Wilderness protection ideas when hiking?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Last edited:
+1 on the primary danger being humans.

A high school friend and her fiance were murdered many years ago in the Point Reyes National Seashore (around 1979-80). The goblin that did it was caught and punished, but it caused me to re-think my unarmed hiking.

I've had one encounter with large, predatory wildlife, and it's a cherished experience. In high school, several of us were cooking steaks on the beach near Wildcat Camp in Point Reyes. We spotted a cougar sitting on the cliff above us, watching us. There was no way the animal would have attacked us, but it was a fascinating few minutes of trading gazes with a large cat at a distance of about 50 feet.

I carry because of humans, and my firearm choices reflect this. I'm most likely to have a 9mm with JHP, or a .38+P with me.

The suggestion of the staff is a good one. The stick is respected by animals and humans alike and may help you to avoid using a gun.

Stay alert, or you might miss something beautiful!
Dirty Bob
 
Quote:
DoubleTap makes a 200 grain hardcast load for the .40. That is the only way to go for the .40 in the woods, I would think:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

Any reason why that round is a better option than the one I linked to, here http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=153???

They are both 200gr and same velocity.
Click to expand...
I'd like to get it sorted out and order something. Can anyone comment on that??
 
I've been backpacking the Olympic National Park & Forest for the last ~ 20 years since I moved up here. Usually solo and 99% in the Park. It's amazing how many other folk pack solo as well. Including an occasional woman or pair of women.

Never have packed a firearm (prohibited in the Park yet allowed in the Forest) but carry a sheathed folder and a USMC Kabar in plain sight.

Rather than a walking stick, I carry a 1.5 x 56 inch aluminum fly rod carrier. If necessary, it'll instantly make sharp noise and strong enough to pack a wallop.

Haven't seen any cougar. Black bear but twice - a rather large one across the river that walked deeper into the woods when it became of aware of my presence and a cub that awoke me from a nap. We were both startled but he was the one chased up the tree. Never saw mama but suspect she was across the river toward which the cub later ran to. Both sightings were along the Elwha River. The cub at two miles and the other 20 miles from the trail head.

Foodstuff, less processing meals, is always stored on bear wire. In lieu of that, I'll fashion my own from para cord.

My pack and equipment does not smell of food but usually does smell of fresh insect repellent. I always wash with soap after handling food and make sure my clothing smells heavily of wood smoke and a bit of that bug juice.

Thus far, meeting woodland critters that could be considered a threat has been very rare. The people I have met are very friendly without exception. It would have to be an oddball to pile into the back country X number of miles with the intent of committing crimes against other folk. At the very least, I'd recommend carrying a walking stick of some design and a good knife.

Cheers! beerchug.gif

BTW, if you decide to pack at night, it's a good idea to have a quality headlamp and at least one additional light such as a Mini Maglite handy.
 
Last edited:
I just picked up the 3" S&W 337 38+P. Nice-n-light, adjustible sights, and around 1050fps from my 110 gr reloads. Should deter any of the 2 legged predators. I bought this gun almost entirely for hiking.
 
If I'm loading my guns for self defense they get Winchester Ranger T's. Only paper targets get CCI Blazer FMJ. I have 40 acres in the country of which 90% is woods, when I'm out on the property for a hike I'll carry the RIA .45 w/8 rounds in a Milt Sparks 55BN. If I'm walking in my neighborhood at home, I carry a Colt .380 Govt model w/7 rounds in a shoulder rig. When we car travel to PA or FL I'll take the CZ 75 9mm w/14 rounds IWB or under a towel on the seat next to me. Every gun has a purpose, but the ammo is all the same type JHP for SD. Mike Z
 
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
DoubleTap makes a 200 grain hardcast load for the .40. That is the only way to go for the .40 in the woods, I would think:

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...roducts_id=210

Any reason why that round is a better option than the one I linked to, here http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...ucts_id=153???

They are both 200gr and same velocity.

I'd like to get it sorted out and order something. Can anyone comment on that??

ANYONE???
Click to expand...

Can't help you...the bottom site does not open.

If they are both 200gr hard cast at similar velocities out of your barrel length, you should be okay. If you are going to carry an auto, it should definitely be one that works for you every time and be sure to carry some
extra rounds.
 
ShooterMcGavin,

AMMO
+1 on the DoubleTap 200 gr loads. The difference is just that one is an all lead bullet with a wide flat point, and the other is a FMJ with a narrower flat point. For large animals you definitely want the widest flat point that your gun will feed reliably.

I carry the 200 gr FMJ in my G23 when I am hiking (Western Oregon Cascades and Coast range). If I had seen the lead flat points I would have tried those instead. You might by the variety pack and get a couple of boxes of each type of 200 gr. If the lead feeds fine then use it, if not then go with the FMJ.

THREATS
No, I have never been attacked by human or wild animal in 40 years of hiking the Olympics and Cascades. But, you are darn tootin' I carry all the time. I have never seen a cougar, but there have been several reports of attacks in the Cascades even just east of Renton/Bellevue, and one was sighted in the suburban wooded park in NW Portland.

I am not afraid to drive my car around Portland, yet I still carry. I am not afraid of hiking in the woods but it seems foolish not to carry a firearm. Better to have and not need then need and not have. When you are 10-20 miles from the trail head you are pretty much on your own and can be hours away from any help. When I am alone I am not as concerned as when hiking with my wife or daughters. That complicates the situation drastically.

* I have seen a marijuana patch in the Olympics just northeast of Elma. Fortunately not manned, but obvious signs of booby traps of some sort (trip wire) which I had no intention of exploring.

* I saw a black bear in Mt Rainier that looked way bigger than ANY black bear I ever saw (honey colored and I would say at least 500 lbs). Most I have seen are more like 150 - 3000 lbs. Fortunately it was on the other side of the river (at Indian Bar on the Wonderland Trail). That's when I decided if I ever run into an angry bear I want a .44 at least!

* Hiked to Bear Camp on the east side of Olympics and got pretty concerned when I was going in and out of think alder patches next to a creek and there were huge piles of steaming bear scat every 1/4 mile or so. That would have been ideal country to run into a mamma and cubs with no notice. The creek was loud enough it could mask a lot of noise. I tried whistling as a forewarning, but for some reason my mouth was a tad too dry. :)

* Hiked into North Cascades NRA from the west side valley onto Copper Ridge. At the first pass we met a guy who was bugging out with literally the shirt on his back. Said he spent the night in a tree as a large black bear tore his camp apart. He was cooking dinner on a stove when the bear started circling. He banged his pot and cup, waved his arms and shouted to no avail. As the bear got too close he climbed a nearby tree about 30 ft up. The bear destroyed everything, his tent, pack, food, etc. He was pretty shaken when we saw him. Later we ran into a ranger who informed us there was a renegade teenage bear lurking around the pass. Seems it had learned the pass was a choke point of hiker traffic and he could usually "scare up" some food there. She warned us to be very alert. Of course she was carrying a revolver. Hopefully it was a .44 but I doubt it.

* I have encountered a couple of suspicious persons at trail head and NFS gravel pit areas and been glad I was armed. Used to be you could park at a trail head and the only other humans you encountered were hard core hikers. Not anymore. Lots of news stories in western Washington and Oregon of hikers' cars being broken into and lone campers being murdered. Plus, lots of news stories of meth labs being found in woods/brush areas. even guys getting ambushed at gravel pits for their firearms (remember Platt and Matix in the Florida FBI shootout?)

* More recently starting to see more unleashed pit bulls, Rottweilers, etc. on the trails. Problem is they often range far ahead of their owners and there is no telling if they are wild, ill treated or just running for the fun of it, or when their mood might suddenly change.

So, no, none of these situations resulted in an attack on me. But I prefer to take these as fair warnings and prepare accordingly for the worst.

I chuckle at the posters who always chime in on these threads discouraging packing a firearm just because in most situations wild life is more afraid of you then you are of them. Well, duh! I am not concerned with the 99% of wildlife. I want to be prepared as best as I can for that once in a lifetime situation when I meet the wrong animal at the wrong time. Sure wish I knew which animal it would be, when it would be and on which hike. But I don't so I go armed as often as possible.
 
ShooterMcGavin,

The reason the hardcast load is better is because it will not deform (or very little), even under circumstances that would cause a FMJ lead round to deform. The hardcast is an alloy that is harder than lead and will break through bone rather than deform. Since the edges are harder, it will penetrate bone rather than skip off, as when hitting bone obliquely. Finally, the meplat (flat end) if bigger, causing more permanent tissue damage and the slug to catch on bone easier.
 
Roscoe: The reason the hardcast load is better is because it will not deform (or very little), even under circumstances that would cause a FMJ lead round to deform. The hardcast is an alloy that is harder than lead and will break through bone rather than deform. Since the edges are harder, it will penetrate bone rather than skip off, as when hitting bone obliquely. Finally, the meplat (flat end) if bigger, causing more permanent tissue damage and the slug to catch on bone easier.
Click to expand...

+1 . . . exactly. Only thing that's a concern is the wider meplat in an autoloader - Will it feed? If so this is a better round than the FMJFP for animals. A bit like the "Hammerhead" .44 magnum loads. A friend uses these for hunting in his 10mm G-20 in which they work fine, but they will not feed in his Delta Elite.
 
Good post Run&Shoot. While I have been considering carrying a firearm to the woods lately, haven't just yet. Chiefly due the reasons you cited.

Moreover, due the weather conditions/damage this last winter (Staircase - fire, Dosewallips - road washout, Elhwha - mud slide, etc. )...

http://www.nps.gov/archive/olym/wic/conditions.htm

... a lot of the Park is currently off limits. It's a damned mess. The alternatives are those areas (National Forest Service lands) in which CCW is allowed and likely to be much more crowded this year.

Speaking of the devil...

Hiked to Bear Camp on the east side of Olympics and got pretty concerned...
Click to expand...

That awoke an old memory as I had been in that area once with my younger son:

Backpacking.gif

That trip must have been a good ~ 10 years ago and a beautiful area to be in. If there is any one place in the Olympics I'd say a body is sure to see black bear, Bear Camp on the Dosewallips River is it as that's how it got its name when the trail was put in there in the early 1900's. As I recall, there were 3 of them lounging around eating berries in the meadow above the trail a good ways from the camp. They left the area when alerted to our presence and we didn't see them again.

What stood out the most about that trip were the deer. They were so starved for salt they wouldn't stay away from us. They waited for us to urinate and as soon as we stood away - BAM! The were licking it up. Never had seen anything like that before.

Back to the subject at hand, I would definitely NOT discourage a body from CCW in the woods where they felt the necessity and safety of it. As Run&Shoot basically said, it's better to be safe than sorry. On National Forest Service lands this year, I'll likely be packing a .45.

Cheers, gents! beerchug.gif
 
Last edited:
+2 with Run&Shoot. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I generally carry a 3" 629 with 250 gr hard cast over 21 gr H4227 when elk hunting in the mountains, as I probably smell tasty while carrying out meat.

Here at home, I load shot caps and .44 special Silver Tips every other chamber while out mushroom hunting, fishing or hiking, you never what kind of snake you might run into.
 
Thank you, everyone, for all the great info. ...and Run&Shoot, thanks for the extensive info and personal accounts.

That would have been ideal country to run into a mamma and cubs with no notice. The creek was loud enough it could mask a lot of noise.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Just like you can NEVER rely on a mechanical device for your safety (i.e. thumb safety), you can't count on the wildlife to ALWAYS recognize you and flee.

Jacka L Ope, you look like one tired hiker, with a hefty load on your back :)

I will probably buy a box of each of those types of ammo, and HOPE that the WFNGC will feed smoothly in my gun. How many rounds do I need to cycle through, in order to be confident that they feed reliably?? 2 or 3? 50? ...

Now, I have to figure out how to carry (only for protection, of course) in a National Park area. Isn't it universally illegal??
 
For what it's worth, friends in the Arkansas Fish and Game commission tell me there is no record anywhere of a black bear sow attacking because someone came between her and her cubs. They tell of trapping cubs and taking them out of the trap with the mother nearby -- she usually runs off, but never attacks.

There have been black bear attacks in Arkansas, but all have been traced to the bear's desire for food.
 
How would you know if you only find pieces of people?

Actually, I think brown bears are more apt to attack with cubs.
Click to expand...

It's very rare to find only pieces of a person after a black bear attack -- but if you only found pieces, that would probably indicate the person was attacked for food.
 
Ok... I have some experience here. The real danger is from Grizzlys and Browns. Cougars can be scared away with a wave of the arms (done that twice), black bears are pussies, usually, and will run when they see you. There isn't much else in the way of non rabid critters that are a threat. But when it comes to the big bears, they really can be dangerous. And, you don't have to get "between" a mother and her cubs... she will charge and kill you if you are in the neighorhood. I have been charged by 4 bears (grizzlys all), and seen 30 or so other Grizzlys that ran or ignored me. I have shot one bear... a black, with a rifle. Seen 2 blacks and one grizzly killed at close range ( all with a .44 magnum). But, for all the times I have been charged, I have either not had a weapon, or I was too 'involved' to fire quickly. Anyone who says that it is safe to hike in the Great Northwest without regard to bears is someone that has not been around.
I admit it, I am a bit scared. I was hiking up through the Mokowanis Valley in Glacier National park in 1969, alone, in the late evening about 9pm (still barely light). The trail was winding up through tall trees, dark, foreboding... perfect bear ambush, I thought. No gun. I was on edge... walked as quietly as possible. Then he was there right in front of me! A toad jumped out into the trail, and I jumped 2 feet. It was the worst fright of my life. I am still angry at that toad. But, I knew one of the two women that were killed in 1967 in Glacier during "The Night of the Grizzlys", up at Granite Park Chalet... she was a fellow Glacier employee.
In New Mexico, in the 1970's I witnessed 2 shootings of bears by the Game and Fish people (I skinned both bears). Both were dropped with .44 magnums (rugers?).
In Alaska I helped a man who had been mauled by a bear at William Henry Bay, while we were on our sailboat. Got him to the hospital at Juneau. All I could think of was ... "this guy was stupid to fish here with all this bear sign around!" (the place was littered with salmon parts and tracks.)
The point? I guess I have a lot of respect for the big bears. I will hike in the back country unarmed, but I think I have a good sense of awareness for what to do. And besides, I have my bells... Lee Davis


Fortunately, I always keep my feathers numbered -Foghorn Leghorn
 
will probably buy a box of each of those types of ammo, and HOPE that the WFNGC will feed smoothly in my gun. How many rounds do I need to cycle through, in order to be confident that they feed reliably?? 2 or 3? 50? ...
Click to expand...
Personally, I would put a box through. But, if they do not feed properly, you could keep one hardcast in the pipe and FMJ in the magazine. That way, you get at least one hardcast shot (folks do that with the P32 and hollowpoints to avoid rimlock). If a bear is coming at you, you probably won't get too many shots off - make the first one count. Or, better yet, sell the .40 buy a 10mm Glock.
 
Thanks roscoe. I bought just one box tonight. I figure there's no need to buy more than that, if I only find out that a whole magazine won't feed properly. If I can put 20 through the gun, I'll probably buy some more. Your idea about having one of the flat nose rounds in the chamber is good, if that's the best I can do.

You mention the 10mm, of which I have always been a fan. I have to add that I am not currently in the market for a new gun, but.... Of the rounds under the .454 Casull, which is the best to have against a charging bear? I'm guessing .44 mag? Is 41 mag much less capable? Where does the 10mm rank relative to those 2? How about .45 vs. .357 mag (which would you choose)?
 
ShooterMcGavin,

I believe Glock warns against non-jacketed ammo in their guns, due to the potential for excessive (unsafe) pressures as the soft lead scrapes off and builds up in Glock barrels, which use polygonal rifling and do not have a fully supported chamber (see the many threads and discussions here and elsewhere on Glock "Kabooms"). This is particularly important with .40s, as the .40 S&W is already a high-pressure round to begin with.

You might want to ensure that your S&W MP40 has no such warning.

Personally, I like the 10mm, a/k/a the .40 +p+ :), as well. DoubleTap makes a good assortment of full-power 10mm ammo, including a nice 200 gr. FMJ load. I like my Glock 20 for hiking: 15+1 rounds of full-power 10mm, plus a 15 round reload, and a round with more kinetic energy at 150 yards than a standard pressure 230gr. .45 ACP has *at the muzzle*!

For more info on the 10mm Glock, see the 10 Ring Forum at GlockTalk:

http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=38

It's quite a lovefest. :)

Stay sharp, and stay safe,
david.
 
David, I have also read quite a bit about Glock's unsupported chamber, and KBs. Did they change the chamber design for the G20, to allow the use of the higher pressure 10mm?? I hate to admit it, but the thought of buying a Glock makes me shudder. I know their reliability is legendary, but the grip and overall feel when shooting the gun... :uhoh: It's just not for me. Even though, I still spend a fair amount of time reading at glocktalk.com.

The M&P40 claims to have a fully supported chamber (no semi-auto is 100% supported), but I will go back and see if there are any warnings with non-jacketed ammo.

Will I run into some serious cleaning headaches when shooting the non-jacketed WFNGC ammo??
 
I've been runnin' around in the backcountry for almost 40 years at this point. Catskills and Adirondacks in NY, Blueridge and the valley in VA, all the hell over West Virginia.

Sometimes I used to carry, sometimes not. I've had any number of encounters with the bigger wildlife and it was usually peaceful enough. One of the notable exceptions was the time I had to shoot an astoundingly aggressive copperhead once in a situation where I couldn't get away and I couldn't drive it off.

That still didn't cause me to carry on a regular basis but then on one of my unarmed trips I was witness to a scene where I had pitched camp waaaaay out in the backcountry at the end of a box canyon. On about 2:00AM this rattletrap 4x4 comes crawling up the valley and into the clearing nearby. Not too long later another one shows up with some more guys and a girl. Fortunately I was back in the woods and brush a bit and had already put out my fire so I was stealthed, but these boys commenced to drinking and doping and carryin' on and eventually to fighting (over the dope and the girl). It actually turned into a running chase via 4x4 out of the valley.

I packed up and as soon as it was light enough to see I got the hell out of there. Having a firearm wouldn't have changed that scene one bit, but would have made me feel an awful lot better about it if they'd started going into the woods for whatever reason because I was certainly "boxed in".

(You can be damned sure I never camped in a similar type of location again)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
  • Locked
Hiking Near the US/Mexican Border - What Gun?
2 3 4 5
Replies
107
Views
7K
glocksrfugly
G
C
  • Locked
.45 ACP and 9mm for defense while hiking
2
Replies
28
Views
12K
harley
H
SpruceSniper
  • Locked
The 5.56 CAN take down a grizzly bear!
2
Replies
26
Views
14K
cpask8
C
J
  • Locked
Hiking and firearms
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Jaco
J
S
  • Locked
Better woods carry - heavy .40 or heavy .357mag?
2 3
Replies
60
Views
3K
MCgunner
M
Back
Top