stubbicatt
Member
Firearm: Winchester 94 chambered in the original US smokeless rifle cartridge, 30-30 Winchester or 30 WCF. Rear bolt locking lugs.
1) Due to the locking lugs in the rear of the bolt, I have read that the cases always stretch on firing. Can one resize his cases as he would a bolt actioned rifle, only pressing the shoulder back .001" or so? Or should one strive for a .004" setback as he would with a semi automatic rifle? There is no substitute for experience, so I ask so as to learn from the experience of others. Thanks in advance.
2) (Sometimes I get all wrapped around a discussion like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" without asking some preliminary questions like "are there angels?" This is one of those.) I will be shooting 180 grain cast bullets in Cowboy Lever Action rifle silhouette with this rifle. -- I have heard the experienced (read "old") shooters say that jacketed bullets with different construction will "grab" the 200 meter rams better, thus assuring a hit is translated into enough energy to knock 'em over. I've heard the old timers say Sierra bullets have longer dwell time on the target at a given velocity, thus imparting more energy to the target, than do Speer bullets. The consensus seems to be that the Sierra cores are of a dead soft lead alloy rather than one made of a harder alloy in the Speers, and this factor increases dwell time on the target due to less rapid fragmentation. In essence the softer core allows the bullet integrity to last a millisecond longer, or long enough to more efficiently transfer what energy there is in that collision to the target sufficient to topple it.
Q: I wonder, does this accurately describe a jacketed bullet phenomenon?
Q: If this does sound right, do you suppose the same principles apply to cast bullets? Which aspects of cast bullet construction will maximize their dwell time?
A) In the example of cast bullets, could it be that the longer the bullet is, of a given alloy, the longer the dwell time on a steel target, and the more momentum is imparted? Conversely, given two bullets of identical dimension, could a softer less brittle alloy maintain contact with the target longer to transfer more energy to the target rather than expending the energy in fragmenting and bouncing away from the target?
B) Taking bullet construction out of the analysis for a moment, if Energy equals mass times velocity squared (E=MxV^2), reason would suggest for a given mass of a bullet, more energy is imparted to a steel target as velocity increases, right? Yet lighter faster bullets are less effective in toppling these steel critters. This suggests to me that it must be some characteristic of the heavier bullets which impart their energy to the steel, as slower heavier bullets seem to be more effective when they connect on the rams.
Could bullet weight, length, and alloy composition account for anomalous behavior I have witnessed with my 32-40, and other competitors' mildly loaded 38-55s and 40 caliber black powder cartridge rifles?? I shoot a 200 grain slug in the 32-40, at maybe 1400 fps and when I hit the 200 meter rams, they fall quite reliably, as do 1200 fps 250 grain 38-55's. The 32-40 slug is a very soft alloy, 20-1, yet it is heavier than, longer than, and traveling at a significantly lower velocity than, a 170 grain 30-30 jacketed bullet at 2,000+ fps. Sometimes other competitors' 30-30's won't knock 'em down.
C) -- Within reason, the higher the velocity one launches a cast bullet of given length, if one wants to retain accuracy, the harder the alloy that is employed. Softer alloys have a tendency to strip in the rifling as velocity outpaces their strength. The harder the alloy, using conventional lead/antimony/tin mixes, the more brittle the bullet tends to be.
Do you suppose there is an ideal alloy, and an ideal velocity, perhaps in the 1400 to 1600 fps range where softer alloys tend to be more accurate, that would more effectively knock over the heavy rams using a cast bullet?
I almost think I am trying to describe some sort of shooting example of the "triple point" in chemistry here where temperature and ambient pressures dictate the point at which water can maintain a solid/liquid/gas state at the same time. Here the variables are alloy composition, bullet length, and impact velocity.
Stated otherwise, for a given bore diameter, is there an ideal alloy/bullet length/velocity that maximizes energy transfer to a stationary, heavy, steel target one is trying to topple? I'm guessing that there is, and at least initially I am considering to keep alloy softer, and velocities in the 1400 to 1600 fps range. I reckon ~13 - 14 grains of IMR 4227 or a suitable charge of 4759 or AA5744 to duplicate this velocity is where I will start...
What do you think? Am I on to something here, or barking up the wrong tree?
1) Due to the locking lugs in the rear of the bolt, I have read that the cases always stretch on firing. Can one resize his cases as he would a bolt actioned rifle, only pressing the shoulder back .001" or so? Or should one strive for a .004" setback as he would with a semi automatic rifle? There is no substitute for experience, so I ask so as to learn from the experience of others. Thanks in advance.
2) (Sometimes I get all wrapped around a discussion like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" without asking some preliminary questions like "are there angels?" This is one of those.) I will be shooting 180 grain cast bullets in Cowboy Lever Action rifle silhouette with this rifle. -- I have heard the experienced (read "old") shooters say that jacketed bullets with different construction will "grab" the 200 meter rams better, thus assuring a hit is translated into enough energy to knock 'em over. I've heard the old timers say Sierra bullets have longer dwell time on the target at a given velocity, thus imparting more energy to the target, than do Speer bullets. The consensus seems to be that the Sierra cores are of a dead soft lead alloy rather than one made of a harder alloy in the Speers, and this factor increases dwell time on the target due to less rapid fragmentation. In essence the softer core allows the bullet integrity to last a millisecond longer, or long enough to more efficiently transfer what energy there is in that collision to the target sufficient to topple it.
Q: I wonder, does this accurately describe a jacketed bullet phenomenon?
Q: If this does sound right, do you suppose the same principles apply to cast bullets? Which aspects of cast bullet construction will maximize their dwell time?
A) In the example of cast bullets, could it be that the longer the bullet is, of a given alloy, the longer the dwell time on a steel target, and the more momentum is imparted? Conversely, given two bullets of identical dimension, could a softer less brittle alloy maintain contact with the target longer to transfer more energy to the target rather than expending the energy in fragmenting and bouncing away from the target?
B) Taking bullet construction out of the analysis for a moment, if Energy equals mass times velocity squared (E=MxV^2), reason would suggest for a given mass of a bullet, more energy is imparted to a steel target as velocity increases, right? Yet lighter faster bullets are less effective in toppling these steel critters. This suggests to me that it must be some characteristic of the heavier bullets which impart their energy to the steel, as slower heavier bullets seem to be more effective when they connect on the rams.
Could bullet weight, length, and alloy composition account for anomalous behavior I have witnessed with my 32-40, and other competitors' mildly loaded 38-55s and 40 caliber black powder cartridge rifles?? I shoot a 200 grain slug in the 32-40, at maybe 1400 fps and when I hit the 200 meter rams, they fall quite reliably, as do 1200 fps 250 grain 38-55's. The 32-40 slug is a very soft alloy, 20-1, yet it is heavier than, longer than, and traveling at a significantly lower velocity than, a 170 grain 30-30 jacketed bullet at 2,000+ fps. Sometimes other competitors' 30-30's won't knock 'em down.
C) -- Within reason, the higher the velocity one launches a cast bullet of given length, if one wants to retain accuracy, the harder the alloy that is employed. Softer alloys have a tendency to strip in the rifling as velocity outpaces their strength. The harder the alloy, using conventional lead/antimony/tin mixes, the more brittle the bullet tends to be.
Do you suppose there is an ideal alloy, and an ideal velocity, perhaps in the 1400 to 1600 fps range where softer alloys tend to be more accurate, that would more effectively knock over the heavy rams using a cast bullet?
I almost think I am trying to describe some sort of shooting example of the "triple point" in chemistry here where temperature and ambient pressures dictate the point at which water can maintain a solid/liquid/gas state at the same time. Here the variables are alloy composition, bullet length, and impact velocity.
Stated otherwise, for a given bore diameter, is there an ideal alloy/bullet length/velocity that maximizes energy transfer to a stationary, heavy, steel target one is trying to topple? I'm guessing that there is, and at least initially I am considering to keep alloy softer, and velocities in the 1400 to 1600 fps range. I reckon ~13 - 14 grains of IMR 4227 or a suitable charge of 4759 or AA5744 to duplicate this velocity is where I will start...
What do you think? Am I on to something here, or barking up the wrong tree?
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