Wild Bill Hickok used a .36

[Mike Irwin]

Johnny,

I'm well aware of the state of medicine in the late 1800s. I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you off-line. It's one of my... fascinations.

As I said, the fact that someone might die 3 to 5 days LATER, from an infection contracted after being shot, does NOTHING for stopping power or the efficacy of a .36 Colt loaded with roundballs.

Show me an infection that acts more rapidly than systemic collapse due to blood loss.

There isn't one.

 

[MrMurphy]

I think I remember reading somewhere that silk shirts were preferred by those in duels (or officers in the armies of the time) say Napoleonic era, because if they were hit, apparently the silk material would be less likely to get driven into the wound and cause infection, or if it did, it was easier to remove.......something along those lines.


But I can't really see a cowboy in a silk shirt.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Mr. Murphy,

I think the entire point was that the silk would be driven into the wound, but because it was so strong, could be pulled back out with the ball often not having penetrated.

This was apparently a trick that the Mongols & Tartars used. They would wear a heavily woven silk shirt. When hit with an arrow, they'd still be perforated, but the wound wouldn't be nearly as bad.

 

[I'm3rd]

I have most of a box of Remington .38 sp loaded with 2- 70grain round lead balls that I bought at a gun show. The box is marked "for law enforcement use" and lists the velocity at 840 fps. I shot a few rounds in her gun at 10 yds and the two balls struck the paper about 2" apart and to point of aim. I have never used it in a carry gun or a house gun, but I always thought that two .357" diameter 70 grain lead balls striking the target at the same time would probably be a pretty decent self defense load for my wife's .38 Colt Police Positive Special. Kind of like old Wild Bill getting in two real quick shots with his Navies.

 

[Croyance]

As for reloading times, what about taking the Clint Eastwood/Pale Rider approach? I realize that the average person wouldn't be carrying around extra loaded cylinders, but somebody expecting trouble might. Any record of people doing this?
Part of wearing the silk shirt in duels was the belief that the wound was less likely to get infected. Maybe they were actually cleaned more, so infections were less common.
As for the Mongols, shirts of raw silk were worn. Normally, when an arrow wound was treated, the arrow was pushed through the wound. The other option was to pull it out, but because of the spinning of the arrow in flight, as well as any barbs, a chunk of flesh would be pulled out. A silk shirt might not be penetrated, though it would be forced into the wound cavity. With care, it was possible to pull/twist the arrow out the original wound channel, doing less total damage than the first two options.

 

[BluesBear]

I have read several accounts of extra cylinders being carried. I eve recall seeing photos of leather cylinder pouches.
In high school we studied a story written by a Pony Express rider that recounted an Indian attack during his ride. He mentioned 2 revolvers on his belt and 2 more in holsters on this saddle along with an extra loaded cylinder for each.
He was 15 at the time of the attack.

If you look closely at vintage cased Colt revolvers, in addition to the powder flask, capper, bullet mould and other goodies, you'll quite often see a compartment with an extra cylinder.

 

[schromf]

Spare cylinders were the speed loaders of the time, they were charged and capped and could "quickly ?" be changed. In reality that is why you see so many gun toters of that era carry 2+ guns, and a backup pocket pistol. Even changing cylinders is slow. I admit I haven't fired blackpowder pistols in years, but came close to buying another a few weeks ago ( didn't cause the indoor range I frequent won't let me shoot them ). But........

When I was shooting them accuracy varied from downright awful to suprisingly accurate. This varied by guns, loads, and balls. The wrong load in even a good revolver can give really crummy results. But with the right balls, and working with the powder charges in a good pistol these black powder guns can really astonish at how accurate they can be. It is a lot like working out good reloads. My guess is that Wild Bill being a professional had the loads for his guns tuned like a science, and him shooting every day only improved his skills and knowledge base.

I think then as now shot placement was the holy grail. I have several historical books on the era and I don't know how many gunfights were won by the first gunfighter firing too quickly and missing and the second using a slower aimed shot to ultimely win. I think that then as now there were a few men who were really top marksmen, with a lot of others with lesser abilities. Those with lesser abilities who challenged the few usually didn't live to repeat the mistake. I have read that John Wesley Hardin was one of the fastest and most cold blooded, and he was in town with Wild Bill with a warrant outstanding, and no attempt at arrest was made. Maybe it paid to know your limits.

 

[mini14jac]

An extra cylinder will only work as a speed loader for a Remington-style pistol, not the Colt guns that Wild Bill used.
It can be swapped out on a Colt-style gun, but it requires taking the barrel off.
With the Remington guns, you just drop a lever, lift out the empty, drop in the fresh, and you're ready to rock and roll.

 

[MrAcheson]

With the Remington guns, you just drop a lever, lift out the empty, drop in the fresh, and you're ready to rock and roll.

Only if you are carrying a capped cylinder. Capped cylinders are not exactly drop safe. Its not uncommon for the CAS shooters that go C&B to load multiple cylinders before a match, but they don't cap them until they get to the "loading" table. Its a safety issue.

I have several historical books on the era and I don't know how many gunfights were won by the first gunfighter firing too quickly and missing and the second using a slower aimed shot to ultimely win.

Wyatt Earp once said that winning a gunfight was a matter of "taking your time in a hurry." The truly scary men were both fast and accurate.

 

[TallPine]

Capped cylinders are not exactly drop safe.

Having somebody shooting at you is not exactly safe, either ...

 

[Nick96]

Limited experience with black powder - have only shot .44 & .45 caliber lead ball in revolvers & single shot pistols. Speed of reloading aside, I've found BP handguns to be very accurate at under about 25 yards - and recoil is very mild. The down side is the smoke given off. Especially the early Colt revolvers were natural pointers - so if you could focus and point your finger on a spot, you could probably hit it with minimal practice with one of them. So if one could retain their composure, and place the shot where they wanted it, I'd imagine that "one shot stops" were very likely - regardless of caliber.

 

[tex_n_cal]

I did at one time own a replica Colt Walker, and did load it up with the original 60+ grain powder charge. It was actually quite accurate - no problem putting 5 shots into 2-3 inches at 25 yards. That was true until the barrel leaded up, which took one cylinder, given that I was shooting pure lead at 1100+ fps

The Walker was fun, but the loading lever frequently dropped down after recoil, tying up the gun. I gave it to my brother as a gift, and he was so mortified by the thing he sold it immediately. Pity, it was pretty fun.

Ya know, they aren't cheap, but a LeMat replica holds what, nine .44 caliber rounds, plus a 20 gauge smoothbore central barrel? I think one of those ought to do just wonders in a pinch.

 

[Ryder]

Hickok said "When I draw my pistols, I have to be SURE"

That statement along with the accompanying reports of his legendary ability makes it sound like he knew how to make confidence work to his benefit. Cancelling out the possibility of a misfire through daily cleanings would enable one to concentrate better on hitting the target. Uncertainty is a distraction which detracts from accuracy.

If you can't be sure, be somewhere else!

 

[scotjute]

Colt cylinders can be swapped fairly quickly if one will sand/smooth down the wedge so that it can be pulled out with your hand. The down side of this is that wedge could fall out on its own. My impression from reading quite a few accounts from 1850 - 1870's was that most of the men opted for two pistols, and often a back-up or two. The Colt pocket pistols are fairly small and hence easy to carry.

 

[MrAcheson]

Hickok is most famously armed with two colt 1851 navies. However others have contended that he also used Remington New Models during his work in the cow towns. He also own a .32 caliber BUG which he carried on his person (S&W I think).

 

[Bart Noir]

Johnny Guest, I disagree about the swaging...

When I load my Navy, the ball tightly fits the chamber, so tightly a very thin ring of lead is usually shaved off. This may change the sherical shape but the compression of loading won't . The idea of swaging implies changing the shape, and since the ball can't get bigger in diameter (it's in a tight chamber) then it would have to get longer. When I use the rammer to push the ball into the powder, the ball is most certainly not getting longer! It does get a mark from the rammer, which is not good for accuracy in theory.

Bart Noir
So howz come I gets white smoke from that black powder?

 

[Mike Irwin]

Bart,

In my experience chambers for most period black powder pistols are slightly tapered to ensure that the ball makes a tight seal against the chamber walls to help prevent flashover.

This would indeed cause slight swaging of the ball and cause it to elongate very slightly.

 

[Old Fuff]

Yup, that's true with the original guns and most reproductions. It's also very common to find replicas have undersized chambers that swadge the ball smaller then the bore - which adversely effects accuracy. When assembling the original guns at the Colt factory workers would measure the bore and pick a matching sized cylinder - which is one reason the cylinders were numbered. They also matched the bullet mold that came with each gun.

 

[goste]

I must admit, that this is one of the most intresting thread's, I've read in a while.

I shoot alot of Blackpowder pistol's, and I do think most people would be suprised, at how accurate, and effective they are. Just heck, to clean .
.

 

[MrAcheson]

Just heck, to clean .

Depends on the gun. If you get an all-stainless gun, then you can literally take the grips off and put it though the dishwasher. Don't try this with blued though, you will get an orange mess.

 

[Gatofeo]

I have a Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy, a reproduction Remington .36 and a reproduction Colt 1862 Pocket Pistol in .36 caliber.
I've never shot anyone with any of them, and hope I never do.
However, I regularly shoot into a large cardboard box with alternating layers of 1/4-inch plywood and hard-packed newspaper.
The .380 diameter soft lead ball often flattens out to about the size of a dime, some flatten to the size of a nickel.
With 24 grs. of Goex FFFG muzzle velocity is about 1,000 feet per second. At that speed, that soft lead ball has a tendency to flatten.
Remember, we're talking about a very soft lead ball. And don't forget, that when it is rammed into the chamber it is no longer a sphere. Its shape is best described as half an orange placed on half a grapefruit, meat-to-meat. This creates a slight shoulder, the precursor of the later semi-wadcutter bullet design.
The late gun writer Elmer Keith (1898 - 1983) grew up around Civil War vets, in Montana. He started packing a Colt 1851 Navy in 1912, when he was 14.
In his book "Sixguns," Keith quotes one veteran as saying that the round ball from a .36 Navy took all the fight out of a man, whereas the conical bullet didn't (even though it was heavier).
I don't know if Hickock carried the lead ball or conical bullet in his Navy Colts. I suspect the ball, since he was quite familiar with their proper use.

I must respectfully take issue with the idea that infection killed most of the soldiers in the Civil War. Infection takes a while.
I believe that shock, loss of blood, pain and terror probably combined to take their toll.
Yes, opiates were available but they weren't available all the time. It would have been easy for a doctor to run out of them, given the masses of wounded. And remote areas such as Army forts and mining towns would have had a limited supply. Some of these places didn't even have doctors.
The lack of modern diagnostic equipment undoubtedly caused many deaths. The first X-Ray machine didn't come along until the end of the 19th century.
Often, to find the bullet, the surgeon inserted a long, thin rod into the bullet channel. This would often worsen the injury by pushing the bullet farther, or lacerating blood vessels. Add to this a patient writhing in agony and you can see where shock and bleeding would be quickly fatal.
Whenever someone laments that they were born too late, and tells me they want to live as the Cowboys, Mountain Men or Indians did ... I usually reply, "Go spend a winter in a tipi in North Dakota, with an abcessed tooth, then tell me how much you hate the 21st century."
Thank God for modern medicine and such!

 

[Old Fuff]

Clean the gun in the dishwasher .....

I did that ONCE when I was a teen .........

Then my mom cane home ......

You don't want to know the rest ......

 

[BluesBear]

Gatofeo made a good point.

Medicine was actually "practiced" dirung the Uncivil War, they were jusrt beginning to get close to getting it right. It wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is today.

To remove a bullet they had to probe for it. Now when Doc Adams (Milburn Stone) did it on Gunsmoke he just had to poke the probe in a few inched until he found it and then pull it straight out with a big pair of tweezers.

In real life the bullet often was deflected, just st happens today. When that happened they had to really "probe" to find it. That probing could really do more damage than the bullet had. I don't even want to imagine the process of removing such a bullet.

The wounds were often cauterized to seal them from infection and to stop external bleeding. The problem with that was it did nothing to prevent internal bleeding.

I remember studying the photos of Matthew Brady taken during the war. I vividly recall his photographs of the stacks of bodies of soldiers that had died while awaiting medical attention. It would still be nearly a century before Duke, Hawkeye and Trapper John showed up.

 

[MrAcheson]

I remember studying the photos of Matthew Brady taken during the war. I vividly recall his photographs of the stacks of bodies of soldiers that had died while awaiting medical attention. It would still be nearly a century before Duke, Hawkeye and Trapper John showed up.

Keep in mind that those Civil War doctors didn't really clean their instruments properly either. Lots of cross contamination was possible. It was real butchery.

 

[Mike Irwin]

During the Civil War, if a soldier survived being wounded and a resulting amputation, he had IIRC a roughly 70% chance of surviving.

Amputation survival rates went down DRAMATICALLY the closer to the heart the limb was taken off. Something like 95% of all foot amputees survived the process, but only something like 10 to 15% survived an amputation at the hip. The figures were somewhat better for arms, but the closer to the body the amputation got, the survival rate went down.

Doctors didn't clean their instruments well because the theory of microbal contamination wasn't known.

Joseph Lister was only just then formulating his theories on "hospital disease" (sepsis) that killed nearly half of his amputation patients between 1858 and 1865. And it wasn't until 1865 that Louis Pasteur theorized that living organisms caused infection.

Lister, hearing of Pasteur's theory, and finding out about carbolic acid being used to treat sewage, began using dilute carbolic acid to treat wounds and instruments. Almost overnight the incident of sepsis went to zero in his hospital.

The first war-time use of quasi-sterile surgical processes was during the Franco-German war. The Germans used Lister's processes, and the death rates due to infection dropped through the floor.