Wild Dogs

[Lupinus]

Free-roaming cats kill more wildlife than feral dogs, hunters or automobiles. A study done in England (and since repeated in other countries including the US) simply kept tract of the prey brought home by cats. They kill an enormous number of song birds and similar wildlife

I can understand your meaning, but what do cats kill? Mice? Squirrles? Some birds? They aren't killing blue ribbon winner Betsy the cow or the neighbors show horses. If you see one killing the rabbits in your hutch then hey by all means shoot the thing. Cats are better left erring on the side of caution that it is the neighbors pet, now if you talk to the neighbors and turns out hey not the neighbors kitty or it is one mangey looking definatly feral then hey free moving target practice. But better to go on the side it is thhe neighbors cat out for a walk.

where i live and hunt, there may be several miles in any given direction between houses. since we only have a couple of cats, any new cats that show up are strays (probably dumped by the good folks in town) and do not belong. feral cats are a nuisance, and are shot on sight.

Cats easily can cover several miles without a problem. I agree that it can be a difference where you live, if several miles means 25 thats one thing, if it means maybe five then not really. When you see a dog out on the prowl chances are high it is feral or at least a neglagent owner, cats even if the nearist house is five miles are a different story.

 

[danurve]

Once they get a foothold, they are bad news, worse than coyotes, because they just aren't afraid of people.

That is actually very true. I'm glad to see more people understand the problem. An encounter with wild dogs is one thing while hunting, and seeing the damage done. But a point of view, or facts from a farmer / rancher definatly puts things into perspective.

 

['Card]

In the Appalachian mountains where I grew up, and still go every year for most of my hunting, shooting wild dogs you encounter in the woods has been standard operating procedure since I was a boy - and I'm not as old as some of the guys on this forum, but I'm no pup either.

In fact, I can remember a period back in WV in the mid-70's when the feral dog population got so bad that the DNR actually posted a bounty for wild dogs. It wasn't much... seems like $5-per-dog you brought in, I think. I remember that people who had pet dogs were extremely careful about where Spot was roaming at night back in those days.

 

[Matt G]

Texas Health & Safety Code:

§ 822.011. Definitions

In this subchapter:

(1) "Dog or coyote" includes a crossbreed between a dog and a coyote.

(2) "Livestock" includes exotic livestock as defined by Section 161.001, Agriculture Code.



§ 822.012. Certain Dogs and Coyotes Prohibited From Running at Large; Criminal Penalty

(a) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that the owner, keeper, or person knows is accustomed to run, worry, or kill livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may not permit the dog or coyote to run at large.

(b) A person who violates this section commits an offense. An offense under this subsection is punishable by a fine of not more than $100.

(c) Each time a dog or coyote runs at large in violation of this section constitutes a separate offense.



§ 822.013. Dogs or Coyotes That Attack Animals

(a) A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1) any person witnessing the attack; or

(2) the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the attack.

(b) A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in control of the dog or coyote.

(c) A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal control authority. The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all damage done by the dog or coyote.

(d) The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the local animal control authority.

(e) A person is not required to acquire a hunting license under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or coyote under this section.



[Sections 822.014 to 822.020 reserved for expansion]

This is all Texas legalese for "A .222 or .223 would work, but have you looked into a .22-250?"

 

[roo_ster]

Feral dogs were a menace in rural Iowa in my granddad's time. He lost many hogs until he finally broke down and bought a rifle, as the bolt action and single shot shotguns could not put out enough fire to put enough of a dent in the pack(s).

After he bought that pump .22 rifle, he would go to town when the pack came around. I guess he had rigged up some lights around the hog enclosure with a remote switch in the house and flip it when the pack came to kill his hogs.

Yep, even the lowly .22, if applied with vigor, can do the trick.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lupinus, I've seen the remains of a covey of quail which were killed by a feral cat but not eaten. Well, maybe one...

The Wisconsin Game department hired a bunch of wildlife-biology grad students and did an extensive study of songbird depredation. They concluded that one feral cat can kill as many as one hundred songbirds a year, along with mice, rabbits and squirrels.

They estimated a statewide feral cat population of some one million.

Down here in south Georgia, the animal shelter people responded to feral cat complaints with a HavAHart trapping program. In one small locale they captured 72 feral cats.

And that's why I've passed up a deer to shoot a cat.

Art

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Lupinus, I've seen the remains of a covey of quail which were killed by a feral cat but not eaten. Well, maybe one...

The Wisconsin Game department hired a bunch of wildlife-biology grad students and did an extensive study of songbird depredation. They concluded that one feral cat can kill as many as one hundred songbirds a year, along with mice, rabbits and squirrels.

They estimated a statewide feral cat population of some one million.

Down here in south Georgia, the animal shelter people responded to feral cat complaints with a HavAHart trapping program. In one small locale they captured 72 feral cats.

Feral -- and even tame cats allowed to wander -- are the number one introduced predator in North America.

 

[Lupinus]

if it is obviously feral I have no problem with you shooting it. I only have a problem when it is shoot on sight because for all you know it is some little girls pet or some elderly ladies companion.

How would you feel about it if someone shot your little girls or your widdowed mothers cat because it happened to slip out side and was doing nothing more then enjoying a nice day and someone shot it?

Ferals and problem animals are one thing, odds with cats being someones pet and just enjoying the day like you are is to high to just blast it without catching it in the act or is obviously feral

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Cats are introduced predators -- not natural to this country. They kill more wildlife than any other predator.

For folks who don't want their kitties to disappear, keep them in the house -- and have them spayed or neutered.

 

[Lupinus]

yeah, they kill rats and mice and keep the rodent population down whats your point?

They aren't killing cows or any live stock larger then a rabbit or chicken (if they are, shoot them).

Comparing a house cat that kills field mice and occasionaly gets a song bird to a feral dog that does serious live stock damage is like apples and oranges. Even if cats kill more animals then any other, most of what they manage I don't think you'll miss.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course -- but there is plenty of documented evidence that cats kill songbirds, quail and many other species. In fact, they are the greatest killers of songbirds on the continent.

 

[Lupinus]

and I've never heard a lack of song birds

something needs to kill and eat them to regulate their population.

Id rather it be house cats then things I'd rather not have in my bac yard

 

[Mornard]

Feral dogs got me started hunting and shooting... In Jr. High, our horse farm (Arabian show horses) shared a common border with a heavily wooded, very brushy summer-cabin development area on a lake. Nothing wrong with summer people - they brought lots of money into the local economy. But, some of them would bring Fido up on their last trip o' the year, and leave him. The packs of feral dogs were a problem, attacking a worker on our farm while he was painting the back barn, and even chased schoolmates of mine while on their bicycles.

At any rate, my dad introduced me to the SMLE Mk 5, Jungle Carbine. We bought it at the local Army-Navy surplus store (remember them?) brand new, in the wraps, full of cosmoline, for $30. but I digress...

We never used to see deer in our woods either, but, once the feral dog packs mysteeeeeeeeriously dissapeared... we saw many, many more deer in the ensuring years, even coming close to the barns and paddocks. And we never lost a foal, thanks for asking.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

and I've never heard a lack of song birds

Then you haven't been paying attention to ecological matters.

From http://www.stanford.edu/group/stanfordbirds/text/essays/Eastern_Songbirds.html

Since the end of World War II there has been a decline in forest songbird populations over much of the eastern United States.

From http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/states/florida_intro.htm

Florida's native wildlife species are threatened by the growing number of free-roaming owned, stray, and feral domestic cats. The adverse impacts of cats in Florida is best documented for threatened and endangered species, especially beach and cotton mice, the Lower Keys marsh rabbit, and the Florida Scrub-Jay. Cats also kill birds with populations in decline, such as Black Skimmer, Least Tern, and the endangered Piping Plover. Disease spread by feral cats may threaten the endangered Florida panther and other wild animals.

From http://www.njaudubon.org/Conservation/CatsIndoors/cats/Predation.pdf

How many birds and other wildlife do domestic cats kill each year in the U.S.?
Exact numbers are unknown, but scientists estimate that nationwide, cats kill hundreds of millions of birds, and more than a billion
small mammals, such as rabbits, squirrels, and chipmunks, each year. Cats kill common species such as Cardinal, Blue Jay, and House
Wren, as well as rare and endangered species such as Piping Plover, Florida Scrub-Jay, and California Least Tern.

Have your cats spayed or neutered, and keep them indoors.

 

[Art Eatman]

Lupinus, we gun-folks are always griping about how hard it is to get anti-gun types to look at facts, not base everything on emotion or opinions based on a lack of knowledge of facts.

Your argument seems rather familiar, somehow...

I've never in my near-72 years heard anybody suggest walking down a street, blasting away at Putty Poo-Tat. A feral cat is what's out in the woods and pastures, most anywhere outside the city limits.

Art

 

[JohnKSa]

People focus on birds because they're visible, but cats (feral or otherwise) that are allowed to roam free also are death to small reptiles (such as anoles and geckos) which are generally quite beneficial to man in that they consume insects.

Furthermore, in a normal predator prey situation, the predator population wanes when the prey population declines. This keeps things in balance and prevents the eradication of the prey. This balance is disrupted in the case of pet cats which are allowed to roam. They are fed by their owners and therefore their well-being is independent of the prey population. The result is that they can literally hunt prey species to extinction in local areas. Since the problem is widespread, this means that some type of animals have been eradicated in large areas by roaming pet cats.

In fact, the pet cats tend to be MORE damaging than feral cats for this reason. A feral cat is essentially a standard predator (not native, but still reliant on prey population) while roaming pet cats are not adversely affected by drops in prey population.

Studies have shown that domestic cats (roaming pets, NOT ferals) can "remove at least 50% of the standing bird populations or destroy all the young being hatched" in populated areas. Their effect on other species such as small reptiles, frogs, etc. are equally devastating. A study in Australia showed that "In total, the consumption of native prey by domestic cats has been shown to comprise 48 species of mammals, 177 species of birds, 46 species of reptiles, 5 species of amphibians and many invertebrates..."

Roaming domestic animals are BAD news--even WORSE than ferals in terms of environmental impact--no matter what the species.

And NO, I'm not a cat hater. I own a cat, but it's a pet and I care about it. So it stays inside where it doesn't kill other animals, doesn't get hit by cars, doesn't catch diseases from other cats, doesn't get shot by ecologically minded persons, doesn't get trapped by the animal control, etc.

 

[Art Eatman]

My 2nd marriage deal in 1989 has me part-time in Terlingua, part-time here at my wife's home outside of Thomasville, Jawgia.

Early years, lots of squirrels and songbirds. Cardinals, brown thrashers, robins, poor-wills, tweety-birds and humming birds and other stuff.

The next-door neighbor started feeling sorry for "stray" cats, and began feeding a bunch.

Few squirrels, now; almost zero birds but for pass-throughs. Only the hummers.

Art

 

[Jalexander]

I don't think we have any feral cats around here, since the coyotes eat any house cat that they can get catch.

James

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Alot of dogs do go feral but the main reason they do is because the owners don"t have the heart to take them to the veteranarian and euthanize them. Classify those dogs as having no choice. Dogs have a pack instinct that is very strong and will take over. regardless if he is wearing a collar or not a dog is a dog, they will pack and they will kill fluffy, cow and pony. They have been doing it for millions of years so why stop now. Harry the homeowner who doesn't have the guts to get a dog euthanized that he can't handle anymore, moves or dumps him. Passes the problem off on other people in living in the Country. I've shot my share of dogs because of it. It's horrible Because of some gutless people can't take the proper responsiblity for their own domesticated dogs.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Mornard --we had a pack of wild dogs years back that were killing deer.
One hunter saw them tearing apart a deer, but it was bow season and I
guess he felt less than adequately armed and didn't climb down out of
his stand to confront them.

I ran into the same pack when I was tracking a blood trail on the ground.
I started off by yelling at them which caused most to run off, but the
"leader of the pack" wouldn't give ground. I thought "fine then" and
drew back on him at which point he took off.

 

[PJR]

I live in a rural area and if I adopted the "shoot every dog I see" policy endorsed by some people I'd be tarred and feathered in short order.

Dogs sometimes wander and even the best of pet owners can't be blamed if it happens once in a while. My policy on dogs is simple. A lone dog with a collar that looks well groomed gets a pass if found on our property. If it has ID tags and is approachable I'll phone the owners and tell them I found their dog. I've done this a few times and it's been much appreciated by my neighbours.

If the dog has no collar, is ungroomed with matted fur I might put a round near it just to run it off. If it keeps coming back, is threatening in any way or my gut tells me it's a problem or doing to be one then it's lights out. I've had to shoot a couple in the last few years but have let far more go along their way.

 

[fletchbutt152]

Damn Cats

Ok, so here's my $0.02.

I've personally seen a completely declawed (front and back), 8 lbs (small) cat kill a fullsized cottontail. The only reason...well, two reasons I guess I didn't shoot it was because it was my cousins cat and because I didn't have a gun in my hand...I took the rabbit anyway.

But the point is...in my studies of biology (BS in Bio), the cat is the best equipped land mammal for hunting. It is spcifically designged (ok, bad choice of words...they were selected through the good graces of being the fittest) to be the top of the food chain. They eat an enormous ammount of meat up to about 10% of their diet at a sitting...they may not eat for another 2-3 days, but because of risk of not having another meal they sometimes kill animals twice their size) and those that have a house to come back to only kill. They don't need the meat but enjoy the sport.

So, besides their natural instincts to kill. We're missing the point. Cat may not kill calfs or deer or goats, they do kill babys of most everything that is wild...ducks, grouse, pheasants, squirrels rabbits...you name it...everything. And that affects the entire food chain.

I have had cats my entire life and they keep the mice out of the house and give the dog a good chew toy, but they should not be outside.

If a dog is in a pack away from buildings...they are running...they might not be killing wildlife or cattel...yet...but from studying wolfs, they will. And once they do they will until they die.

I must admit I've not studied domesticated animal much other than my own observances, but I must say that if you see running cat's or dogs and if you cannot recognize a collar-SHOOT IT. If you don't, you are doing a great disservice to the already beat up ecological systems we have.

 

[fletchbutt152]

P.S.

Anyone have ideas for getting rid ot the 15-20 stray cats in our appartment complex? I've got some Aguila .22 super colibri. Super Quiet...all you can hear is the firing pin...however I don't want to go to jail so I'm thinking my blowdart gun will have to suffice. Anyone know of a poison? There isn't any wildlife here anymore except another colonizing breed of birds...starlings and I suppose a few cowbirds. Please help!

 

[m14rick]

Tried anti freeze?

 

[BIGJACK]

If its in the woods and don;t have a collar on, shoot it, cat or dog.:

Don't depend on cayotes catching um, they catch very few feral cats. Cats do not run from cayotes they simply climb a tree. They have a lot better luck taking cats from peoples yards.