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Charlie98
Member
Actually, I've gotten 3 really good replies, and has me mulling it over. It's very likely I will exhaust the H4350 option first, before heading out into No Man's Land... and another powder.
Winchester 6.5 StaBall in the 6.5CM... how good is it?
- Thread starter Charlie98
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Actually, I've gotten 3 really good replies, and has me mulling it over. It's very likely I will exhaust the H4350 option first, before heading out into No Man's Land... and another powder.
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Charlie98
Member
Well... it's a moot point, Hodgdon discontinued it, and all of the Enduron powders. I'm not saying it wasn't an accurate powder... and I'm not saying it was inaccurate, but I was running max loads and not getting the velocity I wanted.
I get 2730 FPS with 42 gr. of H4350, 2620 FPS with either 42.5 gr. of Staball 6.5, or 41.2 gr. of RL-16. I have to load H4350 to the lands which results in a bullet much too long to fit in my magazine. I didn't notice any increase in accuracy doing that with either Staball or RL-16. Both can be loaded to magazine length with several different 140 gr. VLD bullets. My gun has a long throat so any magazine length bullet has a long jump to the lands.
Who is they. I use several types of shooters world and I use precision and varget. Match rifle and IMR4064 for my garand and .308 loads. Match rifle is still 28$. Precision has jumped to 45$. Used to be 17.99 for both
berettaprofessor
Member
Staball 6.5 (41.6 grains) and H4350 (41.3 grains) shot equal 1/2 MOA groups of Hornady 147 ELDs in my Savage Axis, but the H4350 is 100fps faster, 2650 versus 2550.
Internet dwellers. Pretty consistently mentioned.
JEBruns
Member
I did go out and get that 8lber yesterday. Bass Pro (and I'd assume Cabela's) is giving 15% off pretty much everything in the store on Monday's through Xmas (10% on guns and loaded ammo). You need to use your BP/Cabela's CC to get the discount. 8lbs of H4350 cost me $353 out the door. Still not cheap, but cheaper than any other source I can find, including mail order.
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Charlie98
Member
Internet dwellers. Pretty consistently mentioned.
A lot of people get criticized for asking dumb questions on the forums... like 'how do you like StaBall 6.5?' There are 2 truths to the answer...
1) Yes, indeed, every rifle/bullet/shooter combo will be different, and where, say, SB6.5 would work well for one person, it may not work well for another... and that's ok.
2) If you read enough substantive reviews and comments... and for that, you have to be able to read through some of the irrelevant comments... you can come up with a general consensus, and use that to guide you on your path.
When I first started loading for 6.5CM, I had no idea where to start, and reading a loading manual didn't do much other than give me data for 14 different powders. At the time, I was on the Savage forum, where a lot of the guys were dumping a lot of time and effort into working up loads for the 6.5CM... those comments, and other comments read elsewhere, including THR... helped steer me to my first successful handloads for the 6.5. Other shooters comments about IMR4451 validated what I was seeing as well, namely lower velocity with a given bullet weight. I've read good comments about StaBall 6.5... but I wanted to see what you guys had to say as well... and I have gotten some good answers. I guess you could put it down to 'hoary internet lore' if you want, but what people have actually DONE is often more valuable than a proposal (load data) in a book. I saved a buttload of components and time using the suggestions I found from Them. Again, you have to be savvy enough to cull out the nonsense.
Regarding loading data tables... I'm very familiar with loading for the .308, and load for it in 3 very different capacities. There are powders listed in any load data table that I would NEVER use based on what I know about those powders, and how they behave, so 'go get a loading manual!' doesn't really work as a substantive answer.
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Charlie98
Member
Nice! Don't have a Cabelas CC, unfortunately...
I may wind up grabbing that 8# at the LGS, anyway. 8# is only about 1300 rounds of 6.5ManBun, and I'll certainly load that in the next few years. If my brother winds up with something else, likely a 7mm or .30 round in any event, I'll bet H4350 will work there, too, if IMR4064 doesn't.
JEBruns
Member
Then you could save even more money. I think they give you like a $60 credit when you get a new CC through them.
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Charlie98
Member
I wish I had something more concrete to share with you, but I'm just now starting to play around with 6.5 Staball. I picked up a pound a few years ago, not long after it first came out, and I just haven't tried it in anything yet. Up until now, I've been using H4350, R16, and IMR 4451 (I know it's discontinued---I still have a bit left before my last pound is gone) in my Creedmoors. I'm mostly tagging in here to see if I can glean any useful nuggets from others' experience with this powder. But, I'll also share what I'm up to.
My first range session with it was this past weekend, so I'm definitely in the infant stages of working with this powder. I recently picked up some small rifle primer brass and I decided to see if I could develop a load using that brass, 130 Berger AR Hybrids, 6.5 Staball, and CCI 450s. And, I want this load to shoot in both of my Creedmoor rifles (one with AICS mags but one BDL style, so the bullet is going to have to jump). I'm not sure exactly why, but maybe if I decide I want to load for my Creedmoors on my progressive press this would work without me having to swap out the priming system. I don't know. Mostly I just wanted to play with new brass and a powder that's been collecting dust. Also, R16 has gottent expensive and scarce, and 4451 has been discontinued, and I'm interested in keeping an alternative to H4350 around.
In any event, I haven't done much with it yet. Right now, I'm just trying to find pressure and get a sense for the velocity it will give me. I shot 10 shots at .3 grain intervals over a chronograph to the same point of aim at 100 yards. Total group was about 1.5." But, 8 of those shots were within 0.6." The last two were higher than the others, together, and I think were the last two (highest) charges I shot. No pressure signs, and my top charge clocked at 2912 from a 24" barrel over my Caldwell chronograph. That's faster than I've been able to get with H4350 and that bullet, though not quite as fast as I've seen with R16. I'll probably continue to work up a bit to see where pressure signs show up at (I've got no direct data for this bullet-powder combo, so I'm having to estimate a max charge), but I may wait and see if Santa Clause brings me one of the new Garmin chronographs for Christmas. I would feel more confident in my velocity data if he did (my Caldwell is temperamental and not always repeatable).
It's not a lot to go on. But so far the powder is behaving roughly like I expected it would. This initial10-shot ladder doesn't really tell me if my powder-bullet combination will work, but it does occasionally tell me if one won't work before I spend a bunch of time and components on real load devlopment, and it lets me test for pressure and rough velocity at the same time. I won't be able to say anything definitive until I do some real load development, but no red flags yet.
Good luck with your efforts.
My first range session with it was this past weekend, so I'm definitely in the infant stages of working with this powder. I recently picked up some small rifle primer brass and I decided to see if I could develop a load using that brass, 130 Berger AR Hybrids, 6.5 Staball, and CCI 450s. And, I want this load to shoot in both of my Creedmoor rifles (one with AICS mags but one BDL style, so the bullet is going to have to jump). I'm not sure exactly why, but maybe if I decide I want to load for my Creedmoors on my progressive press this would work without me having to swap out the priming system. I don't know. Mostly I just wanted to play with new brass and a powder that's been collecting dust. Also, R16 has gottent expensive and scarce, and 4451 has been discontinued, and I'm interested in keeping an alternative to H4350 around.
In any event, I haven't done much with it yet. Right now, I'm just trying to find pressure and get a sense for the velocity it will give me. I shot 10 shots at .3 grain intervals over a chronograph to the same point of aim at 100 yards. Total group was about 1.5." But, 8 of those shots were within 0.6." The last two were higher than the others, together, and I think were the last two (highest) charges I shot. No pressure signs, and my top charge clocked at 2912 from a 24" barrel over my Caldwell chronograph. That's faster than I've been able to get with H4350 and that bullet, though not quite as fast as I've seen with R16. I'll probably continue to work up a bit to see where pressure signs show up at (I've got no direct data for this bullet-powder combo, so I'm having to estimate a max charge), but I may wait and see if Santa Clause brings me one of the new Garmin chronographs for Christmas. I would feel more confident in my velocity data if he did (my Caldwell is temperamental and not always repeatable).
It's not a lot to go on. But so far the powder is behaving roughly like I expected it would. This initial10-shot ladder doesn't really tell me if my powder-bullet combination will work, but it does occasionally tell me if one won't work before I spend a bunch of time and components on real load devlopment, and it lets me test for pressure and rough velocity at the same time. I won't be able to say anything definitive until I do some real load development, but no red flags yet.
Good luck with your efforts.
Using Staball 6.5 in my Savage 6mm Creedmore I have shot several one hole 5 shot groups, very happy with it so far. Last spring I started using Staball Match in my 6mm br it seems to be more consistent than the H322 I was using. Now if I can find more of it.
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Charlie98
Member
Do you think StaBall Match would be too fast for the 6.5CM? I'm having a hard time trying to pigeonhole SBMatch. It's burn rate is around Varget/BL-C(2), according to the Hodgdon chart, but is also right next to W748... which reminds me a whole bunch of the IMR/Enduron powders, i.e. the standard IMR powders with their 'green' counterparts.
Lennyjoe
Member
My initial load development for my 6.5 CM and 140 gr Hornady SST’s started with IMR 4350 and ended there. Worked so well for me out of the Axis II I didn’t even try Varget or anything else.
I get good groups with IMR4350 too, but I had already worked up loads for H4350, RL-16 and StaBall 6.5. I still want to try out Superperformance and Win 760 with 130 or 120 grain bullets.
Lennyjoe
Member
Think I’m gonna try some 129’s this spring.
LocoGringo
Member
I don't know how much my response will be applicable, but here goes...
I have started experimenting with 6.5 StaBALL in my 7mm-08. It's remarkable how much MORE ball powder fits in the case than the stick powders like Varget or H4895 that I use for my .308 rifles. For this reason, according to my research, when you approach max loads, DON'T go over them as pressures increase exponentially.
Also from my research, the 6.5 StaBALL powder burn rate is more appropriate for the heavier for caliber bullets in 7mm-08 (like 160 grain +) than the more common weights (140 grain) of bullets. I've actually been disappointed with the accuracy results out of my 7mm-08. I don't know if it's the same for 6.5 Creedmoor, but that is something I found interesting, so I'm stopping my 140 grain bullet tests and will be trying it with the 165 grain SST sometime in the future.
6.5 StaBALL is supposed to be ideal for 6.5 Creedmoor, so I'd try the 1 lb can first, but get that testing done quickly to see if it's worth pursuing and getting the 8 lb jug.
I have started experimenting with 6.5 StaBALL in my 7mm-08. It's remarkable how much MORE ball powder fits in the case than the stick powders like Varget or H4895 that I use for my .308 rifles. For this reason, according to my research, when you approach max loads, DON'T go over them as pressures increase exponentially.
Also from my research, the 6.5 StaBALL powder burn rate is more appropriate for the heavier for caliber bullets in 7mm-08 (like 160 grain +) than the more common weights (140 grain) of bullets. I've actually been disappointed with the accuracy results out of my 7mm-08. I don't know if it's the same for 6.5 Creedmoor, but that is something I found interesting, so I'm stopping my 140 grain bullet tests and will be trying it with the 165 grain SST sometime in the future.
6.5 StaBALL is supposed to be ideal for 6.5 Creedmoor, so I'd try the 1 lb can first, but get that testing done quickly to see if it's worth pursuing and getting the 8 lb jug.
Hugger-4641
Member
I've had good results with it in 30-06 and 178eldx. I expect it will work fine in .308 and .270 also, I just haven't tried it yet in those.
LiveLife
Member
Well, I found a lot of powders but they were powders I already had or pistol powders. I was hoping to find some Varget/AR Comp/TAC/Benchmark/H322/4064 etc. but found HP-38/No 2/H335/BL-C(2)/BE-86/WSF/etc. along with other Accurate pistol/rifle powders.
Good news was there were plenty of primers available (I already have plenty from previous stocking up and newly purchased Fiocchi SR/CCI No. 42) with confirmation from store staff of increasing powder availability.
So, I will do my work up with StaBall Match and other powders I have like BL-C(2) and may consider doing an online order when free HazMat/shipping is offered as I noticed 8 lb container prices are getting below $250.
BTW, I didn't even look at 22LR as I am well stocked up from 2022-2023 and recent purchases.
OK, back to OP
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JEBruns
Member
I started with IMR 4350 and Varget, with ELD-M Hornady bullets, 120-147gr. I get great groups from the IMR powder, but have found it to be temperature sensitive. This time of year, it just does not group as well. H4350 seems to cure that issue and also gives me the consistent accuracy I want.
Lennyjoe
Member
I’ll keep that in mind as I’m using this rifle for hunting as well. IMR 4350 works great in my 30-06 and daughters .243, both used for deer hunting (and -06 for elk). I really haven’t noticed much difference in lower temps, especially in -06. If I can feed all 3 with the same powder thats definitely beneficial.
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Charlie98
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That was one of the reasons I picked the H version over the IMR version... even though I'm an IMR powder kind of guy.
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