim Crow-era CCW prohibition, and violating it is a Class A misdemeanor. The third Wisconsin State IDPA Championship was shot there at this range in the summer of 2003. There were over 150 competitors and spectators from a half-dozen different states. Unfortunately, not even one of the stages was shot from concealment out of fear law enforcement involvement.

56-year-old Munir Hamdan was arrested in 1999 for CCW inside his Milwaukee convenience store. Hamdan kept a .32 ACP for the purpose of self-defense of himself and his family. A victim of numerous armed robberies, he had in the past, used the pistol to shoot and kill a robber that had just dropped the hammer of a malfunctioning gun pointed at his brother’s head. While no charges were filed in that obvious case of self-defense, years later – MPD officers asked Hamdan during a routine inspection if he still had the gun. He did. The officers reported this and the Milwaukee DA ordered law enforcement officers to go and arrest Munir Hamdan. The case went to the State Supreme Court – and when it was all said and done; Hamdan got off, and now thanks to that groundbreaking case, regular working stiffs like me may carry concealed within our homes without fear of being charged with WI Statute 941.23.

Next up is 64-year-old Arkansan V.O. Goins. Mr. Goins stopped for directions at the wrong gas station in Milwaukee last April. Instead of getting directions, five men decided they were going to attack him, so they started beating him with his own cane. Goins was able to drag himself to his passenger compartment and retrieve an illegally concealed revolver from under the seat. To stop the gang’s attack, he used the revolver to end the life of 20-year-old Kendall Moss. Goins was of course put into cuffs and dropped in to the system by law enforcement. Being put into the system in Milwaukee means you’ll be sitting in lock up with the bottom scrapings of the barrel for a minimum of a day and a half before you even get to see a judge remotely via a closed circuit TV system. No bail, no visitors, no rights for a day and a half – that’s what you get here for defending yourself.

The above examples of how the current CCW law is being enforced – now... do I honestly believe that the good people of Milwaukee would turn on their TVs the morning after the machine gun shoot only to see images of police dragging handcuffed children and senior citizens out of the front door of Shooter’s?

Yes and with all of my heart. If Diamond Jim Doyle and Peg Goldschalger had their way – that is exactly what would have happened.

 

[Dolomite]

"Come spend $40 to shoot subguns, get arrested, and help us challenge Wisconsin's machine gun laws.”

Hold on a dang minute. That’s got wheels! Print ‘em up!

I’m serious! There’s no such thing as bad advertising: When the Journal-Sentinel printed up a series of multiple-part articles condemning Badger Guns as the biggest national volcano of Saturday-night-special crime scene throw downs – well, that was it for poor old Badger Guns, ‘Conventional Wisdom’ dictated that they’d be out of business within a month.

But that didn’t happen, no sir – “Badger Outdoors” is still going strong (it’s still a rip off, and the guys behind the counter perpetuate every negative “the guy behind the counter at the gun store says” stereotype known, but) - it doesn’t look like they’re going anywhere soon.

There is a way to spin this positively and come out smelling like roses. I’m sure the boys down at Shooter’s have got to be spitting pure turpentine right now if they were as misrepresented in the article as Dick was.

Remember, in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the glue that cements self-actualization onto esteem at the top of the pyramid is pure cold revenge!

 

[44Brent]

Why not an open carry "March of Dimes" instead?

Dick,

If you want to get some positive publicity in a way that doesn't get people thrown in jail, start doing open carry marches. Do it like the March of Dimes and raise some money that way.

Make a bunch of money for the campaigns, AND show people that it IS legal to open carry in Wisconsin RIGHT NOW. Start in some towns that are not anti-gun, and then move to the state capitol.

 

[AJ Dual]

Combining open carry walks and fund-raising might not be a bad idea.

But perhaps this is even better?

HOW ABOUT EVERYBODY JUST SEND THE WCCM A CHECK?

Gee. I should have thought of it sooner.

(44Brent, my sarcasam isn't directed at you. Your idea might have some merit...)

 

[StopTheGrays]

If you want to get some positive publicity in a way that doesn't get people thrown in jail, start doing open carry marches. Do it like the March of Dimes and raise some money that way.

People walking around armed asking for donations? I dunno, seems a bit too easy paint it as something "disorderly" by the po-po or D.A.s...but it is better than anything I can come up with.

 

[AJ Dual]

I would think it's more of a "pledge" system. Where you approach people to pledge $.10/mile in advance.

Then you walk 10 miles etc. during the "walk". So you go back and tell them they donated a dollar.

You could hit up people you knew were pro-RKBA, but didn't have the opporutnity or willingness to march themselves.

I'm not sure that combining a funding drive and the open-carry political demonstration is the best idea, but it's at least an idea.

Unfortunately, IIRC, raffles for PAC's are nearly impossible. They can only be done to fund charity and private clubs, I think. If it were possible, the money would have to go to the WCCA (Legislation and grass-roots lobbying), and not the WCCM (the PAC to help un-elect our enemies...)

Benifit dinners to schmooze and hear a speech by well known pro-gunners are fun, Massad Ayoob did a great one for the WCCA a few years ago. Unfortunately, Dick tells me that the cost-to-benifit ratio is rather low. Weeks and weeks of work to raise just a few grand, that an MG shoot could have raised in a day.

I'm still trying to stew something up that's easy, innovative, fun, profitable, and legal.

Since MG's are too sensitive right now, we need somethng else. I've recieved a "season of trapshooting" from my in-laws for Christmas. I'm thinking of trying to hit up the club to see if we can run picnic/trapshooting clinic. It's still rather fun, and it's more PC. No clue if the club will be receptive or not...

Another fun thing was a "running deer" AR match. I've done this a few times at the Daniel Boone range out by Holy Hill. It's a match where AR's or other semi's are used, essentialy "run what you brung" red-dots and optics are permissable, and you have a 30 round mag (on semi) to try and pick off five steel chicken sillouettes, then plunk as many rounds as you can into a motorized deer cutout on a track. The Deer has a 8" paper plate as the vital area, and a 4" paper plate on the head. You've got the time it takes the deer to make it twice along the track to hit the chickens, and put as many in the deer as you can.

It's loads of fun, and people using high-cap semi-auto rifles are more prone to be CCW friendly than the bolt-action only hunter crowd.

 

[Monkeyleg]

The idea of open carry marches has been discussed with some of the core volunteers. Frankly, it fell through the cracks.

I'm not giving up on the idea of a subgun shoot. Sheriff Dan Trawicki of Waukesha is very much pro-gun, pro-CCW. He also showed up at Doyle's veto press conference in 2004 and talked to the press about why Doyle was wrong.

If he's willing to sign a letter stating that the customers of XYZ gun range (one in his county) are hereby authorized to temporarily possess and use submachine guns owned by Joe Blow on such-and-such a date, then I'm sure we'd be home free and clear.

Will he do it? Don't know. But it would sure put this issue back in Doyle's face. (A face that makes me cringe).

Once again, I'd have to get a solid legal opinion, but my reading of the state statute says that the CLEO has the ultimate say as to who is authorized to possess, transport, use, buy, sell and modify fully-automatic weapons.

 

[Monkeyleg]

AJ Dual, I think you just volunteered yourself.

Please let me know more about the running deer matches and any contacts you know at Daniel Boone.

And AJ is right: there doesn't have to be an event for someone to contribute. Governor Doyle is sitting on some $11 million right now. If gun owners in Wisconsin want him out of office, they're going to have to open their wallets.

I still find it ironic that there's such a backlash against an event that was cancelled because the organizers decided it might not be legal to let someone shoot a subgun for a $40 donation. Yet Doyle's campaign cronies can sit down with the heads of the road building companies, the various folks involved with casinos, the folks from energy companies and others, and get checks for $10,000 from each of them.

In British parlance, Spivak and Bice "broke a butterfly on a wheel."

 

[Strings]

There IS a way around the problem: I'll be doing the first step either tonight or tomorrow. I'll keep you posted, Dick!

Oh...

>AJ, would the state law prevail over FED law??<

At the state level, state law prevails. While state law can't remove federal restrictions, it CAN add to them...

>It will cost every one involved but is it worth the fight ....April 19 1775 was worth the fight . sounds like you folks need to clean house at the local level so vote out the scum and run for office !!!!!!<

Unfortunately, many of us have responsibilities that we must meet. Maybe you don't, in which case I'm glad for you. But until you put your money where your mouth is (ie: become a test case), you REALLY shouldn't be babbling...