winchester 231 inconsistent metering

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springfield2

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Hi everyone,I got back into reloading after a five year lay off from it.didnt have the time.anyway i had a couple of 1 pounders from last time i reloaded.I have my lock and load press set at 4.3 gtains.Anyway i have had no issues my press five years later was still throwing 4.3 grains.The 1 pounders from 5 years ago meter 4.3 grains.The strange thing is i just bought an 8 pound container and have been having issues with my gun not going to slide lock.I weighed my powder from my 1 pounders from 5 years ago and they both weigh 4.3 on my scale.i weighed the powder from my 8 pound container and it weighs 4.1 grains.1 have an rcbs 505 scale so it isnt digital.i took all the powder out of my powder measure put it back and took my other powder from my old can put that in the powder measure weighed that again 4.3 grains.I then once again took that powder out of the powder measure and put in the powder from the 8 pound container weighed it 4.1 grains once again.i repeated this process four times and each time the powder weighed the same as it did.4.3 with one container.the old can.The new container 4.1.like i said i completely removed the powder from the measure each time i weghed them both.How is this possible if it is the same powder.Is it possible that they changed the powder?it looks the same.My scale doesn't lie.it's not digital you can clearly see the new powder weghs less by my beam.I have an idpa state match coming up so i need to figure this out.Has anyone ever heard of this before.i never had problems with the old 231 before but this stuff i don't. know.
 
Normal with a measure set at the same volume. This is why i dont mix different lots of powders.

By volume using IMR4198, there can be as much as 1.1 gr difference in weight. 18.5 gr vs 19.6 gr. with the measure at the same setting. This was older Canada vs Australia.
 
Isn't the answer obvious?




The density of the old 231 and the new 231 is different.
 
apparently, hogdon, or whom ever is making the powder now, has changed the formula between now and five years ago. five years ago i think winchester still had the rights to the powder. suggest you double check your charge when switching those containers.

luck,

murf
 
You don't state what powder measure you are using, but I would just adjust it to throw whatever weight you need/want, with the powder you intend to use.
Load a few and range test,
:D
 
fxvr5 said:
Isn't the answer obvious?




The density of the old 231 and the new 231 is different.
Click to expand...
murf said:
apparently, hogdon, or whom ever is making the powder now, has changed the formula between now and five years ago. five years ago i think winchester still had the rights to the powder. suggest you double check your charge when switching those containers.

luck,

murf
Click to expand...
 
The powder from the new container which weighs out 4.1 grains on scale has just as much if not more felt recoil than powder from old can that weghs 4.3 grains on scale.the 4.1 grain seems hotter.How is it hotter if it is the same powder with less grains.2 tenths less.They must have really changed something.the old 231 you could get light recoil with 4.3 it's like they made it snappier for some reason with less grains.So is it actually 4.1 or something else.If i went to 4.3 with the new powder it would feel like 4.5 and i may as well be shooting factory.Any suggestions on a powder with low felt recoil that compares to 231.Of course the gun would still have to function.I would be looking for something comparable with 231 for recoil and still have cycle properly
 
springfield2 said:
The powder from the new container which weighs out 4.1 grains on scale has just as much if not more felt recoil than powder from old can that weghs 4.3 grains on scale.the 4.1 grain seems hotter.How is it hotter if it is the same powder with less grains.2 tenths less.They must have really changed something.the old 231 you could get light recoil with 4.3 it's like they made it snappier for some reason with less grains.So is it actually 4.1 or something else.If i went to 4.3 with the new powder it would feel like 4.5 and i may as well be shooting factory.Any suggestions on a powder with low felt recoil that compares to 231.Of course the gun would still have to function.I would be looking for something comparable with 231 for recoil and still have cycle properly
Click to expand...
Wow you can feel a recoil difference for 0.2 grains of W231...:what:.
So, just to recap (for me), the same volume of "New powder" weighs less (4.1 not 4.3) AND causes gun function problems like the slide not locking back (from 1st post:"The strange thing is i just bought an 8 pound container and have been having issues with my gun not going to slide lock.").
Now, from this post, the new powder loaded at 4.1 gr (by weight) has more "felt recoil" and seems "hotter".

One would consider that "the slide not locking back" and "more felt recoil/seems hotter" as conflicting statements.
Without trying to explain/understand what the causes are, just start over in developing a load with the new powder because that's what you will be using, as that seems to be the only option now.
For me, the "why's" cannot be answered here.
good luck,
:D
edit:
You don't state caliber or bullet weight, and I hate to assume, but if it's 9mm/124, here's what bds has to say...
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...auses-malfunction.822291/page-2#post-10567448
 
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Powders are made in lots. The lot number is on the container. The reason for this is canister powders are blended to achieve a certain ballistic level, +/- a percentage. Let's say the percentage is +/- 5%, which doesn't sound like much. However, if one lot is at 5% on the minus side of the parameters, and another lot is at 5% on the plus side, you now have a 10% difference between the two powder lots, but still within the manufacturing specifications for that powder.

This is specifically why you're told over and over to work up your loads when you change lots of powder. Most times the difference won't amount to much, if any, but other times, like your instance, it can amount to a big difference.

The bottom line is, you're going to have to work up your load with the new lot of powder, since it's in spec. for Winchester 231.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
As Fred posted, different lots of powder can vary a little. Always check a new lot. It may throw the exact same weight, or it may be high or low a tenth or two. If it is the same, mix them, if it isn't, don't. Always double check weights with a new lot, then load a few at the old weight (even if you have to adjust the measure) and see if they shoot the same before loading a big batch.

Stream of consciousness is tough to read. :)
 
Are you shooting the same load as you did from the powder you had previously. Before the 8 pounderi mean whay grains are you shootingfrom the new can?Did you check to see what your powder weighed after you started to have slide lock issues.Did you get a wrong weight from your powder aside from what your were use to using.Did you weigh both powders and get inconsistency like i did?I know i said it seems snappier at 4.1 and it is and i want to figure it out.The one comment i maid aboutmore recoil and not slide locking may seem odd because if i have more recoil then the slide would have the umph! to go all the way back i have numerous things going on all at once and some of them are intertwined. Ibought a wolfe recoil spring for my xdm 9mm and it was great for the first 4 idpa matches.within the last 2 weeks i have had slide not locking back .Today alone i had 2 incidences where the slide kicked back to eject the case but wound up with the spent case being pinched off between the slideand the front of the gun with a live round coming right behind it.I have an 18lb wolf recoil spring right now.They said it was 18 lbs but it has some really tention.I was wondering if my spring is to heavy for my 4.3 load I'm using.The match i shot today i used the 8lb can which gave me 4.1 .I didn't. Know it weighed 4.1 out of my measure until i got back home .what made me weigh the powder was all the failures to slide lock.I don't know if a 16 lb spring would alliw the slide to come back all the way or not.its a lighter spring.i just think that other spring is just coming back forward. To fast not giving the case a chance to get out.I'm. Just trying to rack my brain to figure all this out .I only have a week before this state match.I'm really in desperation mode now.I've got a lot of money spent on this trip so far.I somehow need to find away to seperate one issue from the other.Also my hits are all over the target now around the same time frame as all the other things I've. mentioned.If anyone has any idea or suggestions i could try please let me know.I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT!
 
Adjust your powder measure to drop the load you originally had with the other lot of powder and see if that fixes your problem(s). You'll know within shooting a few rounds, rather than changing springs, etc. It sounds like you're trying to game this, and if you are, it's a little late to be changing things before a big match.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Reload some to 4.1 and some to 4.3, then take them to the range and use a Chronograph to see the difference and also check for accuracy. Instead assuming that all is equal from past to present, rework your loads as if this is the first time.

LeftyTSGC
 
ReloaderFred said:
Adjust your powder measure to drop the load you originally had with the other lot of powder and see if that fixes your problem(s). You'll know within shooting a few rounds, rather than changing springs, etc. It sounds like you're trying to game this, and if you are, it's a little late to be changing things before a big match.

Hope this helps.

Fred
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for all the info i will try some of these things.but any idea why the 4.1 grains feels as if it has more recoil than the 4.3 grain of the old can of powder.because if it's actually 4.1 you would think there woulf be less recoil.
 
Unless i missed it above? what bullet are you using? have you measured the Bullet OAL and its seating depth relative to previous bullets. It is possible that your bullet is seating deeper into the case, thus causing more pressure with the 4.1 load. Bullet designs have been changing over the years, the same bullet you used could have the ogive at a different measure distance. Things to think about.

LeftyTSGC.
 
LeftyTSGC said:
Unless i missed it above? what bullet are you using? have you measured the Bullet OAL and its seating depth relative to previous bullets. It is possible that your bullet is seating deeper into the case, thus causing more pressure with the 4.1 load. Bullet designs have been changing over the years, the same bullet you used could have the ogive at a different measure distance. Things to think about.

LeftyTSGC.
Click to expand...

LeftyTSGC said:
Unless i missed it above? what bullet are you using? have you measured the Bullet OAL and its seating depth relative to previous bullets. It is possible that your bullet is seating deeper into the case, thus causing more pressure with the 4.1 load. Bullet designs have been changing over the years, the same bullet you used could have the ogive at a different measure distance. Things to think about.

LeftyTSGC.
Click to expand...
 
springfield2 - Would you please make it easier for us to help you by not posting in a large solid wall of text...it is very hard to read and understand what you are saying/asking.

This close to a match, your likely safest/most reliable route to follow would be to just buy some factory ammo
 
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I am closing this one.

Twice now we have gone down this road and twice we have failed. I would follow 9mmepiphany's advice and buy some factory ammo for now.

Anytime you feel up to trying again with a well thought out, well written, coherent post, feel free to try again.
 
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