Wilson Case Gauge and Lake City 223 mil brass

[mstreddy]

Hello all, some time ago there was a post about Lake City and other military brass being a bit long at the head or rim and sticking out of a Wilson case gauge even when properly sized.

IIRC the gist was that the mil brass would end up sticking out past the top shelf of the gauge even on properly sized brass. Is this correct?
I'm asking cause I'm using a Hornady LNL with RCBS 223 dies, die is bottomed out on shellplate and still results in being over the top shelf on the gauge. I can't screw the die down any further as it's already putting some pressure on the plate and in fact at full cam it pushes up the die and bushing up a little from the press top.

Any ideas, solutions -- should I remove some material from the die, or verify the brass works fine in the AR chamber and call it good?

Or, should I resize on the Rockchucker?
And yes, tried to search for the above referenced post, but couldn't find it.

Thanks,
EM

 

[SSN Vet]

How much does it stick out?

Just an fyi... all the Lake City military brass will be 5.56 Nato..... And though the exterior geometry of the 5.56 Nato brass and .223 Rem commercial brass will be nearly identical, if the brass was fired in a 5.56 chamber, it will fire form to that chamber.

The 5.56 chamber geometry is a little different than a .223 chamber in the shoulder area.

But if you sized the brass in a .223 sizing die, it should have bumped the shoulder back to where it will fit in a .223 chamber (or chamber gage).

Did you measure the length of the cases? If they are over 1.76" long they will need to be trimmed.... and for whatever reason, all the Lake City brass I ever scrounged did need to be trimmed.

I'm not familiar with the Wilson case gage, but perhaps the brass has been stretched beyond 1.76" and that is causing it to stand proud of the gage.

If you do have to make any modifications to your equipment, you should consider removing (file or mill) material from the top of the shell holder before you tinker with filing the die.

Hope this helps some.

 

[GLOOB]

First thing, check to see if it's the rim that makes the case stick up. This is the only way a case can stick out the top of a case gage despite being sized correctly. If you sand down the rim and it fits, you know your case is actually sized perfectly fine. Then you can open up the base of your case gauge a little so it works properly with your brass. This is a commonly done modification on Wilson 223 gauges; I guess they're either cut a little tight at the rim, or there's lots of 223/5.56 brass out there with an out of spec or dinged up rim. The slightly enlarged rim is not really an issue, unless your bolt face is cut too small.

If it's the actual "headspace" of the case that's too long, and it's happening to all your brass, it's probably your die/shellholder combination is off...which case you might need to work on the die or send it back. If it happens only to some of your brass, those pieces are probably work hardened and/or were fired out of an oversize chamber. A sizing die will bump back a case that was stretched a few mics in a normal chamber. But if it was stretched way too long to begin with, it can be overworked, and it won't size correctly.

This can be "fixed" by annealing the shoulder. But I'd expect that case to separate on its first or second firing. I have started gauging my O.F. 5.56 military brass of unknown origin BEFORE I size them to weed out the long ones. In my limited experience, these cases are separations (and resulting jam) waiting to happen. If I had a couple of cases that were too long after resizing, I'd toss. If I had a whole lot that did that, I guess I'd anneal them, size them, and see what pans out. Oh, if these cases were fired out of your rifle, then it's probably time to check your headspace.

Oh, I suppose you might keep in mind one more possibility. You didn't specify if you've used this gauge on other brass before. There's always the possibility that it's the case gauge that's out of spec!

 

[fguffey]

Head Space: Always head space, head space is an understand or the failure to understand it, ‘it’ being head space. these things do not drive me to the curb, I size a case, I measure the case from the head of the case to the shoulder, the measurement gives me the length of the case FROM THE HEAD OF THE CASE TO THE SHOULDER OF THE CASE, (I could day datum but I am the only person that uses datums), no matter what shell holder is used the deck height is the same, the shell holder or shell plate deck height is .125”.

“Lake City and other military brass being a bit long at the head or rim and sticking out of a Wilson case gauge even when properly sized” that statement is a oxymoron statement, that is the same as describing something that is rapidly slow, it can not be rapid and slow and it can not be too long when properly sized. The case when sized did not get full length sized to minimum length (full length sized and minimum length mean the same as in length when measured from the usual places.

A reloader with minimum shop skills can determine when full length sizing a case if the case whipped the press, or if the press whipped the case before lowering the ram. If the press failed to size the case when the ram was raised the part of the case that does not get sized will be protruding from the die between the die and shell holder, all a reloader with minimum shop skills has to do is measure the gap between the die and shell holder before lowering the ram, if they believe the case has excessive resistance to sizing they can lower the die an additional fractional turn of the die, something like 1/2 to 3/4 turn and try again.

The difficult part? Finding a reloader with a feeler gage, the feeler gage has for years been referred to as a thickness gage, Redding sells thickness gages.

My source for feeler gages does not sell reloading equipment, therefore I do not have to describe it to them.

"die is bottomed out on shell plate and still results in being over the top shelf on the gauge. I can't screw the die down any further as it's already putting some pressure on the plate and in fact at full cam it pushes up the die and bushing up a little from the press top”

In the old days ‘in the big inning’ presses were tested with strain gages and deviation gages, presses were not tested with cases that had so much resistance to sizing they pushed the top of the press up as in flex and or spring. I have all those gages, I do not need them to determine the ability of the press to size because I do not abuse presses, I am not a fan of the ‘fire to form then neck size 5 times and then? start over by full length sizing, HOW DO THEY DO THAT, the case has been fired 6 times, to me it is a matter of keeping up with two thought at the same time.

As I said, when the case whips the press use a feeler gage (thickness gage) to determine the amount of case that is protruding from the die. For those that do not use feeler gages it is possible to rotate the shell holder and remove it from the ram and case at the same time, after removing the shell holder (before lowering the ram) remove the die from the press then measure the case head protrusion from the die, remember, the deck height of the shell holder is .125” the protrusion from the case (in the perfect world) should be .125”.

Now we go back to your statement:

“Lake City and other military brass being a bit long at the head or rim and sticking out of a Wilson case gauge even when properly sized”

If the case head is protruding from the L.E. Wilson case gage it will be protruding from the die, the part of the case protruding from the die did not get stuffed into the die.

I am not the fan of abusing a press, I discourage grinding, shaving metal from the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder, it is not necessary nor is the Redding Competition shell holder set of 6, nice, yes but not necessary.

I have old Herter presses, strong, some stronger than others, I can shorten a case an additional .012” without grinding the shell holder, increasing the ability of a press to shorten a case below minimum length is the same as increasing the presses ability to overcome resistance, all my shell holders have a deck height of .125, not all my shell holders have the ability to overcome the same amount of increase.

F. Guffey

 

[MtnCreek]

If the rockchucker will size it to fit the gauge, you can remove a small amount from the die to get the same effect on the progressive press.

Try to insert the case in the gauge head first. Does the head fit in the gauge?

Gloob,
Great info on moding the gauge. Thanks!

 

[mstreddy]

SSN VET

Did you measure the length of the cases? If they are over 1.76" long they will need to be trimmed.... and for whatever reason, all the Lake City brass I ever scrounged did need to be trimmed.

I'm not familiar with the Wilson case gage, but perhaps the brass has been stretched beyond 1.76" and that is causing it to stand proud of the gage.

I understand the max length issue, but it doesn't affect the Wilson gauge that way. The headspace check is independent of the length and I'm actually holding the gauge in air. And I agree, of the 1x brass I have the LC are mostly the ones needing trimming.
Taking off material from shell holder is not the solution as I'm using a Hornady LNL shellplate... I'd rather not get into having to mill on 5 places instead of 1.

MtnCreek & Gloob, that is a good idea. I think that was along the lines of a solution suggested in that old post I mentioned. I just couldn't remember but it reference LC and some other mil brass as having issues in the Wilson gauges.

I'll check a few cases head first and will report back.

FGuffey, I actually have been looking for my feeler gauges (yes, I do know what they are and what they are used for in many applications beyond reloading). I might just have to buy a new set one of these days.

Thanks for the vector --
EM

 

[Walkalong]

I'm asking cause I'm using a Hornady LNL with RCBS 223 dies, die is bottomed out on shellplate and still results in being over the top shelf on the gauge.

I had the same problem with my LNL and a Redding sizer. I bought an RCBS sizer and it was the same way. I removed some material from the bottom of the dies until they would size brass to fit the gauge. It happened with LC brass of various years as well as various commercial brass. Interesting. I am getting 10 loadings easily with no sign of impending case head separation whatsoever. At around 10 to 15 loadings the primer pockets are getting loose, but no sign of undo stretching of the brass near the case head. This is a sure sign I am not pushing the shoulder back too far on the brass. All is well. Every time I size .223 cases I check the first few and then random cases, and they all fit the gauge.

Strange we both have the same problem on an LNL with .223 sizers. The only other brass I am sizing to fit a case gauge is .30-06, and it has no problem. With all my other FL sizers I am adjusting them according to the shoulder position, but it does not appear they would have a problem pushing the shoulder back farther as th dies are not touching the shell plate.

 

[helotaxi]

What you're describing is exactly why I do all my .223 case prep on a single stage and then use the progressive to load the prepped cases. No issues with not being able to set the shoulder back because of a shell plate. Not having to worry about this stuff makes things actually go faster despite the extra prep steps.

 

[fguffey]

“Try to insert the case in the gauge head first. Does the head fit in the gauge?”

The first .125” of the case starting with the case head is not sized, the shell holder deck height is .125” then the radius of the die is to be added, when a case is dropped into the L.E. Wilson case gage the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder/datum/radius in the bottom of the gage, when the case hits the radius a sound is heard. if the case head is holding the case off the bottom there is no sound made by the case hitting the bottom. The Wilson gage does not have case body support despite claims some reoladers use the Wilson case gage as a chamber gage.



“I have old Herter presses, strong, some stronger than others, I can shorten a case an additional .012” without grinding the shell holder, increasing the ability of a press to shorten a case below minimum length is the same as increasing the presses ability to overcome resistance, all my shell holders have a deck height of .125, not all my shell holders have the ability to overcome the same amount of increase”

Again, it is not necessary to remove material from the die and or shell holder, but if a reloader insist, first determine if it is necessary and determine how much material removal is required. I said I have shell holders that allow me to increase the presses ability to overcome resistance and I said I have shell holders that will not allow me to overcome the cases ability resistance sizing, the shell holder that will not allow me to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases resistance ‘FITS’. Then there are Lee shell holders, a most case friendly shell holder, Lee shell holders are loose fitting, lots of room for alignment? The Lee offers an additional increase in allowing the press to overcome case sizing resistance.

If the die will not restore a case to minimum length get your money back, if a die will not full length size a case get your money back, full length sizing and minimum length have the same meaning. If the press does not have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing, get a stronger press.

But FIRST! determine if the die and shell holder have the ability to restore a case to minimum length/full length size. The ability of a die and shell holder to full length size a case to minimum length is determined by the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder inside the die. Measuring the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die presents the same problem for smiths and reloaders as determining the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. THE GO-GAGE IS A FIXED GAGE, except when the gage is used to measure the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die, remove the sizer plug/primer punch assembly from the die, insert the go-gage into the die, slide the shell holder onto the case head and with a feeler gage/thickness gage into the gap between the shell holder and die, remember, a feeler gage has leafs of different thicknesses, increase or decrease the thickness of the gage until the width of the gap is determined, in the perfect world the thickness of the leaf that fits indicate the difference in length between the go-gage length chamber and the ability of the die/shell holder to restore a case to minimum length. For the 30/06 the gap would be .005”, if as most believe sizing is an accident the reading will be off, if grinding is necessary the gap will be on the + side of .005”, grinding the bottom of the die decreases the gap, back to deck height, I change deck height by decreasing the deck height, I us a feeler gage to raise the head of the case off the deck of the shell holder, no, it is not an obsession, I find it necessary when sizing cases for short chambers , no I do not find short chambers, I cut short chambers, there is no excuse for anyone cutting a chamber with a reamer and not know the length of the chamber at all times.

I read an article that includes instructions on cutting a chamber, first paragraph, “check often, no one know how close they are to completing the chamber”.

If the die and shell holder is not restoring the case to minimum length because the die does not have the ability to restore the case to minimum length make sure it is not the press that lacks the ability to overcome resistance.

F. Guffey

 

[mstreddy]

Walkalong, after testing some configurations, using my old Lyman turret, it was easier to set up than the RockChucker, I was able to size several cases -- LC, RP, FC, PMC, and they fit in the gauge.
I'm going to follow your lead and take a bit off the die. Since a few of us are having the issue on the LNL, I'd say their shellplate and system probably contributes to the insufficient sizing.

fguffey, I will take some material off the die, it's not the press lacking the ability, it's the die and shellplate combination.

Gloog and MtnCreek -- I tried the cases backwards and they would fit, so the gage is OK - near as I can tell -- it's the sizing die/shellplate combo.

All, thanks for the info, suggestions, and support -- I'll get the die over to my buddy's machine shop, knock off a couple thousands and take it from there. I'll update as it progresses.

EM

 

[hentown]

Don't know if this will be germane to this thread or not, but I have a lot of experience using a Wilson case gage for setting up the sizing die on my 650. I use both a Lee standard die and an RCBS X die for sizing, both with excellent results. I use Lake City brass, almost exclusively. When I properly bump the shoulder, using either the Lee or RCBS die, the brass sits exactly where it's supposed to in the case gage.

When I was tediously, laboriously loading on a Toadmaster, I found that it was impossible to properly bump the shoulder of a bottleneck round, due to the crappy design of the Toadmaster's shellplate. I only discovered that the Toadmaster wasn't permitting proper bumping of the shoulders when I bought the case gage. The loaded ammo was working fine in my old Bushy with its 5.56 chamber.

I have one AR with a Wylde chamber, with others that have 5.56 chambers. My reloaded LC brass works great in both chamber configurations.

I would suggest to the OP that he try adjusting the die down a smidgen more, getting a firmer cam-over.

 

[MtnCreek]

If the die will not restore a case to minimum length get your money back, if a die will not full length size a case get your money back, full length sizing and minimum length have the same meaning. If the press does not have the ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing, get a stronger press.

He has a stronger press, but it's slower than the progressive. More likely than not, he can use the die, as is, on the Rockchucker, but in order to use it on the progressive, he will need to modify the die, or overstress the press. I am the fan of modifying the die.

Sorry Mr. Guffy, I had to do it.

 

[hentown]

Eureka!

 

[fguffey]

“Why the hell do you think people trim cases??” For some 100,000 words is not enough, full length sizing to minimum length has nothing to do with case length, full length sizing to minimum length is about sizing the case from the head of the case to the shoulder. Not my job to apologize to you for wasting your time, I did say it was about keeping up with with two thoughts at one time. This discussion started with case head protrusion above the L. E. Wilson case gage, the case has one head and one neck, the head of the case is protruding after full length sizing, the question was. “Is this OK”

There is only one correct answer, “NO” if the case is full length sized it will not protrude, the Wilson case gage for many years has a design that is beyond most reloadrs ability to comprehend (exhibited by those that have referred to it as a drop-in gage), the case shoulder sets on a ‘datum’, the datum in the Wilson case gage has a radius, do I expect anyone to examine the gage? NO! Examining the gage for function and design would take effort in the part of the reloader?

Back to the gage, the Wilson gage measures from the datum/shoulder back to the head of the case and from the datum/shoulder to the mouth of the case, combining the two measurements gives case length, a person with shop skills can test the Wilson case gage for accuracy, someone with shop skills does not necessary mean a reloader.



All, thanks for the info, suggestions, and support -- I'll get the die over to my buddy's machine shop, knock off a couple thousands and take it from there. I'll update as it progresses.

EM



It means nothing to me, as Floyd Ireson said “What is it to me this noisy ride”, again: When full length sizing a case to minimum length check the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, all the case that does not get stuffed into the die will be holding the die off the shell holder. The LNL has adapters that aids in removing dies, problem the shell plate will not allow the case to be removed with the die because of the shell plate. Anyone with shop skills can measure the gap between the die and shell holder/plate, one more time, if the case does not get stuffed into the die when sizing the case will protrude from the L.E. Wilson case gage.

It is not fair, there is nothing I can do about it, my dies, shell holders, cases and chambers have a correlation, or I have enough shop skill to correlate the die, shell holder, case and chamber, if ‘IT’ does not work, I know why the case will not chamber, I know when the press, die and shell holder fails to size a case to minimum length. I make tools, I have Wilson case gages, I make chamber gages, and I measure before and again after, the most common response to measur before and again after: “I see no reason to measure the case length before, I see no advantage” Again, I measure before and again after.

I have no ideal why the choir thinks I am talking to them. Get your money back? A reloader that does not know if the case and die combination is full length sizing or if they do not know if the shell holder and die combination has the ability is left with grinding, one more time, it is possible to determine how much stock removal is necessary, and I do not recommend a lathe, finding someone with an inline, angle and butt grinder could be difficult.

F, Guffey

 

[hentown]

We're on the same page, just not semantically. I didn't read your entire post, because I find 1000 words generally superfluously verbose on forums like this. My apologies.

Never heard of properly bumping the shoulder referred to as "sizing to minimum length." That's certainly a new one on me.

However, it's entirely possible that there's nothing wrong with the OP's die(s) and that he's just not turning the die down far enough, or the LNL has a poorly-designed shellplate, as did my Toadmaster. See, I said all that, using a paucity of verbiage.

 

[fguffey]

We're on the same page, just not semantically. I didn't read your entire post, because I find 1000 words generally superfluously verbose on forums like this. My apologies.

Never heard of properly bumping the shoulder referred to as "sizing to minimum length." That's certainly a new one on me.

However, it's entirely possible that there's nothing wrong with the OP's die(s) and that he's just not turning the die down far enough, or the LNL has a poorly-designed shellplate, as did my Toadmaster. See, I said all that, using a paucity of verbiage.



“However, it's entirely possible that there's nothing wrong with the OP's die(s) and that he's just not turning the die down far enough, or the LNL has a poorly-designed shellplate, as did my Toadmaster. See, I said all that, using a paucity of verbiage. “

“On a forum like this”?

However, you are correct and it is entirely possible there is nothing wrong with his die. I said nothing about the design of the LNL, I do not have one, I do have other presses with shell plates that can hang over the side of the ram as in cantilevered, again, I am not a fan of abusing a press. Mstreddy has a question about a problem, the number one answer? Grind the die and or shell holder. My opinion, that is mindless. Between the problem and remedy there are test that should be done first to determine if the die has the ability to size the case or if the press has the ability to overcome the resistance of case sizing. In the perfect world there is the new unfired case, after that there is the once fired case, somewhere after the 4th firing the reloader must consider the effect the chamber had on the case when it was fired and the effect multiple firings had on the case. If the case is holding the die off the shell holder Mstreddy must consider the presses ability to size the case is being exceeded, screwing the die down further , in my opinion, is not the answer, if Mstreddy has already lowered the die and is now concerned about the flex/strain on the press.

Again, in the old days a press was tested with a strain gage and or deflection gage, the press was not tested with a case that offered more resistance to sizing than the press could overcome. A few presses found to have excessive flex had an adapt-ter kit available to reduce the flex and increase the presses ability to overcome resistance to sizing.

There are more techniques and methods for testing a cases ability to resist sizing, “On a forum like this”?, no, there is grinding the die and or shell holder or both, after that there is nothing. It matters not, on the outside chance there is someone that is looking for a technique and or method for deterring if the case is whipping the press or if the press is whipping the case I take the time. Then there is grinding the die to increase its ability to reduce the length of the case from head of the case to its shoulder, if the die is a full length sizer die and is within specifications after grinding the die will have the ability to reduce the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder, as we all know that would increase case travel in the chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[hentown]

I briefly considered grinding my Lee .223 die so it would work on my Lee Toadmaster press, but wisely opted to just junk the Toadmaster and go to a Dillon 650. I don't have any problems resizing .223 brass with either my Lee or RCBS dies. Both require a slight cam-over, in order to correctly bump the shoulder. That camming-over hasn't been an issue with me for tens of thousands of rounds. Besides, the 650 has a lifetime no b.s. warranty!

I also haven't loaded on a Hornady press, so I don't know if the design of the shellplate is contributing to the OP's problem. Could be that a good, strong dose of Paxil would cure the "problem"!!!!

 

[Blue68f100]

I have the LNL and have FL sized rem 7mm and 308 brass without any issues. If it's taking a lot more force than you think it should I would suggest trying some Imperial Sizing wax. But with the LNL you may need to bump the shell plate + 1/2 turn depending on case lube.

 

[mstreddy]

Some pics

OK, I don't have the photo skills some of you here have. But here are a couple pics of what's happening.
This is the die and bushing pushing up out of the top of the LNL press on full ram upstroke. I adjusted the die to touch shellplate and then gave another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. It does not fully resize the cases.



This is a case resized using the same RCBS die on my Lyman All American Turret -- It is fully sized and what I'm trying to show is the case in the Wilson gauge with the straight edge on it, showing that the case is at or below the top shelf.


I'm going to try to take some worthy pictures of the not fully resized cases in the Wilson gauge. My earlier attempts were crap.

So, to recap, the die works fine in the single stage and turret presses, but does not work well with the LNL. It is NOT a force or effort issue. I am using Imperial wax, and Someone above mentioned that what I want is to be able to resize on the LNL. Yes, that is it exactly. And, as Walkalong mentioned, he had the same issue.
Walkalong -- how much did you knock off your die? I hit about .003" off with a flat file, but still the same. I went with that and stopped, since I had about that much of the case sticking out of the gauge. Measured with feeler gauges no less...

EM

 

[Walkalong]

That bushing is letting the die move up more than most of mine. You might try a new bushing.

I took just a few thousandths off the die at first and it did not help, the same as you, so I went for the gusto and removed about .020 more. I did not measure it, just eyeballed it. The die now sits about .010 off the shell plate. Used my feeler gauge to check that.

 

[fguffey]

“This is the die and bushing pushing up out of the top of the LNL press on full ram upstroke”

Mstreddy, you used a straight edge and a feeler gage? Imma so proud. Now use the feeler gage to measure the gap between the straight edge and L. E. Wilson case gage to acquire a reading in thousandths as in protrusion above the case gage. No gap means the case is full length sized/minimum length.

The picture for me would be disturbing as in “die and bushing pushing out of the top of top of the LNL press...” The gap between the lock and load bushing should not have a gap between the bushing and tool head.

If the case was whipping the press the gap would be between the deck of the shell holder/plate and die. the RCBS 308 die is short too short for the bushing?

Remember when the die is shortened by grinding the die is no longer a full length sizer die, after stock removal it becomes a full length sizer die less X, as in X is the amount of stock that was removed. As suggested, I recommended checking the die for its ability to restore a fired case to minimum length, you proved that when you full length sized your cases in the single stage press.

And I said I do not have a LNL press, the gap is a problem innless Hornady has a limiter as in before a reloader can render their press scrap the bushing releases pressure, something like a limiter or override found on other equipment outside reloading. I have a pump with ceramic pistons, I can crank it up to 2,400 PSI +, it has an adjustable relief valve.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

"I took just a few thousandths off the die at first and it did not help, the same as you, so I went for the gusto and removed about .020 more. I did not measure it, just eyeballed it. The die now sits about .010 off the shell plate. Used my feeler gauge to check that"

"The die sets about .010" off the shell plate". When I want to set the die off the shell plate I place a feeler gage on top the shell holde/plate then adjust the die down until it contacts the feeler gage, then I secure the die to the press with the lock ring. While securing the die to the press with the lock ring I hold the die in an effort to prevent it from turning.

After securing the die, I verify the adjustment with the feeler gage, My old 70+ year old book says feeler gages do not last long, to find feeler gage in the old book I am required to look under 'Thickness Gage',

F. Guffey

 

[ranger335v]

"..the gist was that the mil brass would end up sticking out past the top shelf of the gauge even on properly sized brass. Is this correct? "

No. If a case is 'properly sized' the head WILL fit a drop-in case gage.