Wilderness protection ideas when hiking?

[Mainsail]

In bear country don’t get between a cub and mother, Make noise and keep your food away from your campsite. Other than that you are more likely to step on a rattlesnake than running across a wild animal so stay alert.

Uh, well… when I leave the trailhead, my destination is never going to be ‘between a cub and its mother’. As for the rattlesnake, the statement is 100% untrue as we don’t have those here in EDIT: on the wet side of WA.

I dont want to take this thread off on a tangent, but isn't carrying onto Federal land illegal?

I only know WA, in the National Parks, dogs and guns are illegal. In the National Forests and wilderness areas, dogs and guns are legal.

If you really know of a problem such as Grizzly Bears carry the biggest darn rifle you can carry or stay at home.

So the only thing I need to be armed for are grizzly bears? What the heck did I go to all the bother of getting a CCW for then? We don’t have any bears in the city.

Two recent murders notwithstanding, you are usually safe out on the trails. The trailheads are another story. The big dangers hiking and backpacking here in WA (as I see them) are people, wild dogs, cougars, and bears in pretty much that order. I’ve also heard a disgruntled elk can be dangerous, but I’m not sure where I heard that.

 

[telkontar]

On the West side of the Cascades, 2-legged predators are probably the top danger. In the North Cascades or the National Forests on the east side, it appears drug manufacturers are spreading. Immigration smugglers are also around.
Last summer on the east side, my 4-year old and I met a black bear at about 30 yards. I was unarmed. While I will probably begin carrying in those woods, picking up big sticks and looking big and fierce is usually the trick (unless a sow is protected cubs or other special situations). Our bear ran off (my son was on my shoulders so I looked very tall). I am actually most frightened of rattlers on the east side, so I may alternate snake shot with FMJ in my revolver.
Do what you're comfortable with -- the goal is to enjoy the world's most beautiful country.

 

[Zoogster]

I am actually most frightened of rattlers on the east side, so I may alternate snake shot with FMJ in my revolver.

I honestly never understand people that go into the wilderness prepared to shoot a snake. If you see the snake then you can step around it, or make it run off by throwing something at it or making noise and clearing your path. If you are in danger of being biten it is because you did not see the snake and stepped on top of it or right next to it, in which case a holstered gun will do you no good as they strike in a fraction of a second.

The snakes kill many rodents which spread many germs and diseases like Hantavirus, and plague that are a much bigger threat to humans. Killing such a snake from the safety of many feet away is more harmful than helpful. Having snakeshot to do it means every other shot is nearly useless against most other things.

Cougars are ambush predators and you should not see one before it attacks. They are far stealthier than you, and your footsteps will be loud enough to mask an apporach. They rarely bother people, and the few times they do if you can fight it off, it is because it is a young one inexperienced in killing you instantly and instead grabbed your head or something like in the recent case in CA instead of your neck because your built differently than its normal prey. In such a case being able to get to your gun while struggling and fighting for balance and control trying to limit its damage and on the ground while the back of your head is in its jaws is more important than what the gun shoots.

A bear on the other hand requires heavy, hard hitting power, aimed well or delivered in quantity, and sometimes both to be stopped if it is determined. However even most bear encounters can be avoided or ended without lethal force. If your a nature aficionado, and not just a clueless city dweller wanting to walk amongst some trees, then you will probably be good at determining how to manage that without having to resort to shooting the bear.

Most people hurt by bears are either seen as a threat to a cub, or are a hunter that is half deaf from just shooting some game (often with no hearing protection) and in the middle of skinning it creating a tastey attractive aroma throughout the forest, while thier body is recovering from the adrenaline dumped into thier system earlier and so is in the crash phase, all meaning they are less alert and susceptible to surprise.

Now humans on the other hand can pose a real and significant danger while out on the trails in the middle of nowhere. Unlike an animal, the danger is not obvious even if they are intent on doing you harm, and taking your gun out for readiness/deterrent before a threat has emerged would not usualy be legal or polite. This means the criminal can evaluate the situation and choose when best to strike or to strike at all. So always be on your toes in any encounter with other people in the forest. They won't have the same level of deterrent knowing they will be caught and punished by LEO responding after the fact like in the city, and so are even more likely to victimize you. Most criminals however are of the 'want something easy or for nothing' crowd, and hiking for miles for some nice scenery and views is definately not a something for nothing enviroment. So you will usualy find few such people in the woods miles from the trail head or roads, and if you do they are doing something specificly illegal that makes noise, and you should hear or be aware of them before they are aware of your presence most of the time and can just avoid them. However they are still the most likely candidate for requiring defense from or use of your firearm in defending against.

 

[Cosmoline]

As for the rattlesnake, the statement is 100% untrue as we don’t have those here in WA.

You're 100% wrong. Let me introduce you to your neighbor:

Crotalus oreganus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_oreganus

I grew up in Oregon and Washington and while rattlesnakes aren't nearly as common as they are in warmer climates, they do exist. I've personally pushed a huge example of Crotalus oreganus off the road in the Cascades. Thankfully they tend to be pretty laid back and bites are very rare compared with their more violent cousins to the south. They are also far more common on the east side of the Cascades than to the west. Though with winters getting less intense I wouldn't be surprised to see them slithering further west.

No need to shoot them, though.

 

[Mainsail]

You're 100% wrong. Let me introduce you to your neighbor:

LOL, I was editing that right as you posted Cosmoline, and you're right. I've never heard of them here on the wet side (Cascades and Olympics, where the OP is talking about hiking).

Either way, a gun is probably the least effective way of dispatching a snake. My trekking poles would be far better if I thought it needed killing, but I can't imagine a situation where it would. Trust me, I don't ever want to hear that 44 going off without earplugs unless there is no other choice.

 

[TallPine]

The big dangers hiking and backpacking here in WA (as I see them) are people, wild dogs, cougars, and bears in pretty much that order.

What about the Hide-Behinds, the Sidehill Gouger, and Bigfoot ...?




You could just carry a towel with you everywhere you go. Most creatures are deathly afraid of towels, you know

 

[MillCreek]

Wow, B.D. Turner, that is quite a story about the rottweiler! Several solid hits with expanded .45 JHP and he still wouldn't die!

And I have been hiking, snowshoeing and XC skiing in the Cascades for about 35 years now, and I always carry concealed. I usually carry a stainless .357 revolver with the first three chambers loaded with some 180 grain FMJ and the last three with 125 grain JHP. The first three are for 4 legged and the last three are for two legged predators. I rarely encounter wild animals, much to my chagrin from a photographic standpoint, but encounter questionable people from time to time on the trails. And I think often about the two women hikers who were murdered last year on a trail off the Mountain Loop Highway about 40 miles from my house.

 

[Handyman]

Where is the quote button on this forum ????

lupinus -- you have a good point . I shouldn't have made the statement I did . No I do not say the same thing to people who ccw . It's just that I see way to many posts where people seem to be way too worried about being attacked by wild animals .
Like I said , I "carry" when I'm hiking and it's good to be prepared because anything can happen . IMO , the chances of having to defend youself against a 2 legged predator are far greater than having to defend yourself against any wild animal - no matter where you are .

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't want to offend anyone , but . Whenever I see this type of thread I have to laugh . If you're so afraid of being attacked by some woodland creature while hiking , then maybe you should stick to the pavement .

I've hiked most of the Appalachian Trail and many another wilderness trail. I've never been threatened by any wildlife (but that doesn't mean it can't happen.) I have had to hold off dogs with my walking stick a few times, though - hence my advice to avoid "a shack with a pack."

Fortunately here in Arkansas we have the only National Park where hunting is legal -- the Buffalo National River. I can legally carry a gun there -- except in designated camping areas where I simply unload it and put in my pack.

In the wilderness, I go light -- a Colt DS for hiking, a Colt Woodsman if I'm hoping to pot a squirrel or rabbit on the trail.

Edited to add:
I often hike right past a spot where a hiker was attacked by a black bear. The hiker was in a tent, and the bear dragged the tent about a hundred yards with the hiker inside (the hiker survived.)

I only use a combinationi tarp and poncho when hiking, and any bear that makes me shoot holes in my tarp is in serious trouble!

 

[shadowalker]

Understand the area you will be in and the threats it poses and the environments they like. Be aware of hills and other obstacles that can conceal your presence from animals. Hiking or camping in Alaska is far different than hiking in other places. Bears like most animals generally try to avoid people but they can and do attack people that are not hunting and are not messing with their cubs.

In Idaho we have several cougar attacks per year, I recall a recent one being fatal.

If you follow the rules, make noise, etc you are probably far more likely to encounter human threats than animals but don't rule it out.

There was a study done in Alaska where students were studying fish, they encountered a large number of bears so they started blowing marine horns before going to the shore and drastically reduced bear encounters.

In general I'm more concerned about the people I encounter in remote areas than animals but it rarely hurts to be prepared. Doubletap makes great ammo for defense against people and animals and sells in quantity of 50 for the same price more major manufacturers charge for 20.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Do they make AP pistol rounds?

 

[g5reality]

I hike in the Santa Monica Mountains. There have been numerous sightings of Cougars and Mountain Lions. There are also many rattle snakes. The deer population keeps the mountain lions cougars, wolves and cyotes with plenty to eat in addition to wild rabbit.

I always carry, even in the Santa Monica Mountains. I carry #9 shotgun shells for the .38 in addition to FMJ rounds in two speed loaders in addition to the loaded Hydra Shock Hollow pionts. I don't ever think I would need more than 15 rounds while hiking for the day or cycling on the fire trails.

 

[obxned]

Bears can be a real problem. Get a good bear pepper spray. It's better than a big pistol as a first strike weapon. As far as firearms, if I don't have a rifle, any large caliber SD pistol will serve. I would choose heavy, hot loads, like DoubleTap or something in a +P.

Cougars rarely bother anyone. You most often see them following you - they are making sure you leave the area so they can go back to their regular business. The recent cougar attacks on people occurred where cougars live in close proximity of people, have not been hunted, and are short on regular prey. If one wants to eat you, he will probably be on you before you know he’s around. Any SD firearm will do it at contact range.

But, carry ANY gun and chances are you will have no problem with four-legged visitors. The smell of the various gun oils and cleaners is a strong warning to animals everywhere that there is hunting.

I would be more worried about two-legged preditors!

 

[sixgunner455]

Where is the quote button on this forum ????

Click "reply" button.
Scroll down to post you wish to quote.
Highlight appropriate section, copy and paste into reply window.
Highlight quote in reply window.
Click on yellow text bubble (looks like a cartoon strip word bubble) to the left of the # on the row of buttons just above the reply window.

A bit convoluted. Somebody told me how last week.

 

[telkontar]

Just to defend my rattlesnake-phobia

I will flee or go way around any snake I see. (Watch Disney's "Legend of Lobo" if you ever need a primer on handling a close-up rattlesnake.) However, peace of mind is important. Of course, shooting can just be fun, so we usually have firearms in the trunk.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

"They are more scared of you than you are of them" usually applies to animals. But rabies, mama-protecting-the-cubs, hunger and 'the rut' can change that assumption.

Case in point: My father was chased up a tree by a rutting, charging bull moose. All he had at the time was a .22 pistol. He fired at its feet, hoping to scare it away, but it only went away after it got bored and figured out he was not a comely moosette or a rival. It could have been a sadder story if he had not found a windfall tree to climb.

Idea #1 A Surefire flashlight.

Surefire's latest print ads tell a story of a man who warded off a charging moose with a bright Surefire flashed into the beast's eyes. $60 worth of flashlight and $25 worth of batteries have been joining me in the woods ever since I heard about this. You have to see the sheer brightness of a Surefire to understand.

Idea #2 Bring and use lots of noise - gunfire, yelling, whistle, etc.

I have seen deer next to those at whom I was shooting just stand there at the sound of gunfire...and then bolt when I dropped a magazine on the floor of a deer stand. A gunshot did not make them flinch, but a much quieter, but probably more 'normal' sound of a human dropping something metallic prompted flight.

So some other noise - like a 30-06 magazine dropped on a deer stand floor - might be good to add to your moose/bear/cougar-repellant noises if gunfire is not working. Simply yelling is even worth a shot.

Idea #3 It makes little sense NOT to carry a firearm when you think it might be of use.

Human beings have been struggling with the dangers of the road, the forest and the field for millions of years. Now that we have the means of effective personal self-defense in our hand, blissninnies and sob-sisters cry for the "good old days" before handguns.

What they have forgotten is that brigands used to attack people on the roads, hungry wild animals have attacked settlements from the forest and "international relations" used to mean hand-to-hand fighting with your neighboring state in the battlefields every 20 years.

Personal firearms put an end to all that.

FMJ seems a good choice in your situation. They all fall to the hardball.

 

[Dysfunctional Individual]

In my (too) many years hiking in WA, bears, cougars and rattlers really have not posed problems, despite that I've seen many over the years. The only real danger I've encountered was from individuals engaged in unsafe shooting -- e.g., across a dirt road, into an opposing hillside, etc. A weapon has indeed been useful, but only to make noise to let these individuals know I was around. I was often unable to shout loud enough for them to hear.

The old meth-lab-in-the-woods scenario also remains a consideration, especially if you go off-trail and into untraditional areas. At the ends of old logging-road spurs, for example, I've come across various suspicious vehicles and paraphernalia, not to mention illegal vegetation pickers and dumpers that weren't expecting anyone to be around.

 

[molonlabe]

DI, I almost forgot about that. I did some time with search and rescue and bought my first Glock in 1980's because I wanted more firepower than a revolver just for that reason. Carrying all that gear. Med pack, climbing equipment and supplies ruled out a rifle. I always figured that if i needed more than 30 rounds it was time for the Calvary to come over the hills. We had a bit of training about meth labs as they existed along with Marijuana patches that people were quite protective of to the extent they would booby trap the area. Just to add I don't do much wilderness camping today as that was in my younger days. I would sometimes go out for a week on end and when I first arrived in California I did a 5 day stint in the mountains’ at Christmas time and got caught in a blizzard. To me it was a spiritual experience today it would probably kill me. I remember my dog had to get in my sleeping bag with me because he was shaking so bad from the cold. In a crazy way I miss those days.

 

[Dave Workman]

I have written about this subject several times since lastg July's Pinnacle Lake Trail murders up in Washington's Snohomish County (the WA members here will remember that double killing, mother and daughter, shot at close range in the head 2 miles or thereabouts up the trail from their car).

The killings freaked some people out, others were "brought out of the closet" as pretty hard-line gun owners and gun packers on the trail. A rather refreshing discussion ensued on the NWHikers list.

I will carry either a 2.5-inch Model 19 with 2 speedloaders and six more rounds on a snap-on cartridge carrier, a .45, or my trusty .41 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk. The sight of those handguns may alarm some, it has riled a couple of people but you know, I've never had any real trouble with anybody. Pretty much a "cause and effect" kind of thing, eh?

The biggest problem I've had on the trail are loose dogs. Dogs aren't supposed to be running loose on national forest trails, and the owners know it. Some of said owners are purebred butt plugs.

In the off-trail scenarios, I've encountered all of two (2) guys who probably had no good on their minds, but they took one look at that sidearm and had second thoughts. You know, a firearm is a great deterrent to all sorts of things

But someone else here did have a good point about meth labs and dope grows. The national forests, and even some parts of national parks are being used increasingly for criminal purposes. And the people doing that stuff aren't too shy about "discouraging" witnesses.

Ergo, I never leave the home without one, and maybe more.

 

[Leanwolf]

Carry if you want to: don't carry if you don't want to. Simple as that.

As for me, I don't expect my home to burn down, but I have no intention of dropping my fire insurance.

I look at a carry firearm as "insurance."

L.W.

 

[ARTiger]

If you're going to carry a .40 in the Cascades, I would recommend a lod like this from DoubleTap . . . A 200 grain wide, flat nosed solid at 1100 FPS would be the best woods load (other than handloads) I have seen yet in this caliber.

40 S&W 200gr. WFNGC 50rds $29.95 $26.95
Deep Penetrating and hard-hitting! This load offer both for woods and hunting applications.

The 200gr WFNGC @ 1050fps from a Glock 23!

990fps 435 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.

1100fps 538 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.

Caliber : .40 S&W

Bullet : 200gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Checked

Box of 50rds.

 

[Sharps-shooter]

I've spent lots of time hiking, In the appalachians, rockies, alps, pamir, Karakoram, Himalayas, Sonoran desrt and arctic tundra though not in the cascades. I have occasionally spent months at a stretch away from human civilization. No matter how remote the area, my biggest fear is always the two-legged predators. Not hawks and owls, actually, I mean humans.

I heartily recommend carrying a big stick. If a creature ambushes you, it's immediately going to want to get inside your guard, right up against the part of your body with all the vital organs in it. This is going to make it mighty hard to draw your piece, if you haven't already. a stick can helt to avert or prevent such a situation (though honestly, I've never had to use it against anything bigger than a large mutt).

Watch for tracks, scat, and other signs, learn what they mean, listen carefully, and try to keep stock of who is in the woods with you.

I haven't much practical experience with pistols in this department just yet. I agree that shooting a snake is ridiculous for self defense-- just stay away from them if you can, and if you step on it it will have bitten you before you can do anything about it.

My one really scary encounter with a bear, I didn't have a gun, I just charged at it and screamed at the top of my lungs. It ran, and I lived. Didn't sleep too easy that night.

Usually in the woods, I carry a pocketknife and a stick. If I'm going out for a long time I also carry a Case bowie knife. Sometimes I carry a sharps rifle, which can "roll" a black bear, but is single shot (something a lot like a ruger #1 in 45-70). So far, I haven't been killed by anything.

Once when I was in a national park in Montana, I got to see what the rangers there carried in case of grizzly encounters-- .410 shotguns. Personally, I almost would have rather had my hands free to try and fistfight the thing.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

Get yourself a four inch revolver. Make it a 357 or larger. If it is a six shooter load 3 chambers with hollow points. Load the other 3 with a good solid. If it is a 7 shot put in 4 solids. I carry a .44 magnum when I go in the woods. It will handle just about any situation. It has better sights for fast accurate shooting. Plus you can taylor ammo for where you will be. Big heavy critters get big heavy bullets. No big critters then you can go to smaller lighter bullets.
Just my take on it. I know you have a .40 now. I would go with the heavier loads and alternate rounds in the magazine. HP/Solid. you are going to empty the gun anyway.

Semper Fi

 

[hagar]

This is what I used to do in AZ hiking in "touristy places" after me and my wife caught a flakload of abuse going up the Barnardt Trail carrying rifles in bear season from hikers, and I got tired of getting in THEIR faces telling them loudly to go .... themselves(you fill in the blanks). Carried a Glock 20 loaded with hot loads and 2 spare 15 round magazines, with a dissassembled Thompson Contender carbine with a scoped 16.25 inch 30/30 barrel and some hot handloads and some accelerator loads in a backpack.

 

[Lonestar49]

Quote:

Where is the quote button on this forum ????

Click "reply" button.
Scroll down to post you wish to quote.
Highlight appropriate section, copy and paste into reply window.
Highlight quote in reply window.
Click on yellow text bubble (looks like a cartoon strip word bubble) to the left of the # on the row of buttons just above the reply window.

A bit convoluted. Somebody told me how last week.