Will the USFA 1858 Remington Die in Infancy?

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Timthinker

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
815
When Ruger cancelled production of its Old Army revolver, everyone knew economics motivated that decision. Fair enough. Ruger is a business that seeks to make profit off its products. But thinking about this matter led me wonder if a similar fate awaits the proposed USFA 1858 Remington revolver that has been discussed at THR. Now why would I ponder this?

While USFA has a reputation for marketing fine firearms, those guns are not inexpensive. If the proposed USFA 1858 Remington is also an expensive piece, then is it not possible that it could price itself out of the BP market as did the ROA? This idea does not seem like an unreasonable possibility.


Timthinker
 
I certainly hope not. This gun is somewhat different though as it is a perfect replica of a 19th century revolver (including the "E. Remington & Sons." rollmark on the barrel), whereas the Ruger was a replica of nothing. I would surmise that most people interested in BP are also interested in the 19th century as I am and would not buy a Ruger because it is not a replica of anything.

I could be totally wrong, but that is my reasoning.

I am going to buy one of the '75's when they become available to shoot BP .45 Colt's in. I may even buy a '58 depending on how faithfull it is to the originals.

Jared
 
USFA is also maneuvering to take advantage of the Civil War sesquicentennial coming up. I MIGHT buy one of their guns...maybe. I'm two-deep in Hege Remingtons.
 
If the "new" 1858 Remington meets a premature demise, it may be due to its price tag. Unofficial estimates that I have heard, and these are nothing more than guesses, place the USFA price tag comparable to the Ruger. If this estimate is correct, then many shooters may opt for a less expensive repo.

True, the weight and appearance of the USFA 1858 Remington are much closer to the original versions of this gun than the Ruger. In fact, the Ruger is not a repo of any 19th century handgun. But economics are an important factor here. Lest we forget, the Ruger Old Army was in production for 35 years and still possesses something of a cult following among some BP shooters. Yet, economics doomed this gun. We need to remember this fact.


Timthinker
 
I think what really prompted Ruger to originally issue the Old Army, beyond Ruger Sr.'s infatuation with C&B, was the rampant popularity of "westerns" in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Although it wasn't a repo of anything, the buying public at the time weren't as concerned with authenticity as much as functionality. It looks the part enough to pass for one of "Clint's guns." However, these days, with the CAS/SASS crowd driving a lot of C&B purchases, more focus has been placed on by-the-numbers tradition.

Thus, it would seem to me that the Old Army was catering to a different crowd, and those people have had their fill, so to speak. The USFA 1858, by contrast, is geared toward the shooter that demands historical accuracy, and wants only the finest quality. Alot of CAS/SASS shooters know the ROA is the top of the pile quality-wise, but avoid getting one for the sake of regulations, etc. This is where USFA steps in...

Time will tell whether or not the USFA 1858 sticks around. My bet is it will, because the factory has done enough research ahead of time to predict demand/profitability/etc. This, plus the fact that the die hard cowboy shooter will be able to purchase a genuine new in box Remington 1858 for the first time in nearly 150 years, and one that he/she knows is top notch.
 
Comparing the Ruger Old Army to the forthcoming USFA reproduction of the Remington New Model Army is sort of an apple to oranges sort of thing, as both are, or were, aimed at different markets.

I will presume for argument, that the USFA will be of the highest quality, correctly marked as a Remington, be void of proof marks, and billboard markings on the barrel – and last but not least, be more expensive then similar Italian offerings. The difference in cost may narrow though, as the U.S. dollar plunges in value against the Euro.

As with their Single Action Army revolvers, the Remington will appeal to those that want the best, and are willing to pay to get it, and this includes some that won’t so much as fire a shot. We, on the other hand, will likely shoot the living daylights out of whatever we purchase, and demand performance to match or exceed the superior cosmetics. A pretty face and nothing more won’t cut the mustard.

Looking at their other revolvers, USFA has shown that they can deliver both performance and looks (at a price of course) and the company is tooled to make their products in modest quantities and still make money – provided they can find buyers willing to spend the money.

With their Single Action Colt’s they have to compete with the original maker, and at a price point in the same ballpark. But Remington has no intention of making revolvers, so that won’t be an issue here. In fact Remington is using their advertising clout to help push the USFA product in markets not usually touched by cap & ball buyers.

I suspect that the Italians will continue to hold most of the market they now have, but USFA, I believe, is going to win over the carriage trade at the high end, and expand into new markets of their own. If so, that won’t be bad for anybody.
 
Old Fuff is right.

USFA's market is also a high-end niche market. Their SAA's have plenty of lower-priced competition, including from Ruger. You don't buy a USFA revolver unless you are a connoisseur.

Is there a market for fine wine when you can buy wine in a box for a lot less? Hell yes. Seems to be growing, too.

Ruger has never had a particularly good rep with firearms connoisseurs and collectors. They make power tools, not collectibles. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I don't think that the ROA and the USFA 1858 would really be in competition with each other, even if Ruger still made the ROA.

Furthermore, many of the USFAs will probably end up sitting unfired in safes or display cases. That's a whole other market from the (apparently minimal) market for an accurate, highly functional, but not gorgeous, 20th-century-designed cap-n-ball.
 
ArmedBear have you never looked at USFA `s site ? their cowboy guns start at 550.00 1873 Colt look alike ..is that so far from Rugers price for a ROA ?
 
I keep hearing about a slower economy, but I find that those struck by the economy dont own black powder pistols for the most part. Most folks on the forum all own several pistols and rifles. Those are going to be the folk that purchase a new USFA. It will be the "Just one more..." that we talk to our wives about. I know it will be that way at my house.
 
their cowboy guns start at 550.00 1873 Colt look alike
Click to expand...

That's a competition-specific "stripper" SAA with a downgraded finish, at about double the price of the equivalent Uberti. Did you look any further? Just a CCH hammer is $175 extra. Their regular blue guns start much higher and go up from there, and their "options" are all very expensive.

The 1858 will be aimed at the market that pays $1500+ for their SAA's, not $550 for a comp. model.

BTW by "connoisseurs" I don't mean "better people." I mean people who recognize and want small differences in quality and are willing and able to pay exponentially higher prices for incremental improvements.
 
It does not follow that owning several bp guns means one is unaffected by a slowing economy and will therefore elect to purchase yet another expensive gun.

My collection spans acquisitions over 30 years and any new purchases are done only after extensive searching for the most value for the money.

I have not been in the market for $600 guns for many years, and see no chance that I will be in the future - it ain't getting better. My last purchase was a $300 used Ruger Old Army.

I would love to be able to buy a USFA SAA; it ain't gonna happen. If their guns decrease significantly in price as used guns, there might be a chance, but a new one is not an option.
 
Since we are discussing economics, ponder the following question. Have the U.S. sales figures for all types of BP revolvers risen or fallen much in the last 5 to 10 years? The answer to this question will effect not only the USFA Remington sales, but also the BP revolver market in general. I raise this point because Ruger's decision to opt out of this market niche may be based on marketing assessments that show a decline or projected decline in this sphere. At the very least, this is something to consider since it raises a host of potential concerns for BP shooters.


Timthinker
 
The only reason I drew a comparison between the ROA and the USFA is because, earlier in this thread, someone had wondered whether or not Ruger's pulling out of the market had any bearing on whether or not the USFA would do well.

...and, for that matter, I wouldn't consider a Ruger a "power tool" by any stretch. It may not be the finest fit and finish in the market, but I certainly wouldn't sell them short. I could have purchased any cap and ball out there, and I went with an ROA.
 
What's wrong with power tools?

There's just a difference between a gun that people buy to go shoot or hunt with, and a gun that people buy to ogle over in their den. There's nothing wrong with that, either. I generally have power tools; some are just nicer ones. Even my nicest shotgun is a tool, not a safe queen.

USFA has concentrated on collector pieces, with a foray into CAS competition guns with more attainable pricing. Ruger has concentrated on guns that people stuff in holsters or sling on their backs, and go shoot. Different markets, that's all. No wrong or right about it.
 
I am fairly new to black powder cap and ball firearms (actually bought my first one tonight), but have fired my fair share of black powder cartridge pistols, rifles along with having a bias for old west single actions (even an 1851 cartridge conversion thrown in). This 1858 and especially the USFA Colt SSA replicas really strike my fancy. I will most likely take a long hard look at this revolver and if it is nicely made and period correct I don't have a problem buying it. What I want to know is if they are going to come out with more cap and ball revolvers like the 1851 or 1860, heck throw in a patterson or a walker. I would really like to see an 1851 and 1860 myself.
 
Last edited:
I think Bill Ruger would have been pleased by someone calling his design a 'power tool'. He certainly expected them to be used, not put in a case to be looked at.
 
There is a thread over on the SASS wire forum that states that the 1858 will sell in the $1895 range for the blued model. I think that this price is rediculess. I called a USFA dealer to inquire about the price and he felt that it was fair and that they would sell fine at that level. Am I just out of touch with reality or is this dealer high on crack? I can't see anybody except maybe 1 out of 50 people actually paying this price for a replica. I think that the price would need to be $1,000 or less for this thing to have any chance; and the 1875 Remington would need to be $1,350 or less for it to have a chance.

Jared
 
At one time USFA offered a line of Colt c & b reproductions, which they made from raw castings bought from Uberti.

USFA has a problem with Colt's. They can make a high quality product, but they can't mark it "Colt." To do that they'd have to buy a license from Colt to use their copyrighted trademarks. On the other hand they have an exclusive deal with Remington. Therefore no one - at least in this country - can make a revolver and mark it "Remington & Sons."
 
Ridiculous price?

Well, USFA's price for a SAA .22 rimfire revolver with target sights is $1665, plus $110 if you want a CCH hammer, plus $395 if you want checkered walnut grips. And they sell them. I don't own one, but people do buy them.

Like I said, they're not playing on the same field as Ruger, so they're really not competitors as a general rule. The Single Six is what, $400? Do you think that anyone is looking at the Ruger, and the USFA, and trying to figure out which one is the better choice, the way one might compare a GP100 and a 620? I don't think so.:)

I'm guessing that these 1858's will be bought mostly by collectors. They may shoot BP revolvers, but many of them won't shoot THESE revolvers. For better or worse. USFA's are supposed to be GREAT shooters.:)
 
Last edited:
ArmedBear: I just must have got the wrong image in my mind when you said powertool. When I think powertool, I think plastic and pure function. Although the Ruger doesn't have the aesthetic appeal of the USFA SAA's, I wouldn't go so far as to call them ugly (as I have heard some people do). I will say that the finish on my new Old Army is not up to the level of my older Red Hawk. I may give Ruger a call and have them touch it up...

Regarding the price of the USFA 1858...that is just insane. I mean really, how much of an improvement can a USFA be over an Italian, and still be period correct? Unless they're making the thing out of some Star Trek alloy that I'm unaware of, that price is wholly unjustified. I have a feeling they're marketing this toward the "mantel piece" crowd...particularly the ones that don't know any better. I might be willing to lay down $1500 on one of USFA's sweeter single actions, but $1800 for an 1858 Remington? They'd have to have Jesus AND Buddha working in their assembly department...
 
Price goes up exponentially as quality goes up incrementally, as I'm sure you know.

How much nicer, REALLY, is that USFA single action than a recent Uberti? I picked up the low-end Cattleman Millenium to use as a plinker and trail gun, and with some aftermarket springs for 20 bucks, it shoots perfectly and metal and wood fit are superb, all for under $300 total with the Wolffs.

Now is the $1600 USFA nicer? Is it a perfect gun? Probably so. But is it "worth" the price of FOUR similar blue/cch Ubertis that come with a CCH hammer standard? Well, if you want perfect inside and out, you pay in multiples, not increments. And people pay as much for Colts that are not up to USFA standards, just because they say, "Colt" on them.:eek:

I'm sure the 1858 will be incredible and won't leave the shop unless it's absolutely perfect inside and out. And hand work costs money. That's just how it is. Original sculpture ain't cheap, either, and you can't even shoot it. I mean, I guess you can shoot AT it, but that's only for the wealthiest among us.:p

Whether that's "worth it" depends on a few things. One has to have money to burn, a deep appreciation for why the work costs so much, and a desire to have that perfect piece. For most of us, a Ruger or Uberti is a better choice, and we won't want to kill ourselves if we drop it.:)
 
Keep several things in mind. First, USFA is going to have to recover at least some of the design, development and tooling costs over a relatively small number of guns. Second, the $1,800 plus is the MSRP, not necessarily what they will sell for after the intial demand is met.

Finely, a whole lot of guys over at the pistol sub-forum think nothing of spending $1,800 or more for a tricked-out .45 automatic pistol.

It's all a matter of perspective.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
Opinions on the Pedersoli 1858 Target Remington
Replies
2
Views
846
Bad Flynch
B
B
  • Locked
new Pietta 1858 Remington?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Hellgate
Hellgate
T
  • Locked
What BP Revolver Is Most Like the Ruger Old Army?
Replies
23
Views
2K
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
G
P
  • Locked
Classicballistx
Replies
5
Views
1K
classicballistx
C
hso
  • Locked
S&W Relocation
Replies
0
Views
2K
hso
hso
Back
Top