someguy2800
Member
That’s one gun from one manufacturer
Will .277 Sig Fury/6.8x51mm catch on?
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That’s one gun from one manufacturer
Absolutely. And that manufacturer, with their proprietary cartridge, that remains to be seen whether any other maker will make any at all unless the military does in fact accept the cartridge (not a given at all), offers exactly 2 firearms in this caliber. One is a $8K unicorn, and it remains to be seen if those are going to be able to be found at basically any price. the other is a bolt action that is currently going for around $1,700.
Both have 16" barrels.
See previous "wait and see",
etc
someguy2800
Member
Write a letter to your manufacturer of choice and tell them I’ve got $1000 hidden under my pillow just waiting for someone to make a bolt action in this new wiz bang wonder cartridge with a XX” long barrel and I sure hope it’s you. Then wait 2-5 years.
JCooperfan1911
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Then what would be the point? The 80K pounds per inches of squared measured pressure is an impressive load.
I've only been able to find one article about handloading the .277 Fury, I believe they mention using steel casings for it to get the 80k psi pressure. It might be a bit before anyone releases information on handloading for it, if it'll even be possible to match the same performance.
I've told several makers that, if they make a rifle in one of two calibers that have been around for years- both cartridges over 40 years old- that I would buy one. No takers yet. I want a bolt-action .454 Casull upper for an AR-15, for example. I think a 9" upper would be extremely popular, legal for hunting in even straight-wall states, and even legal in repressive states that don't allow semi automatics for hunting.
(20-round PMAG holds 9 .454 or .45 Colt cartridges, if you were wondering.)
BreechFace
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https://uintahprecision.com/product/up-15-complete-rifle/
I would go with 450 Bushmaster but if one already has 454 Casull ties then I could see the appeal.
But his point still stands.
I have hundreds of Casull- now worth over $2 each- and close to a thousand hot .45 Colt.
Crosshair
Member
I don't see it getting far. It's window dressing on the problem of soilders being overloaded.
The British said it best in the mid-1800s when they studied the issue: "A soilders ability to fight is inverse to the amount of weight they are carrying."
The problem is politicians and failed strategies. It won't be solved with a new rifle or cartridge. I'll leave it at that for now.
The British said it best in the mid-1800s when they studied the issue: "A soilders ability to fight is inverse to the amount of weight they are carrying."
The problem is politicians and failed strategies. It won't be solved with a new rifle or cartridge. I'll leave it at that for now.
someguy2800
Member
The problem would be the bolt face diameter. That would be fantastic though and I would buy one for the right price. this doesn’t help you use your brass but the ballistic equivalent to that already exists and you can buy one. It is called 45 VRAP and it is a 460 S&W with a rimless case. Starline makes factory brass for it and if you send Mag Dog Weapons Systems an email and 500 of your dollars they will build you one.
https://www.68forums.com/threads/45-vrap-pistol-build.65305/
That would be a wonderful loophole to Minnesota’s shotgun deer zones. The lower half of minnesota won’t let you use a rifle, even a straight wall one, but it will allow you to use a handgun, including an AR with a pistol brace.
JeeperCreeper
Member
Choices... Manufacturers like volume. Consumers like variety.
You have the cheap rounds available for plinking and hot stuff for when you need hot stuff.
Literally like every cartridge does this... You have cheap bulk 7.62x51 and great .308 hunting loads.
I also shoot .38 special out of my .357 revolvers for range fun.
Let's do a mental exercise, say you go out and buy their new MCX Spear. They give you two boxes of FURY ammo. Considering the hybrid ammo isn't up to crazy production, that hybrid case requires extra machining.
So that rifle is a paperweight with 40 rounds. And if you do find another box, I would bet it would be $4/Rd or more if it ever hits full production. That's just a guess because it's a multiple piece case.
For people who buy that gun, they will want to shoot it.
So what better way than to pump out simpler and lower pressure range ammo? .277 FURY lite with all brass that performs like 7mm-08.
I don't understand why people keep @-ing me over a wild "I guess they could" statement.
Edit: I have no dog in the fight, but the whole "point" of cheaper underpowered ammo is to get a consumer buy-in for a platform.
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That's a completely valid point, and I'm sure some- many- folks would be delighted to have cheaper, lower recoil ammo that was still plenty hot enough to smite the largest whitetail to ever trod the forest. The difference, that concerns some of us, is the liability. You can't chamber a (higher pressure) .454 in a .45 Colt. You can't load a .357 into a .38 Special...but some damn fool definitely will chase those 80K pressure loads with his brass casings, if they're available. Sure, it'll be his fault, but that doesn't mean it won't equal bad publicity, and a lawsuit.
John
JeeperCreeper
Member
I can definitely see that when it comes to reloaders.
I would hope that actions of any firearms that may/can/will be made in 277 Fury have actions strong enough to run max loads.
I'm trying to think of parallels in the market that already occur... 45-70 with it's various loads, 45 Colt with it's "Ruger only". People load things too hot on a common basis.
I know bad press ain't good, especially for SIG, but I would think as long as the action is tough, of someone melts down their casings by improperly loading, it might be a rough day for them but not their lawyer.
I read, don't know how accurate, that Fury dimensions are similar to 308.
So if that's even close to true, only a matter of time before some loader gets ahold of 308 and forms/necks it to Fury to feed their $8k SIG SPEAR.
someguy2800
Member
Even if they don’t manufacture brass cases for it, any competent reloader could just form brass for it, but that is one more step removed from liability.
I’ve been curious what they are quoting the army for ammo cost vs what it will be on retail shelves.
I’ve been curious what they are quoting the army for ammo cost vs what it will be on retail shelves.
FL-NC
Member
How many new firearm calibers in the last 30 years or so have had true "staying power", and how many have faded away into obscurity, and as a result become difficult (or near impossible) to find, and expensive if found? Its nearly impossible to find common calibers even from "off" brands in any quantity without going into credit card debt right now. I paid almost $40 for a box of 243 just to hunt this season, and they weren't even premium rounds. Sorry for the negative outlook, but I really feel this way.
Kind of why I'm glad 6 or 7 years ago, each payday I made it a point to buy at least one 20rd box of .308 hunting ammo. So I still have almost 200 rounds left, mostly Federal Power-Shok.
With that said, there's only a handful of hand loaders that would even form their own brass. Whether it's because of the cost or the lack of knowledge to do it and do it competently, lack of room to do it, or what have ya. Cost of ammo will eventually go down, but there has to be enough manufacturers to make it and there has to be enough rifles on the market for them to consider the expense of doing it.
With that said, there's only a handful of hand loaders that would even form their own brass. Whether it's because of the cost or the lack of knowledge to do it and do it competently, lack of room to do it, or what have ya. Cost of ammo will eventually go down, but there has to be enough manufacturers to make it and there has to be enough rifles on the market for them to consider the expense of doing it.
Speedo66
Member
Should be a nice partner for the equally high pressure, brand new, and barely tested .30 Super Carry.
If the military doesn’t adopt this, I see it as a non starter in the civilian market. Good luck finding ammo down the road for any existing guns.
Well, Sig says they are all in, and will go ahead, whether the mil adopts, or not.
30 Supe is rifle pressure. This is... something else.
John
There are a lot of very intelligent replies in this thread, so I have little to add. I am not an early adopter, this cartridge is a big change from the normal, with steel case head and extreme pressures. And, I am scared of the pressures. The slope of the pressure curve is exponential.
Al Barltett: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."
One way to visualize this, is who far would you go in 30 steps, if the distance you stride each step doubles. In terms of meters, first step, 1 meter. Second step 2 meters, then 4, then 8, then 16, 32, 64, etc.
By the time you take your 30th step you could circumnavigate the globe 26 times!
I think a cartridge operating at a mean pressure of 80,000 psia (plus or minus 20%) is way up there on the slope of the pressure curve. Remember those old driver education films titled "Speed Kills!"? I have a feeling a film could be made titled "Pressure Kills!". Things just go bad quicker, the higher the pressure, and for something operating at 80 K psia, I don't have a lot of confidence there is much margin for error.
Looking at the data for the SIG Fury, a 150 grain bullet is moving 3120 fps at 100 yards out of a 24 inch barrel. That is faster than I can push a 150 out of my 270 Win's at the muzzle, so that bullet is really moving. I am sure a case will be made that at 1500 or 2000 yards, or 1000 miles, the trajectory is a flat line. And that is so nice, except few can hold and hit anything at those distances due to poor marksmanship and wind movement. Hitting is not deterministic. You cannot buy hits with more money, and you cannot make mother earth to cooperate when the lady is not in the mood.
They have not addressed barrel life, have they? If my F class friends are shooting barrels out, around 1000 rounds, anyone think this will be better? By the time you have finished load development you better be ordering a new barrel, as you are going to be needed one soon.
While the pockets of taxpayers is infinitely deep, and thusly the Federal Government and the Military can burn money as if in a wildfire, individual's budgets are not nearly as expansive.
Al Barltett: "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function."
One way to visualize this, is who far would you go in 30 steps, if the distance you stride each step doubles. In terms of meters, first step, 1 meter. Second step 2 meters, then 4, then 8, then 16, 32, 64, etc.
By the time you take your 30th step you could circumnavigate the globe 26 times!
I think a cartridge operating at a mean pressure of 80,000 psia (plus or minus 20%) is way up there on the slope of the pressure curve. Remember those old driver education films titled "Speed Kills!"? I have a feeling a film could be made titled "Pressure Kills!". Things just go bad quicker, the higher the pressure, and for something operating at 80 K psia, I don't have a lot of confidence there is much margin for error.
Looking at the data for the SIG Fury, a 150 grain bullet is moving 3120 fps at 100 yards out of a 24 inch barrel. That is faster than I can push a 150 out of my 270 Win's at the muzzle, so that bullet is really moving. I am sure a case will be made that at 1500 or 2000 yards, or 1000 miles, the trajectory is a flat line. And that is so nice, except few can hold and hit anything at those distances due to poor marksmanship and wind movement. Hitting is not deterministic. You cannot buy hits with more money, and you cannot make mother earth to cooperate when the lady is not in the mood.
They have not addressed barrel life, have they? If my F class friends are shooting barrels out, around 1000 rounds, anyone think this will be better? By the time you have finished load development you better be ordering a new barrel, as you are going to be needed one soon.
While the pockets of taxpayers is infinitely deep, and thusly the Federal Government and the Military can burn money as if in a wildfire, individual's budgets are not nearly as expansive.
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someguy2800
Member
That's a very interesting video.
I am not highly educated on the subject of barrel life as I am not a particularly high volume shooter, but I recall reading an article on Accurate Shooter where they were trying to quantify what affected throat erosion in match rifles, and what they determined was that throat erosion did not correlate to either muzzle velocity or pressure, but rather it could be predicted by a ratio of the grains of powder burned per shot to the diameter of the barrel throat, meaning for instance that a 308 has a much longer throat life than a 243 because they are both burning 45 grains of powder but forcing it through a much smaller circumference. Now of course all their testing was done in normal calibers that run at 60,000 psi or less, so what affect increasing the pressure another 20,000 psi has I couldn't possibly know, but if that is true that it is the mass of powder that matters and not pressure or velocity, that would suggest that this would have longer barrel life than 270 win or 6.5 creedmoor which we know are both very good. If I had to make a guess the higher pressure and thus temperature will make it worse, so probably somewhere between 6.5 creedmoor and 243 winchester, but I don't think it will be anything like a true barrel burner like a 264 win.
someguy2800
Member
I looked and I found the calculator that I was recalling above and I was mistaken, it does have a variable in it for pressure. I downloaded the calculator and this is what I get. Take this with a grain of salt because of course this is brand new territory and this hasn't been validated I would assume against an actual rifle running at 80,000 psi
243 win
6.5 creedmoor
6.8x51
264 win
243 win
6.5 creedmoor
6.8x51
264 win
Years ago I looked at information on pre WW2 anti tank round experiments. One experiment had a round which operated at high pressure, and the barrel interior was tapered. So the round swaged on its way out. The experiment was a failure because barrel life was short.
There is no doubt the more hot, high pressure powder is blown down the barrel, the shorter the barrel life. And there is no doubt, given the same powder charge, blowing the same amount of hot, high pressure powder down a smaller hole, the shorter the barrel life.
Gotta tell you, 22lr match barrels, operating a low pressure, and with a lead bullet. last 60 to 100 times longer than a 223 Rem barrel. There has to be a correlation between barrel life and pressure. Maybe its in the flame temperature.
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