What one must remember is that the USFA comes out of the box in the same condition as a gun that's been worked over throughout by a gunsmith, by hand. It's probably less expensive to get a USFA than to get a similar piece any other way. Seriously.
Will the USFA 1858 Remington Die in Infancy?
- Thread starter Timthinker
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DixieTexian
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American labor ain't cheap. But 1800 bucks sounds a little high. I certainly won't be able to afford one, but it would be cool to have one that is authentice in all aspects except for modern manufacturing available.
anythingelse
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ehh...to each his own, I guess. Regardless of how much work goes into the USFA Remington, it is still limited by the Remington design. I suppose it's a boon for cowboy shooters, but for the all around user, I'd still prefer a Ruger.
Timthinker
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While I have been a staunch supporter of the Ruger Old Army, I believe there are "upper end" Italian repos that can compete with the USFA on accuracy and perhaps reliability. The Pedersoli target revolvers come to my mind, and they sell for much less than $1800. If I remove Ruger from consideration, the higher quality Italian replicas will get my support as shooters. They already have been used in international competitions and have something of a "pedigree" for their performance in that arena. As far as I am concerned, mutual funds are for investments, not USFA handguns.
Timthinker
Timthinker
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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The Ubertia .44 Cattleman'e Carbine came out of the box working flawlessly, trigger pull and all. The wood work and brass furniture were impeccable.
The Pietta made Remington 1858 .44 Target Model with adjustable sights that my sister presented to me came out of the box with an action (including trigger pull) as smooth as velvet. The fit and finish were very nice also, as many people who saw a picture of it on this site can attest to.
There's simply no need for Remington to charge damned near $2000.00 for a '58. They may have the right but they have no justification for it.
They could use silver screws and a gold plated trigger and make the front sight out of platinum and it still ain't worth $2000.00 using fair market value standards.
Well, I'll be watching here and there. They may not charge that much anyway. If they do, then they won't be making that damned many of them and that's a fact......
The Pietta made Remington 1858 .44 Target Model with adjustable sights that my sister presented to me came out of the box with an action (including trigger pull) as smooth as velvet. The fit and finish were very nice also, as many people who saw a picture of it on this site can attest to.
There's simply no need for Remington to charge damned near $2000.00 for a '58. They may have the right but they have no justification for it.
They could use silver screws and a gold plated trigger and make the front sight out of platinum and it still ain't worth $2000.00 using fair market value standards.
Well, I'll be watching here and there. They may not charge that much anyway. If they do, then they won't be making that damned many of them and that's a fact......
The Old Fuff is not going to get his undies in a knot...
Of course many are disappointed. Most, if not all of us would like to buy what the new USFA revolver represents for a price that fits our individual budgets. And to make things worse I suspect a big jump in price will soon be forthcoming from the importers of Italian products as the value of the U.S. dollar drops against the Euro.
But that $1,800 + tag on the USFA is a “manufacturer’s suggested retail price” that isn’t cast in stone. After the initial demand from the I’ve-got-to-have-it-first crowd is over, the laws of supply & demand will dictate that street price is different the then MSRP, and some like-new examples are sure to show up on the used market.
And as much as it may upset some, the very best (if that’s what it is) usually isn’t the least expensive. We don’t all go out and buy new Lincoln Explorers or Apple computers either. As the Charcoal Gent pointed out, there are alternatives, and some of them aren’t too shabby.
Of course many are disappointed. Most, if not all of us would like to buy what the new USFA revolver represents for a price that fits our individual budgets. And to make things worse I suspect a big jump in price will soon be forthcoming from the importers of Italian products as the value of the U.S. dollar drops against the Euro.
But that $1,800 + tag on the USFA is a “manufacturer’s suggested retail price” that isn’t cast in stone. After the initial demand from the I’ve-got-to-have-it-first crowd is over, the laws of supply & demand will dictate that street price is different the then MSRP, and some like-new examples are sure to show up on the used market.
And as much as it may upset some, the very best (if that’s what it is) usually isn’t the least expensive. We don’t all go out and buy new Lincoln Explorers or Apple computers either. As the Charcoal Gent pointed out, there are alternatives, and some of them aren’t too shabby.
Note that a really nice shotgun's price is in the six figures (e.g. Purdey, H&H)
A great shotgun is $2000.
A functional shotgun is $200.
The very best is often "ridiculously expensive" especially compared to a mass-produced item. It wouldn't pay to do all the little extra incremental things needed to make it if it didn't fetch a high price.
Just be glad that modern manufacturing techniques have lowered entry-level prices to affordable levels. Otherwise, ALL shotguns would be $100,000.
But it's still silly to compare a Purdey to a Mossberg.
A great shotgun is $2000.
A functional shotgun is $200.
The very best is often "ridiculously expensive" especially compared to a mass-produced item. It wouldn't pay to do all the little extra incremental things needed to make it if it didn't fetch a high price.
Just be glad that modern manufacturing techniques have lowered entry-level prices to affordable levels. Otherwise, ALL shotguns would be $100,000.
But it's still silly to compare a Purdey to a Mossberg.
sundance44s
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Hold on fellows these prices you are hearing are grapevine prices ...I personally talked to USFA last week ....and as of yet the price isn`t decided on ...straight from the horses mouth ! I looked at the picture ..which is real and I don`t see any of the fancy bells and whistles on it that make their top of the line guns so expencive ...their plain jane guns aren`t that far out of line with priceing . In fact I don`t feel they are out of line at all ..If they price me out of the Remington ..I`ll buy one of their 1873 Colts and be happy to get it .
Library Guy
Member
It’s funny what people will and won’t pay for various things…
Consider:
$700 for a handgun that’s mostly plastic, oops, tactical polymer.
$2000 computer that will be obsolete in five years.
$3000 big screen TV to make sitting on your duff more entertaining.
$20,000 SUV that will likely be replaced in ten years.
Or… $2000 for an obsolete revolver that will last a lifetime.
One of the things that makes the alleged high price tag of the USFA 1858 so shocking is that most of us are used to thinking of C&B revolvers as toys. They’re cheap and we can buy them through the mail. At the same time we get upset if the case hardening colors are drab, or the springs break, or screws are too soft.
In their day, C&B revolvers were high tech, precision made, hand fitted pieces of machinery. The average 19th century Joe saved his money and probably only bought one in his lifetime. We could do the same if we choose…
Consider:
$700 for a handgun that’s mostly plastic, oops, tactical polymer.
$2000 computer that will be obsolete in five years.
$3000 big screen TV to make sitting on your duff more entertaining.
$20,000 SUV that will likely be replaced in ten years.
Or… $2000 for an obsolete revolver that will last a lifetime.
One of the things that makes the alleged high price tag of the USFA 1858 so shocking is that most of us are used to thinking of C&B revolvers as toys. They’re cheap and we can buy them through the mail. At the same time we get upset if the case hardening colors are drab, or the springs break, or screws are too soft.
In their day, C&B revolvers were high tech, precision made, hand fitted pieces of machinery. The average 19th century Joe saved his money and probably only bought one in his lifetime. We could do the same if we choose…
Note also that, while we are used to buying cap-n-balls as mail-order toys, they're actually more complex than the SAA. Look at an 1858 and an 1873.
Internal parts count? Same.
Frame? Solid vs. screw-together. More difficult part to make vs. more parts. Same difference.
Barrel? Grips? All the same.
Look at the cylinder, then. The cartridge gun is a cylindrical block of metal with some machining and 6 holes bored straight through it. The BP gun has to be bored to a precise depth for each chamber, which then has to have another hole drilled in it at the correct angle dead-center and threaded, and the rear machining required doesn't even exist on the cartridge gun. Then six nipples have to be machined and installed.
Consider the ejector rod vs. the rammer. The rammer involves a somewhat complex mechanism that has to withstand far more stress without being too heavy, with a catch that has to hold the thing up without being impossible to unlatch. The ejector is a piece of thin steel bar stock in a steel tube, each with a little machining or soldering to finish.
I'd fully expect an 1858 to cost more than an 1873, if both are the same quality. There's more to it.
Internal parts count? Same.
Frame? Solid vs. screw-together. More difficult part to make vs. more parts. Same difference.
Barrel? Grips? All the same.
Look at the cylinder, then. The cartridge gun is a cylindrical block of metal with some machining and 6 holes bored straight through it. The BP gun has to be bored to a precise depth for each chamber, which then has to have another hole drilled in it at the correct angle dead-center and threaded, and the rear machining required doesn't even exist on the cartridge gun. Then six nipples have to be machined and installed.
Consider the ejector rod vs. the rammer. The rammer involves a somewhat complex mechanism that has to withstand far more stress without being too heavy, with a catch that has to hold the thing up without being impossible to unlatch. The ejector is a piece of thin steel bar stock in a steel tube, each with a little machining or soldering to finish.
I'd fully expect an 1858 to cost more than an 1873, if both are the same quality. There's more to it.
sundance44s
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ArmedBear I too see more work makeing a 1858 cap&ball ..it doesn`t make since ..but Uberti sells a 1873 Colt for 430.00 and the 1858 for 255.00 give or take a few dollars .That really doesn`t make since does it . I bought the Uberti Colt 1873 last year ..it`s a good looking pistol fit and finish and smooth right out of the box , and it would be hard to tell it apart from many of the others I`ve seen . The only difference I can see would be this Uberti 1873 I bought it`s 45 lc I could have bought it in 357 mag or 44 special ..I don`t think the 1858 frame would handle those loads ..So the Italians do have better grade steel than what they are putting in the cap and ball frame guns . The reason I will buy the USFA Remington is because I`ve shortened the barrel on several Italian made 1858`s and the steel was so soft , it made me think of the old saturday night specials that were around when I was a kid ..throw away pistols ..There were alot of them made in this country too ..in fact I had one made here, it was pure junk even as a 22 cal .
They have every right and sure have justification to charge whatever they want for it if people buy it. It will be worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it, just like everything else that money buys. I will make my decision when the prices are set at the store, that will determine if it is worth it to me to own it. One thing I do know is that if it is manufactured like my friends USFA SAA I have had the pleasure of using, if it was priced at an even grand it would be worth it to me.
1858 Remington
I may have an advantage in this discussion, as I have an original Remington, the 1861 model, in very good condition, I also have 2 Ruger C&Bs, and a Cabela , which is a Pietta. Comparing them, the Rugers have the edge in design and construction as a shooter, and the Pietta and the original are about the same in the quality and accuracy department. The Pietta has a smoother finish and the original has a smoother action- not bad for a 150+ year old weapon.
If the speculation on this board is accurate, a Remington from USFA will cost more than a genuine 1858, which seems silly. If you just want to shoot it, get a Ruger. If you need an authentic appearance, the Italian models I have seen will work, and with a little skilled tuning, will work very well, If you want to put it in a case and brag about it, spring for an original.
Frank
I may have an advantage in this discussion, as I have an original Remington, the 1861 model, in very good condition, I also have 2 Ruger C&Bs, and a Cabela , which is a Pietta. Comparing them, the Rugers have the edge in design and construction as a shooter, and the Pietta and the original are about the same in the quality and accuracy department. The Pietta has a smoother finish and the original has a smoother action- not bad for a 150+ year old weapon.
If the speculation on this board is accurate, a Remington from USFA will cost more than a genuine 1858, which seems silly. If you just want to shoot it, get a Ruger. If you need an authentic appearance, the Italian models I have seen will work, and with a little skilled tuning, will work very well, If you want to put it in a case and brag about it, spring for an original.
Frank
Timthinker
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Junok, welcome to the forums. I am somewhat surprised by your statement that an original Remington, in this instance an 1861 model, costs more than the new 1858 USFA version. Truthfully, I never considered comparing the two in price. Would it be possible for you to post some pics of your 1861 Remington? I am sure we would like to view it. Thanks, and welcome once again to the forums.
Timthinker
Timthinker
Original Remingtons
The Olld Fuff also has an original Remington New Army, and it also has been shot.
Prior to the days when the reproductions first appeared during the 1960's if one wanted to shoot a cap & ball revolver, original ones were all that was available. Ones in good condition weren't hard to find, and not nearly as expensive as they are now. So long as black powder was used I never heard of any problems, and in fact on one occasions I stacked 5 balls, one behind the other, in the bore of an 1860 Army without doing any damage to either myself or the gun. But that's another story.
Anyway, the big problem was to find a revolver that didn't have a shot-out, badly pitted bore. Even guns that had good cosmetics often had bores that were not conductive to accurate shooting, and those who had guns with clean bores knew they had a prize. As for the actions, yes - they did tend to be better fitted in the best condition guns, but they were smoother because the were worn smooth.
I doubt that anyone today is going to find a 19th Century Colt or Remington that is in good enough condition for serious shooting that won't cost substantially more then the expected USFA suggested retail price. Of course revolvers in "good" or lesser condition would be.
The Olld Fuff also has an original Remington New Army, and it also has been shot.
Prior to the days when the reproductions first appeared during the 1960's if one wanted to shoot a cap & ball revolver, original ones were all that was available. Ones in good condition weren't hard to find, and not nearly as expensive as they are now. So long as black powder was used I never heard of any problems, and in fact on one occasions I stacked 5 balls, one behind the other, in the bore of an 1860 Army without doing any damage to either myself or the gun. But that's another story.
Anyway, the big problem was to find a revolver that didn't have a shot-out, badly pitted bore. Even guns that had good cosmetics often had bores that were not conductive to accurate shooting, and those who had guns with clean bores knew they had a prize. As for the actions, yes - they did tend to be better fitted in the best condition guns, but they were smoother because the were worn smooth.
I doubt that anyone today is going to find a 19th Century Colt or Remington that is in good enough condition for serious shooting that won't cost substantially more then the expected USFA suggested retail price. Of course revolvers in "good" or lesser condition would be.
bigbadgun
Member
USFA can charge what ewver they want I am gonna stick to my Italians. For $1800 + I can get a bunch of new guns or 1 new gun hmmmmm I am gonna stick to my italians. Maybe in 5 years or so when they sold enough to pay for all the retooling they had to do to produce these remmies maybe the price may come down to earth, However I doubt it.:banghead:
sundance44s
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I was willing to pay up too 1,000 bucks for the USFA Remmie 1858..But ..if this price is right I`m thinking ..a new pair of forged frame Uberti Remmies 5 1/2 inch barrel models ..will make me feel better about it .
If USFA reads these forums ..they might want to think about it ..I`ve been holding off on the new Pair of Uberti`s for a year ..waiting .Now I`m scratching my head ...what are they thinking . Safe Queen collectables I guess ..Don`t have a use for something to look at .
If USFA reads these forums ..they might want to think about it ..I`ve been holding off on the new Pair of Uberti`s for a year ..waiting .Now I`m scratching my head ...what are they thinking . Safe Queen collectables I guess ..Don`t have a use for something to look at .
GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
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As I'vd stated on here many times, my guns are tools, plain and simple. I shoot them, I clean them and I take good care of them, and when I call on one of them it is always there.
I'm retired and stay by myself and I don't run the bars or whores too much. I'vd got a little money.
BUT that's how come I'vd got a little money. I didn't waste it on things like paying $2000.00 or more for a name.
The day somebody can show me (and I'm not talking about names or paperwork or theories or labor costs or proof marks or any of that stuff. I don't give a rat's ass about any of that) The day somebody can show me plain out bullet on target proof (which is what really count's) that the USFA is vastly superior (or just a little bit superior) to a good Uberti or Pietta made Remington 1858 .44 Target Model then I may remotely consider entertaining the thought of un-assing some of my money for one of them. But I wouldn't want anyone to hold their breath until that happens....
I'm retired and stay by myself and I don't run the bars or whores too much. I'vd got a little money.
BUT that's how come I'vd got a little money. I didn't waste it on things like paying $2000.00 or more for a name.
The day somebody can show me (and I'm not talking about names or paperwork or theories or labor costs or proof marks or any of that stuff. I don't give a rat's ass about any of that) The day somebody can show me plain out bullet on target proof (which is what really count's) that the USFA is vastly superior (or just a little bit superior) to a good Uberti or Pietta made Remington 1858 .44 Target Model then I may remotely consider entertaining the thought of un-assing some of my money for one of them. But I wouldn't want anyone to hold their breath until that happens....
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Shiloh 50/70
Member
On the CAS City site, a poster stated he was just advised that the actual price for the 1858 Remington will be $1495.
May I just point out two things;
First, USFA has placed high prices on their firearms (with their Single Action Army, only about $100 less than a Colt) however, when they realized that they might have priced themselves out of the market, as happened the end of last year, they reduce the price by almost $100. It appears that their philosophy is it's easier to start high and reduce price then the other way around. And as stated before, the actual sale price of many USFA revolvers is 10% or more below the MSRP. Only time will tell what the 1858s will actually sell for.
Second, there is a gun shop near me that has an original 1858, in what looks like all original condition but lacking most all finish, with a mint bore clearly showing the progressive rifling, in shootable condition for $1800. With original Remingtons around like this, USFA may soon adjust their price.
May I just point out two things;
First, USFA has placed high prices on their firearms (with their Single Action Army, only about $100 less than a Colt) however, when they realized that they might have priced themselves out of the market, as happened the end of last year, they reduce the price by almost $100. It appears that their philosophy is it's easier to start high and reduce price then the other way around. And as stated before, the actual sale price of many USFA revolvers is 10% or more below the MSRP. Only time will tell what the 1858s will actually sell for.
Second, there is a gun shop near me that has an original 1858, in what looks like all original condition but lacking most all finish, with a mint bore clearly showing the progressive rifling, in shootable condition for $1800. With original Remingtons around like this, USFA may soon adjust their price.
Timthinker
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The Charcoal Gentleman has raised an interesting point about replica Italian BP revolvers: accuracy. The better Italian revolvers appear to possess quite good accuracy from what I read here and elsewhere. If this is true, then does this point diminish the appeal of the USFA for shooters? The Charcoal Gentleman has given us something to ponder.
Timthinker
Timthinker
1858 Remingtons
Just to add to the confusion, there were three 44 cal revolver models made by Remington around the Civil War. The actual 1858 was also known as the Beals patent. It had a conical front sight and a smooth cylinder, with no hammer notches, and was made until 1862. Then came the so called 1861 model, called that because
it was marked "patent 1861". This was made during 1862, had a conical front sight and smooth cylinder, but the cylinder could be pulled out without lowering the loading lever. Either 6 or 12 thousand were made, depending on who you believe. Since mine has a 7XXX serial, I lean to the 12000 camp. In 1863 the New Model Army was produced, with a flat front sight, and hammer notches in the cylinder like a Colt, only deeper. This pistol required lowering the loading lever to pull the cylinder pin, and is the version that the italian replicas are modeled on. People tend to lump all of these revolvers together and call them 1858's, but all that I have seen in museums have been new model army revolvers.
Frank
Just to add to the confusion, there were three 44 cal revolver models made by Remington around the Civil War. The actual 1858 was also known as the Beals patent. It had a conical front sight and a smooth cylinder, with no hammer notches, and was made until 1862. Then came the so called 1861 model, called that because
it was marked "patent 1861". This was made during 1862, had a conical front sight and smooth cylinder, but the cylinder could be pulled out without lowering the loading lever. Either 6 or 12 thousand were made, depending on who you believe. Since mine has a 7XXX serial, I lean to the 12000 camp. In 1863 the New Model Army was produced, with a flat front sight, and hammer notches in the cylinder like a Colt, only deeper. This pistol required lowering the loading lever to pull the cylinder pin, and is the version that the italian replicas are modeled on. People tend to lump all of these revolvers together and call them 1858's, but all that I have seen in museums have been new model army revolvers.
Frank
Perk
Member
But, guyyyys… real race car drivers have posed with these fine pieces. Real race car drivers.
Okay, I’m pulling chains.
Am going with Old Fluff, here. Might could be a good time to keep an eye out for what happens to pricing, down the line.
Will they become more affordable as time goes by, or will marketing (or, some such) change, in order to maintain elevated pricing. F’rinstance: You’ll be able to get the same well-packaged pieces, at the same well-packaged prices; only they’ll be individually numbered and signed by __________, for that personal touch. Franklin Mint stuff.
‘Course, wait too long and availability could flame out, like last week’s latest sneaker design. Then, where might one be?
Myself, I’m partial to owning one-off items. But, not at the cost of an arm, or a leg (so to speak). For the time being, this camp will be sticking to the ol’ Clean, Dry and Serviceable line of thought. Though, always, of course, keeping an eye out for that I-don’t-know-what-I-got kind of bargain sale. Heck, I have to. Experience has shown that it would simply be beyond my own abilities to not fire one of these exceptional specimens.
So, selfish as it may seem, I hope that many of these fine sets are sold to many fine people. ‘Cause, every one sold increases the odds for finding that bargain, somewhere, later on down the line.
Okay, I’m pulling chains.
Am going with Old Fluff, here. Might could be a good time to keep an eye out for what happens to pricing, down the line.
Will they become more affordable as time goes by, or will marketing (or, some such) change, in order to maintain elevated pricing. F’rinstance: You’ll be able to get the same well-packaged pieces, at the same well-packaged prices; only they’ll be individually numbered and signed by __________, for that personal touch. Franklin Mint stuff.
‘Course, wait too long and availability could flame out, like last week’s latest sneaker design. Then, where might one be?
Myself, I’m partial to owning one-off items. But, not at the cost of an arm, or a leg (so to speak). For the time being, this camp will be sticking to the ol’ Clean, Dry and Serviceable line of thought. Though, always, of course, keeping an eye out for that I-don’t-know-what-I-got kind of bargain sale. Heck, I have to. Experience has shown that it would simply be beyond my own abilities to not fire one of these exceptional specimens.
So, selfish as it may seem, I hope that many of these fine sets are sold to many fine people. ‘Cause, every one sold increases the odds for finding that bargain, somewhere, later on down the line.
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