Kaylee
Member
Funny!
But let's watch the innuendo guys. Gramma rule and all that.
-K
Will a .308 do an engine block?
- Thread starter twoblink
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Funny!
But let's watch the innuendo guys. Gramma rule and all that.
-K
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Grammaw's back. 3,000 fershlugginer miles in the last six daze!
I know that an '06 handload penetrates 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards. I'd guess that a perpendicular hit on cast iron would do severe damage, from a .308. Even if there weren't a clean hole, there would be damaging cracking into an oil gallery or a water passage.
, ArtShaiVong
Member
Come on! Dont be dense! The second rocket stage kicks in right at about 150 yards!
Poodleshooter
Member
My brother in law's old chevy cavalier died rather treacherously, stranding him,IIRC. The head was removed when it went to the junkyard, in anticipation of an upcoming www.ar15.com machinegun shoot. The head became a subsequent target for our anger with vehicles. It's amazing how brittle that aluminum is
Of course, the old woody station wagon that some generous soul brought to that shoot (last April,IIRC) was even more fun to shoot-till it caught fire and burned after the Ma Deuce took it on. They just don't build station wagons to resist .50 API the way they used to!
twoblink
Member
I have all but standarized on the 308 for my rifle needs (only gonna keep probably 2 calibers for rifles; .22LR and .308Win)
So needed to know if the 308 is versatile enough for your urban as well as your wildlife needs...
Will it shoot through a regular car brake disk??
So needed to know if the 308 is versatile enough for your urban as well as your wildlife needs...
Will it shoot through a regular car brake disk??
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Aw, c'mon, twoblink. How would anybody know? Ya gotta get past the wheel and the caliper, among other problems...And if a car is moving, that's a small target...
A .308 will take out anything likely to show up in some urban HooHah. Your own skill and "hittability" is far more important than what sort of metal a .308 will punch through. (Unless you're gonna use old brake discs to line the walls of your house. )
I still say that if a fella is really, really worried about all this urban stuff, he oughta move. Now.
, Art
A .308 will take out anything likely to show up in some urban HooHah. Your own skill and "hittability" is far more important than what sort of metal a .308 will punch through. (Unless you're gonna use old brake discs to line the walls of your house.
)I still say that if a fella is really, really worried about all this urban stuff, he oughta move. Now.
, ArtAndrew Wyatt
Member
.308 is no great shakes as an AMR.
I'd shoot at the driver instead of the brakes if i were being run down by a car.
I'd shoot at the driver instead of the brakes if i were being run down by a car.
twoblink
Member
You got me all wrong Art!
I'm just wondering if the perp is hiding behind the wheel-well of a car; if I can penetrate the brakedisks..
Also, I wanted to know if the cops are carrying .308's and shooting at me, if hiding behind an engine block and/or a brakedisk is a good idea..
I don't think a .223 will do either...
Yeah, PRK questions.. I know I know...
I'm just wondering if the perp is hiding behind the wheel-well of a car; if I can penetrate the brakedisks..
Also, I wanted to know if the cops are carrying .308's and shooting at me, if hiding behind an engine block and/or a brakedisk is a good idea..
I don't think a .223 will do either...
Yeah, PRK questions.. I know I know...
WonderNine
member
No, actually it would just start running crappy.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
twoblink, if a perp were hiding behind the wheel, I'd either go into "wait" mode or possibly try flanking him. Alternatively, try for a position where you can shoot under the car and possibly through the tire. Seems to me it's pretty much a truly tactical decision...
And, hey! What if it's your car?
, Art
And, hey! What if it's your car?
, ArtShaiVong
Member
Whats all the fuss?
Just throw a frag over the car!
Just throw a frag over the car!
A rifle bullet normally leaves the barrel with a yaw, so that the center of the base is actually rotating around the axis of the bullet point. This causes less penetration at short distances (below 50-75 yards) because the bullet tends to tip on strking a target. The bullet will actually have more penetration after it stabilizes.
This is hardly a new discovery, it has been known since the earliest days of elongated bullets, and has been proven by setting up paper targets about 10 feet apart for 100 yards or so. The "keyholes" of a yawing bullet are very evident at short ranges.
Since at least part of this can be due to an uneven muzzle, and/or an uneven bullet base both should be examined closely when maximum accuracy is desired.
The same thing happens with pistol bullets, but it is less obvious at shorter ranges with short bullets.
To answer the question, a 7.62 NATO AP will shoot through both sides of an engine block unless it hits the thick part of the piston. Guaranteed to stop the engine. Anyone doubting this, let me know. I will provide the rifle and ammo, you provide the car.
Jim
This is hardly a new discovery, it has been known since the earliest days of elongated bullets, and has been proven by setting up paper targets about 10 feet apart for 100 yards or so. The "keyholes" of a yawing bullet are very evident at short ranges.
Since at least part of this can be due to an uneven muzzle, and/or an uneven bullet base both should be examined closely when maximum accuracy is desired.
The same thing happens with pistol bullets, but it is less obvious at shorter ranges with short bullets.
To answer the question, a 7.62 NATO AP will shoot through both sides of an engine block unless it hits the thick part of the piston. Guaranteed to stop the engine. Anyone doubting this, let me know. I will provide the rifle and ammo, you provide the car.
Jim
Marshall
Member
Twoblink, are you just messin with us? Sittin back and watchin us answer these questions and rolling on the floor laughing?
If not, what are you doing that makes you have to worry about the need of hiding behind engine blocks and brake drums/disks because of LEO's firing at you? Stop doing whatever that may be and you won't need to ask this!
Never mind, don't answer the last question!
If not, what are you doing that makes you have to worry about the need of hiding behind engine blocks and brake drums/disks because of LEO's firing at you? Stop doing whatever that may be and you won't need to ask this!
Never mind, don't answer the last question!
twoblink
Member
Marshall,
It's always good to know what you are up against..
To answer your question more thoroughly..
I have decided to "standarize" on the .308Win as my rifle caliber. Reasons? NATO, cheap to shoot, and good selection of hunting ammo (Nosler, Bear Claw etc..) as far as practice target round, hunting, and "cheap" round to shoot. (I got rid of my SKS, and so no more 7.62x39's for me) only 308's.
So I'm wondering if in Skunk's world, the SHTF, will the 308 hold up in Urban warfare? How about if I'm up against a 308? Would I be safe hiding behind a wheel well, with a brake disk as protection?
If a bad guy is driving towards me, if my shot dips (miscalculation of distance on my part and the bullet drops a bit) and I don't hit the guy and it hits the engine block, (say at 100 - 200 yards) will it stop the engine or will the car keep driving full steam towards me??
Questions I thought I'd get answers to...
It's always good to know what you are up against..
To answer your question more thoroughly..
I have decided to "standarize" on the .308Win as my rifle caliber. Reasons? NATO, cheap to shoot, and good selection of hunting ammo (Nosler, Bear Claw etc..) as far as practice target round, hunting, and "cheap" round to shoot. (I got rid of my SKS, and so no more 7.62x39's for me) only 308's.
So I'm wondering if in Skunk's world, the SHTF, will the 308 hold up in Urban warfare? How about if I'm up against a 308? Would I be safe hiding behind a wheel well, with a brake disk as protection?
If a bad guy is driving towards me, if my shot dips (miscalculation of distance on my part and the bullet drops a bit) and I don't hit the guy and it hits the engine block, (say at 100 - 200 yards) will it stop the engine or will the car keep driving full steam towards me??
Questions I thought I'd get answers to...
Fish Springs
Member
30+ years ago It was not un-common to purchase '06 "practice" ammo and find a few rounds of black tipped, AP in some of the boxes. So the question was--just what will the 150 FMJ penetrate compared to the AP? In some places, a 20 gallon trash can full of loose rounds could be seen with a fair number of black tipped '06 in the mix.
About this itme (it was still legal to buy mail order guns) Some friends happend upon a Chevy dumped at an abandoned gravel pit frequented by shooters prior to deer season.
I am told that 30/06 AP will penetrate the block, axle, and brake drum of a 60's vintage Chevy. The same car and pieces caused the 150 FMJ to rivet and drop to the ground after passing through the brake drum and hitting the cast iron V-8 engine block. Fired against the 350 CID cast iron block, the 150 FMJs would take pretty large chunks out of the block and depart at un-predictable angles. The AP would go from one side of the car to the other at nearly any angle of fire.
I am told that the '06 AP was very imressive as the round shed its copper jacket coming out of the brake drum on its way into the engine block--many steel to steel sparks were made to light up the evening.
While not scientific evidence: I'd not want to try hiding behind any part of a car if there was the slightest possibility of some .30 cal AP being in the mix. Personally I'd not want to try and hide behind a car while some one is shooting a .308 with FMJ milliary ball it. The odds may favor the shooter. Also, body pannels are not cover
About this itme (it was still legal to buy mail order guns) Some friends happend upon a Chevy dumped at an abandoned gravel pit frequented by shooters prior to deer season.
I am told that 30/06 AP will penetrate the block, axle, and brake drum of a 60's vintage Chevy. The same car and pieces caused the 150 FMJ to rivet and drop to the ground after passing through the brake drum and hitting the cast iron V-8 engine block. Fired against the 350 CID cast iron block, the 150 FMJs would take pretty large chunks out of the block and depart at un-predictable angles. The AP would go from one side of the car to the other at nearly any angle of fire.
I am told that the '06 AP was very imressive as the round shed its copper jacket coming out of the brake drum on its way into the engine block--many steel to steel sparks were made to light up the evening.
While not scientific evidence: I'd not want to try hiding behind any part of a car if there was the slightest possibility of some .30 cal AP being in the mix. Personally I'd not want to try and hide behind a car while some one is shooting a .308 with FMJ milliary ball it. The odds may favor the shooter. Also, body pannels are not cover
Uncle Ethan
Member
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
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- 156
AP Ammo
I have a nice stash of 30-06 AP stored, but haven't found any in 7.62 NATO- maybe I ought to pull a few hundred bullets and reload them into 7.62 NATO- but I don't know the powder charge. AP sounds like the thing to have.
I have a nice stash of 30-06 AP stored, but haven't found any in 7.62 NATO- maybe I ought to pull a few hundred bullets and reload them into 7.62 NATO- but I don't know the powder charge. AP sounds like the thing to have.
abaddon
Member
can lowly citizens still buy AP ammo?
twoblink
Member
I'm wondering if something like a softpoint will release energy into an engine block faster, I don't think penetration is a that great vs. energy dump, as I think rapid energy dump will shatter cast iron, or fragment aluminum..
ShaiVong
Member
Not as I understand it. I'm sorry. The Government does not trust you. I know, its a shock.
New guy here, after reading the above thread I have a question about loading your bullets backwards. As funny as it sounds I have been told by people that are supposed to be in a position to know that if you load a typical 150 grain .30 cal bullet in backwards it has much greater penetrating properties on hardened targets. I've been reloading for years and have yet to try this one out. Has anyone here tried it or heard of it and if so what do you think? Reality or just another piece of gun nut urban folk lore?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Rule .308, this was a common practice in the 1930s, during the Depression, to make hunting loads from GI ammo. The base has a lot of lead exposed, and would open up in dramatic fashion.
Some would hacksaw the nose from a GI bullet. Sometimes a big mistake, as the lead core could blow out and leave the jacket in the barrel. The next shot ruined the barrel.
Playing around on 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards, long ago, I learned that GI Ball ammo wouldn't fully penetrate, but max-load handloads would blow through, leaving a 3/4" hole.
Art
Some would hacksaw the nose from a GI bullet. Sometimes a big mistake, as the lead core could blow out and leave the jacket in the barrel. The next shot ruined the barrel.
Playing around on 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards, long ago, I learned that GI Ball ammo wouldn't fully penetrate, but max-load handloads would blow through, leaving a 3/4" hole.
Art
44 Dan
Member
We took an old disc brake rotor from a 3/4 ton 4x4 to test the penetration of some Hot Shot SS109 (223). After that fun I tried some 7.62 ball. The South African 308 ball ammo was far superior. The 308 would make passes right through the rotor when solid hits were made. Likewise hits with the AP 223 would only get 70% penetration at best.
Not to start any caliber wars because I'm sure there are other brands of 223 that would perform better. Either of the two would make short work of a cast engine block.
This test was done at 75yds. I have another rotor and will see what happens at 300-600yd range with the 308.
I'll Let Ya'll Know, 44 Dan
Not to start any caliber wars because I'm sure there are other brands of 223 that would perform better. Either of the two would make short work of a cast engine block.
This test was done at 75yds. I have another rotor and will see what happens at 300-600yd range with the 308.
I'll Let Ya'll Know, 44 Dan
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