WI: strategy and brainstorming meeting

[Monkeyleg]

Dear fellow gun owner:

With Governor Doyle having been re-elected, and the state Senate now controlled by Majority Leader Senator Judy Robson (D-Beloit), we need to do things differently than we have in the past.

To that end, we've scheduled a meeting for Saturday, January 27th in Oshkosh.

All ideas will be open for discussion, from open carry to anything else you might have in mind.

It would be a waste of our past efforts if we just sat on our hands for the next two to four years. Instead, we need to implement fresh, bold ideas if we are to succeed.

I know there are anti-gunners on our email alert list, so it's safe to assume that one or more of them may attend this meeting just to spy. So, any sensitive subjects will not be discussed in depth. Beyond that, though, your input is very much needed.

Here are the details:

Date: Saturday, January 27, 2007

Meeting time: from 10 am until we're finished.

Place: HJ's hotel/motel, which is located just off Highway 41 in Oshkosh. Take the Highway 21 exit (exit #119), and the hotel is right there. The meeting room is upstairs.

We'll have seating for fifty people, although the room will hold more than that. Please RSVP if you plan on attending so we can order more chairs if need be.

Thanks,
Dick Baker
Treasurer, WCCA

 

[AJ Dual]

I'm "definitely" going to be there... conditional on finding baby sitters.

Unfortunately my wife's work schedule is posted up to a month in advance, and my parents are out of town, so it now rests on the availibility of the maternal grandarents.

Sheesh, almost a month's notice, and it's not enough for some people.

Oh, wait, that's me I'm talking about.

I'll send an e-mail as my official RSVP.

 

[Trip20]

You've got mail - count me in.

 

[cosine]

I won't be able to go, but I want to let you know that you have support from this 18 year old. (who can't even buy a handgun from a commercial dealer. )

 

[AJ Dual]

Cosine, check your PM's. If it's for lack of a ride, I can provide a lift.

I just recived word from my in-laws I have sitters. God bless 'em.

 

[Gray Peterson]

I *might* be there. It's condition on having enough money for the ticket, housing, and rental car.

 

[jenniferjane]

I'll be there as will a friend. We're coming from just north of Milwaukee and may be able to offer transportation. My car is small but we'd have room for two more people I'm sure.

-Jen

 

[MGLouie]

I'm in, email sent

Might have a friend along.

 

[Monkeyleg]

For those of you who are planning to attend: please bring with you some fresh ideas, and an open mind.

As I've said over and over and over again, I am not the "king" of the WCCA.

That said, I'm also not the only person who can organize events, or put other actions into motion.

So, be prepared to offer up your ideas, and then be responsible for running with them.

We are now in our weakest position since 2002. That means that we need to try ideas that have heretofore been untested.

I've taken a lot of criticism because I've put my focus this year on raising funds for pro-gun candidates, from Mark Green on down to assembly candidate Paul Tittl. Bad idea? Not if we'd won.

There's another race out there looming that could have a major impact on our fight: the race to replace retiring WI state supreme court Justice Jon Wilcox.

Thanks to Doyle's appointment of Louis Butler to the state supreme court, we've gone from a 4:3 conservative majority on the court to a 4:3 liberal majority.

In past years, judicial races haven't drawn much attention, or much in the way of dollars.

That's all changed. I'm certain that the SC race this April will be the most expensive judicial race in WI history.

Also, Louis Butler will come up for a real election in April of 2008. Want to bet that Doyle won't be drumming up cash for Butler?

We have a chance to bring the court back to its previous conservative balance. In 2008, we have a chance to overwhelm the liberals on the court, and perhaps get more favorable rulings on concealed and open carry challenges.

Money isn't a dirty subject. If we want a court that will rule in our favor, we'd better start preparing now.

I don't get my kicks from recording PAC contributions. It's boring, time-consuming, and usually frustrating.

But I'll repeat my mantra once again: 95% of the time, the candidate with the most money wins (Doyle had a $3.8 million lead over Green, a 3:2 margin); the candidate who starts raising funds early, and who keeps that financial lead, wins (think Doyle, again).

I hope that people at the meeting will not take the money issue as some sort of "dirty politics." If they do, they'll be guaranteeing our defeat in April of this year, and in November of 2008.

 

[Strings]

I'll be there, yer majesty... Spoon might be tagging along too (depending on work schedule)

One point I am going to make now (and will make often, until we win or one of y'all shoots me): get the women involved in whatever we're doing! It's something I noticed many times at the gunshow tables: have a lady or two behind the table, and you get a MUCH bigger response from show attendees.

Wives, girlfriends, sisters... get 'em involved!

 

[Trip20]

For those of you who are planning to attend: please bring with you some fresh ideas, and an open mind.

I'll be there; mind wide open. But I'm definitely lacking in the "fresh ideas" department.

I keep coming back to this: Lets try everything we haven't tried in the past, and lets take off the gloves. I'm pissed, I don't care anymore, and moving to another state is no longer an idle threat to placate my machizmo.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Trip20, I really don't know if there are any "fresh" ideas. I hope so, but maybe not.

Maybe there will be "old" ideas put forth by people who have finally reached the point where they're ready to put in the time and effort to put meat on those ideas.

I don't know. One veteran RKBA fighter says we have no chance of doing anything. Another says we have a chance of pushing open carry. One RKBA attorney says that open carry will be a disaster. Another RKBA attorney says it's the right time.

Who do you listen to? And who's right?

From everyone I've talked to, it seems that somebody is going to have to be arrested.

Maybe I'm not talking to the right people, but I think I am.

We have the state RKBA amendment on our side. We have the majority opinion (written by Chief Justice Shirley Abrahamson on our side). We have the opinion given by the deputy attorney general (under then-AG Jim Doyle) in the Hamdan case stating that it is the opinion of the government that open carry is legal. We have Governor Jim Doyle himself stating in public that open carry is legal.

What's the roadblock? Those pesky municipal codes that enable the police to arrest anyone carrying a firearm openly to be charged with Disorderly Conduct or Disturbing the Peace.

We have the right to carry, under the state's RKBA amendment, under Hamdan, and under other court decisions.

But it's those chicken**** DP and DO charges that keep anyone from trying the system.

Maybe that's what will come from this meeting. Maybe somebody will come forth to be the test case. Or maybe there will be enough people there fed up with the status quo that they're willing to raise a defense fund for the "guinea pig."

Anybody who saw a press clip of Doyle patting his hip and saying that we can carry openly knows he was throwing down a gauntlet: "try me."

Through his deputy AG's, through the Hamdan decision, and through the supreme court's interpretation of our state's RKBA amendment, Doyle knows he's in the wrong.

What he's counting on is for the local PD to arrest on non-firearms charges.

I hope we can make that bastard rue the day he decided to taunt us.

 

[Monkeyleg]

This afternoon, I had a nice conversation with a fellow THR member and RKBA activist from another state (he can chime in here if he wants his name to be known).

Here in WI, when it comes to getting a good shall-issue law passed, we are screwed for the next two to four years. Probably more like four years, since I doubt the Republicans can gain enough Senate and Assembly seats to reach the two-thirds threshhold for a veto override in 2008.

When I look in the anti's mojo box, I see a lot of bones. When I look in ours, I see just a couple.

But that couple of bones may be enough to advance our cause.

Open carry is not explicitly legal in Wisconsin. Nor is it explicitly illegal. Talk to an attorney. There's a difference.

However, with the Hamdan decision, and other court cases, we have enough precedent to gather our LEO friends where we can find them, and get them to back us up on open carry.

Maybe we'll have to start in a small town like Elroy, whose police chief is solidly on our side. Or maybe it's another small town.

Get enough of those chiefs to issue memo's to their officers that people carrying openly are not to be subject to DC or DP charges, and we may be on a roll.

That's what this meeting is for.

The past is the past. Nobody--not the NRA, not Zien, not Gunderson, not the WCCA, or anyone else--ever really knew if we were going to win or lose. We just did the best we could.

And now the fight will be much harder.

That's why I'm hoping that there will be people coming out of this meeting who are willing to take a few hours to sit down with their police chief or sheriff or DA and talk.

The days of some gray-haired old fart sending out emails asking for gun show volunteers, and those volunteers showing up to work hours on end handing out literature...those days are over.

I just hope that people will have the intiative, the will, and then the patience to accomplish our goal.

There are some great ideas out there. What we need now is for some great people to initiate them.

 

[Autolycus]

Well I can offer little more than support due to my poor finances. As a college student I am broke when it comes to finances but I am willing to help in other ways if possible. If you need someone to write essays, critiques, and editorials I am willing to give it a try.

I would also like to suggest open carry marches. I think this is the most powerful tool you have. Monkeyleg, I dont know where Elroy Wisconsin is but I might want to offer my advice (remember I am a knowitall college student though) but I think that an open carry march in a larger city such as Madison or Milwaukee may be a better way to attract attention.

I am assuming Elroy is similar to the small towns that dot the areas outside of North Eastern Illinois. The local paper may have a story but the facts are that people in those areas will probably be ok with people carrying openly or concealed. I would suggest getting at least 100 people to carry openly in a major city. This way the police could try and arrest 100 armed people who were doing nothing but just marching down the street.

Organize it in a way and do not inform the papers, press, or city council. Just do it over message boards like this and through email.

The way I would do it would be get everyone to carry their guns in a case in a bagpack or in some other lawful manner. Then they go into the bathrooms and come out with a gun on their hip in the open carry. Then they just walk up and down the street. Or have everyone get out of their car with a gun in the open and just start walking together.

If enough people do it the papers will carry it. Imagine reading the local paper and they say Madison police responded to a call of a large group of armed people. At least 100 in number who were standing on a corner. The antis will wet themselves and people will be outraged once they find it is legal (in my experience a lot of people, especially urban ones, do not know that open carry is legal in the majority of states) and they will demand that something be done. Then when the CCW bill comes back up in legislature they will be dying to pass it because people will be pressuring them to do it.

Anyways once again I wish you luck and want to offer my services if possible. I understand your pain in desiring to CCW as I am southern neighbor of yours. We dont have open carry and carrying is a felony here where once it was a misdeameanor. I suspect that here in IL if it was still a misdemeanor there would be a lot of people carrying. I met a man who used to but once it was turned into a felony he did not because he doesnt want to risk a felony charge.

Anyways I hope that soon IL will have a CCW law passed.

Cheers.

Tecumseh

 

[AJ Dual]

Here in WI, when it comes to getting a good shall-issue law passed, we are screwed for the next two to four years. Probably more like four years, since I doubt the Republicans can gain enough Senate and Assembly seats to reach the two-thirds threshhold for a veto override in 2008.

(snip)

I just hope that people will have the intiative, the will, and then the patience to accomplish our goal.

Personaly, I think whatever strategy or tactics we employ, open carry walks, judicial elections, etc. is a secondary issue. Whatever we decide to do is moot if there's no one around in four years to implement them.

- It's at least two, and more likely four years before we can take another serious run at passing the PPA, much less even seeing it leave comittie.

- Even with a stacked WI Supreme Court, a carry decision that sets the legislature scrambling to pass a CCW system could take just as long, even if the "ideal case" happened tomorrow, (and under a DA dumb enough to send it up) with all the appeals it would take years to get there. And with the current legislature, it's quite possible we'd wind up with a "may issue" system that's worse than the equitable nothing we have now.

Frankly, I'd rather WI stay an absolute no-carry state, than be a "may issue" one like New Jersy, where it's really no-carry except for the wealthy and influential.

To fight a war, you need an army. And that army has to be there when it's time for the battle.

To build a house, you first need a foundation.

I believe that what will be key above all else is driving membership and retaining it, so that we have the bodies when we need them, for whatever we may need them.

Without that, everything else, however inspired, falls apart.

So besides strategy and tactics, I'd like to see some serious discussion about organization, and above that, creating some kind of structure where WI CCW supporters can meet on a regular basis to keep people face-to-face so they're less likely to drift away over the coming years.

If we can accomplish that, whatever we decide to do on a strategic basis is that much more likely to succeed.

 

[Monkeyleg]

AJ, you have the luxury of youth. I'll be sixty when Doyle leaves office in 2011 (assuming he doesn't go for a third term).

I've considered the possibility that anything we do to force the anti's to want concealed carry may result in a may-issue bill. However, I think we still have enough friends in the Democrat party who would side with us and vote against may-issue bill.

There's also a possibility that pushing open carry could result in the anti's introducing a bill to ban open carry. Again, I think we have enough votes on both sides of the aisle to kill such a bill.

Let's hope the meeting is productive.

Please bring up your concerns at the meeting so that everyone can consider them.

 

[Gene_WI]

I will try to make this meeting. I have some ideas that I can present. Will there be any lawyers present?

I think that an angle we can use is open carry in a vehicle. And car carry in general.

After having a very unpleasant interaction with DNR and rural cops, I think open carry can be a recipe for disaster.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Gene, we're trying to get an attorney from MN to attend. He's one of the foremost experts on the Second Amendment and gun rights in the country.

 

[AJ Dual]

Dick, I think you read too much into:

Frankly, I'd rather WI stay an absolute no-carry state, than be a "may issue" one like New Jersy, where it's really no-carry except for the wealthy and influential.

It's just a statment of my desire to see shall-issue here in WI. It really dosen't go any deeper, and is not a comment on any potential tactics that are being bandied about. If someone presents a cogent strategy how may-issue could get us where we want to be, so be it. I'd support that.

I'll back any "good idea", end-run, hail-mary pass, or other strategey that gets us closer to CCW.

My main point is that whatever we do, we need people to do it.

Perhaps I've read too much into your posts over the years where you've decried the lack of involvment by many parts of the WI pro-gun community. While you're not the king of WI CCW, you've certainly had to do much more than your fair share. I'd hate to see whatever inspired ideas that come up fail for lack of participation. That's my main concern.

 

[Parruthead]

I'll try to be there.

 

[Monkeyleg]

AJ: "While you're not the king of WI CCW, you've certainly had to do much more than your fair share."

I'd be engaging in false modesty if I refuted that statement. There have been others who have put in much more time than I have. However, they've been paid to do so.

Our November 7th election losses were a huge kick in the stomach for me. I feel like the last 5+ years of my life were a total waste.

But I can't just lie down and roll over for Jim Doyle.

We have some interesting alternatives at our disposal. First we need to get some solid legal advice, though.

We're going to get shall-issue CCW here in WI. I have no doubt about that.

I just want it sooner, not later. I want Jim Doyle to moan and groan that his "peasants" have the same right to self-defense that he enjoys.

As I've been saying all along, this meeting is to bring forth fresh ideas. But I hope that people realize that, when they offer ideas, it's on their heads to implement those ideas.

Over the past 5+ years, there have been many volunteers who've put in countless hours, only to surrender. Some of those volunteers have just disappeared into the woodwork. Others have simply moved to a Free State.

That's not the way to win.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

I'm not in WI, but I'll add a few comments.

Thank you for keeping in the fight. It has been long and exhausting and it's far from over. To everyone outside of WI, what happens there has a nation-wide impact. Every new state that joins the winning side (shall-issue) gets us closer to nation-wide CCW.

I'm not there "on the ground" but from the way it sounds, it sounds like planned open carry is the only way forward. That might mean open carry marches. It might mean getting local LEOs in some areas to announce that open carry is NOT disturbing the peace, and then having people in those areas make a practice of daily open carry. It might mean someone doing a test case to prove in court that open carry is can NOT be charged as "disturbing the peace". Note that this test case thing isn't that bad. DtP is only a misdemeanor. You don't have to be a millionaire to win in that fight. You would want to retain a lawyer in advance and talk it over, and you would want to budget in the $10Ks for the fight, but you would win and could also win a wrongful arrest lawsuit perhaps. Also note that all this is planned in advance, with thought about the consequences, both legal, political, and personal. This isn't just people in WI deciding to strap up one day.

Hey if OC is defended in the courts, and the cops can't charge for it, then people WILL start open carrying, even in urban areas, and then the legislature will sober up and get themselves together and finally join the rest of the country with a shall-issue law.

 

[carebear]

Not in WI but definitely a supporter of Monkeyleg's work.

I do have a question. Is it really likely that open-carry marches will "scare" lawmakers into passing a CCW law? Isn't it just as likely for them to do something like pass a statewide restriction or allow local communities to explicitly ban OC?

Is there true security in even the State Constitution with the loss of the legislature, re-election of the Gov, and an unfavorable court balance?

If you lose public opinion as well, by creating a situation where you can be portrayed by the press as "extremists" (for walking around armed en masse) couldn't that give the shaky legislators a reason to jump ship?

I hate to sound like a negative Nelly but I think "First, do no harm" might be something to strongly consider.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

Oh I just looked at the open carry forum, and from reading that it is obvious that OC WILL happen in WI. This is a good thing.

As for whether it will "scare" the legislators into doing anything? It doesn't really matter. If OC can be established as legal, and not "disorderly conduct", then people who want to carry can open carry, and if the residents of WI don't like it then they need to pass the PPA.

I would assume that if OC of a pistol is legal in WI then so is OC of long-arms. If they don't want CCW then they can live with guys walking around Milwaukee with AR-15s I guess.

 

[Strings]

Carebear... we have a State pre-emption law on the books. They'd have to pass a state level prohibition... and that'd actually hurt them in their fight against CCW (since the goobernor has already made the comment that "we can already carry")...

I don't know if it will actually do any good, since I haven't paid that close of attention to the ratios in our legislature. It IS possible that, with many of us wandering around OC, the bliss-ninnies might rabbit to the PPA just to get guns out of their sight (this has been discussed)...