twoblink
Member
What's the smallest caliber that is able to penetrate an engine block? Will a .223 work?
A 308 should be ok right?
A 308 should be ok right?
Engine block question
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C.R.Sam
Moderator Emeritus
Break water jacket....no sweat.
Instantly disable the engine different colored horse.
Too many variables.
Sam
Instantly disable the engine different colored horse.
Too many variables.
Sam
twoblink
Member
But I assume that most pistol calibers don't have a chance against say.. a V8 small block right?
Guess that depends on the circumstance and what you mean by penetrate.
A 223 will punch through the water jacket of most engines, rendering it dead (loss of coolant) in fairly short manner. And a short-range direct hit will get into a cylinder. But what does that 223 or 308 round have to punch through (body work, chassis and other items in the way) to get to the block? If disabling an engine is the intent, there are lots of soft targets (22LR will pop a radiator or drain an oil pan or blast the electronics).
Also, some blocks are aluminum and many are iron.
If bringing the whole thing to a screeching halt *right now* is the question, shot placement or 50BMG are the answers.
A 223 will punch through the water jacket of most engines, rendering it dead (loss of coolant) in fairly short manner. And a short-range direct hit will get into a cylinder. But what does that 223 or 308 round have to punch through (body work, chassis and other items in the way) to get to the block? If disabling an engine is the intent, there are lots of soft targets (22LR will pop a radiator or drain an oil pan or blast the electronics).
Also, some blocks are aluminum and many are iron.
If bringing the whole thing to a screeching halt *right now* is the question, shot placement or 50BMG are the answers.
Mike Irwin
Member
A LOT would also depend on the design of the bullet.
A .375 H&H with an all lead bullet would likely just splatter, where-as a .308 with a penetrator round would likely do some serious damage.
A .375 H&H with an all lead bullet would likely just splatter, where-as a .308 with a penetrator round would likely do some serious damage.
Black Dragon
Member
There is a book out in the world call..... "Combat sniper loads"..... I think.
This book says that most "Hunting" rounds will do little to an engine block.
Crack water jackets and blow off belts and what not but it won't "Stop" the
engine quick. It goes into some detail on bullet construction and weights,
then talks about min distance. At one point it talks about using a solid
Brass bullet in a .338 will crack the block and cause loose of fluid and then
the vehicle dies.
Like LarryW said, 50 BMG.
This book says that most "Hunting" rounds will do little to an engine block.
Crack water jackets and blow off belts and what not but it won't "Stop" the
engine quick. It goes into some detail on bullet construction and weights,
then talks about min distance. At one point it talks about using a solid
Brass bullet in a .338 will crack the block and cause loose of fluid and then
the vehicle dies.
Like LarryW said, 50 BMG.
Black Snowman
Member
Mikes right, AP goes a long way to increasing penetration. For your best bet you want the biggest meanest AP, HEAT, or HEDP round you can get your hands on. To EVENTUALLY stop a .223 penetrator would do the trick but it would almost certainly take more than one shot.
Kaylee
Member
out of curiosity -- is the intent of the question "what does it take to reliably stop a running engine" or is it "what rounds does an engine block cover me from if I'm hiding behind it from incoming fire?"
and how does that affect the answer? Deferring to the resident experts here..
and how does that affect the answer? Deferring to the resident experts here..
Keith
Member
A .22 to the drivers head will disable an automobile immediately.
Keith
Keith
DMK
Member
I'd think that a well placed .308 or 7.62x54R would stop most modern car engines fairly soon due to loss of oil if you hit the crank case. (keep in mind, most car engines these days are 4cyl or V6 and mounted sideways).
I also think that there's a pretty good chance that the engines would also stop the bullet if you were seeking cover from the side of the car(the bullet would have to go through the engine lengthwise).
Edward429451
member
I've blown 1" holes in old steel tire rims with heavy lead 44 maggies. Mike's post would seem to indicate that I could not?? Engine blocks are thicker granted, but I think I prolly could get inside a block with a hard cast 44.
Be interesting to test.
Be interesting to test.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Mike's post would seem to indicate that I could not??"
No, Mike's post does NOT indicate that.
"Engine blocks are thicker granted..."
Part of the process of penetrating anything is deforming it, stretching it to the point where the metal actually fails.
That's why you can blow through a steel tire rim -- the rim isn't that thick.
If you hit the engine block over a thin area, such as the water jacket, you're going to punch it fairly easily.
If you hit it over a more solid spot, you may not be able to do anything appreciable to it.
No, Mike's post does NOT indicate that.
"Engine blocks are thicker granted..."
Part of the process of penetrating anything is deforming it, stretching it to the point where the metal actually fails.
That's why you can blow through a steel tire rim -- the rim isn't that thick.
If you hit the engine block over a thin area, such as the water jacket, you're going to punch it fairly easily.
If you hit it over a more solid spot, you may not be able to do anything appreciable to it.
Black Snowman
Member
Even the thin parts of a water jacket on the average small block are about 2-4 times thicker than a steel wheel. My only direct experiance penetrating iron/steel was with my Dad's .300 Wby Mag. On a 1/4" steel plate the full house Nosler partition blew about a .60" diameter hole in the plate and the steel tube behind it was painted with with a thin layer of lead. No copper was ever found.
This was a perfect perpendicular hit. When there was more than a few degrees of angle the rounds just deflected off.
The Weatherby has about 4000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, the .44 Mag about 1200 ft-lbs. With a FMJ in an ideal hit (thin area, perpendicular with no previous obstructions) the .44 may penetrate. For a sure thing, you need a LOT more gun and the right bullet design (IE AP).
Straight lead would have the best luck on the induction or cooling system. Hit a carb or fuel injection rail and the car would stop quick.
Even with armor piercing ammo in big rounds an engine would provide decent protection because anything getting through is likely going to be deflected a lot and hopefully miss.
This was a perfect perpendicular hit. When there was more than a few degrees of angle the rounds just deflected off.
The Weatherby has about 4000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, the .44 Mag about 1200 ft-lbs. With a FMJ in an ideal hit (thin area, perpendicular with no previous obstructions) the .44 may penetrate. For a sure thing, you need a LOT more gun and the right bullet design (IE AP).
Straight lead would have the best luck on the induction or cooling system. Hit a carb or fuel injection rail and the car would stop quick.
Even with armor piercing ammo in big rounds an engine would provide decent protection because anything getting through is likely going to be deflected a lot and hopefully miss.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Heck, it's no different from shooting Bambi; it all depends on where you hit.
In a front-wheel drive, if you shoot from dead in front, any serious .30 ought to go right through an alloy block and bugger a piston.
From the side, a bullet could easily deflect off a V8. Could mess up part of the valve train, of course, and possibly continue into the intake manifold.
Hitting a major ignition component or any of the fuel metering would mean instant stop.
If you're really familiar with the car's layout, go for the battery and really mess up the computer.
, Art
In a front-wheel drive, if you shoot from dead in front, any serious .30 ought to go right through an alloy block and bugger a piston.
From the side, a bullet could easily deflect off a V8. Could mess up part of the valve train, of course, and possibly continue into the intake manifold.
Hitting a major ignition component or any of the fuel metering would mean instant stop.
If you're really familiar with the car's layout, go for the battery and really mess up the computer.
, ArtShaiVong
Member
Engine? Go rocket propelled there skippy!
I wouldn't recommend anything less then the 66mm HEAT warhead in an M72A3 LAW to stop a moving vehicle. Next on the list would be .50 BMG or 40mm HEDP.
There are a lot of rifle calibers that will break water jackets etc. But you also have to penetrate sheet metal and other things to get to the engine. Nothing smaller then ma duce should be counted on to stop a moving vehicle.
Jeff
There are a lot of rifle calibers that will break water jackets etc. But you also have to penetrate sheet metal and other things to get to the engine. Nothing smaller then ma duce should be counted on to stop a moving vehicle.
Jeff
I've thought this one over a couple times.
As Art said, gots to know your lay outs.
Trying to punch through a unibody construction vehicle from the side to nail the engine? It's gonna do who knows what to the bullet, if it's lead then the bullet is likely to begin to delaminate/fragment upon entering the first layer of sheet metal and progressively get worse from there. If it's a true AP bullet, who knows what kind of deflections might take place as it penetrates unibody construction while trying to do battle with things like steering pumps, exhaust manifold, and then get to the block.
For a front wheel drive car, going through the front of the car putting a shot square through the radiator aught to do tons of damage. Radiator would have very little effect on the round and a transverse mounted engine has either heads or cylinder walls in line with the radiator behind that. Would love to see a Neon eat a 30-06AP round or nastier when fired from straight on...
Lots of variables....
Personally? If the car is stopped I'd favor putting two or three rounds from the most potent thing you gots access to right through the front wheels with the intent of disrupting the brake rotor and the brake caliper.
Just one or two holes through the rotor are going to cause VERY wonky things to happen as said ventilated rotor has the brakes applied to it, if it's a serious caliber just two well placed shots are likely to cause the rotor to fracture. Ever see what happens to the idiots in the police chases down in LA when their wheels stop working as wheels? Not to mention if the brakes are totally gone thanks to having bled out vital fluid, said driver will probably wreck the vehicle when they try to stop.
I've got a nasty little load I was gonna try on an engine some time back where I found an abandoned vehicle out in a field, low and behold by the time I returned a week or two later somebody had yanked the engine on that rig. It was an OLD in line 6 from some old truck that looked to be a good 50+ years old, it was nothing but a rolling chassis with old rusted inoperable engine.
What round would I have tested? My 300WinMag rounds using 163grn WWII AP projectiles loaded to what is likely 3100+ fps, same rounds after a bit of load development are defeating a 1 1/4 inch steel plate.
Chairborne ranger returns to his post... keep up the good hypotheticals gentlemen! Over and out...
As Art said, gots to know your lay outs.
Trying to punch through a unibody construction vehicle from the side to nail the engine? It's gonna do who knows what to the bullet, if it's lead then the bullet is likely to begin to delaminate/fragment upon entering the first layer of sheet metal and progressively get worse from there. If it's a true AP bullet, who knows what kind of deflections might take place as it penetrates unibody construction while trying to do battle with things like steering pumps, exhaust manifold, and then get to the block.
For a front wheel drive car, going through the front of the car putting a shot square through the radiator aught to do tons of damage. Radiator would have very little effect on the round and a transverse mounted engine has either heads or cylinder walls in line with the radiator behind that. Would love to see a Neon eat a 30-06AP round or nastier when fired from straight on...
Lots of variables....
Personally? If the car is stopped I'd favor putting two or three rounds from the most potent thing you gots access to right through the front wheels with the intent of disrupting the brake rotor and the brake caliper.
Just one or two holes through the rotor are going to cause VERY wonky things to happen as said ventilated rotor has the brakes applied to it, if it's a serious caliber just two well placed shots are likely to cause the rotor to fracture. Ever see what happens to the idiots in the police chases down in LA when their wheels stop working as wheels? Not to mention if the brakes are totally gone thanks to having bled out vital fluid, said driver will probably wreck the vehicle when they try to stop.
I've got a nasty little load I was gonna try on an engine some time back where I found an abandoned vehicle out in a field, low and behold by the time I returned a week or two later somebody had yanked the engine on that rig. It was an OLD in line 6 from some old truck that looked to be a good 50+ years old, it was nothing but a rolling chassis with old rusted inoperable engine.
What round would I have tested? My 300WinMag rounds using 163grn WWII AP projectiles loaded to what is likely 3100+ fps, same rounds after a bit of load development are defeating a 1 1/4 inch steel plate.
Chairborne ranger returns to his post... keep up the good hypotheticals gentlemen! Over and out...
Hkmp5sd
Member
If you can track down a copy, there is an old video called Deadly Weapons where they demonstrate this. They also shot through an automobile gas tank with tracers to see if it would blow up. It didn't even catch fire.
Tracers through the gas tank on the first shot, might be a situation where the air to fuel ratio isn't right to ignite. Let some of that gas pour onto the ground though then send a tracer skipping off the puddle below the tank and I bet fireworks would ensue.
HankL
Member
May I ask what type of engine block and what it is located in? Hard AP rounds, solids and Partition type bullets in that order will penetrate metal more readily than softer constructed rounds. If you want to do up a Kia engine sitting on an engine stand I would imagine the .223 even with 55 gr. FMJ would do it great harm. A cast iron diesel engine from a vintage truck or tractor sitting on an engine stand might take a pretty good wacking.
When in doubt a 5" 50 Cal. firing AP should do the job unless said engine is sitting inside some pretty serious armor.
twoblink
Member
I recall shooting at an old V8 block with my friend's Mauser in 8mm, and I was surprised at the amount of damage it DIDN'T do..
That said, the question was to answer two questions:
#1) What would it take to stop a car fairly quickly..
#2) If I were to hide behind an engine block, how well protected am I?
Jeff, Art..
I saw a pic of a 30-06 it had a caption that said "30-06 Penatrator" under it, and it was a lead jacket around what looked like a steel rod core.. The description said it was designed for situations just as an engine block etc..
Someone tell me a bit more? Fairly curious about rounds like that; seems very specific in application.
I've shot a 50BMG.
It should stop the engine AND the driver without problems..
That said, the question was to answer two questions:
#1) What would it take to stop a car fairly quickly..
#2) If I were to hide behind an engine block, how well protected am I?
Jeff, Art..
I saw a pic of a 30-06 it had a caption that said "30-06 Penatrator" under it, and it was a lead jacket around what looked like a steel rod core.. The description said it was designed for situations just as an engine block etc..
Someone tell me a bit more? Fairly curious about rounds like that; seems very specific in application.
I've shot a 50BMG.
It should stop the engine AND the driver without problems..Hkmp5sd
Member
RE: Deadly Weapons
They also shot through windshields and doors with various caliber weapons to show how well they penetrated. They finished the car off with a .50 machinegun.
They also shot through windshields and doors with various caliber weapons to show how well they penetrated. They finished the car off with a .50 machinegun.
sm
member
Art is correct, shot placement.
I'd rather hide behind say and old Big block vs a new 4 banger put in sideways.
I had a Malibu stopped cold on the freeway once, had one of those "trick" fiberglass performance fans instead of the factory metal one. back then the limit was 75 mph and I was doing about 90 mph ( or so) , when that fan decided to shatter. I was shut down pretty quick, I mean in about 5 sec, I made it to shoulder and DRT. I went back to metal fans, braided aircraft /heater hoses...and other accessories...no more fantastic plastic for me.
I'd rather hide behind say and old Big block vs a new 4 banger put in sideways.
I had a Malibu stopped cold on the freeway once, had one of those "trick" fiberglass performance fans instead of the factory metal one. back then the limit was 75 mph and I was doing about 90 mph ( or so) , when that fan decided to shatter. I was shut down pretty quick, I mean in about 5 sec, I made it to shoulder and DRT. I went back to metal fans, braided aircraft /heater hoses...and other accessories...no more fantastic plastic for me.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
twoblink, that "Penetrator" bullet is a new one to me. All I've seen are the old WW II black-tip AP.
I know a max-charge hunting bullet from an '06 will blow a 3/4" hole through 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards where GI Ball M2 only made a crater.
Art
I know a max-charge hunting bullet from an '06 will blow a 3/4" hole through 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards where GI Ball M2 only made a crater.
Art
NevadaPistolero
Member
the video deadly weapons also had a segment of shooting gas cans with tracers....nothing. they just wont ignite the gas even when it was spilled. Ive got the tape around here somewhere, havent watched it in years but its pretty interesting. At the end they use C4 to blow up the car they had been shooting the hell out of. Also the only reliable round to penetrate a door was a 12 ga. slug, of course the 50 cal will do the job also.
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