Winchester M70 .338 Mag, Max Effective Range

[mmpoeth]

I was wondering if any of you have an insight on the max effective range of my Winchester M70 .338 Magnum rifle. I’m really new to long range shooting and know that some popular cartridges for long range are .308 win, .300 win mag., .338 Lapua and .50 BMG. However, I am trying to do a few things to use the one rifle that I have to establish long-range experience (i.e. getting good optics, 15 moa base, proper ammunition, etc.). And, I see that the .338 lapua gets very good ratings and I just wonder if there was a tremendous amount of differences between my .338 win. Mag. Rifle/cartridge for a long range shooting setup and the .308 win, .300 win mag, and the .338 lapua? With the right setup on my rig what do you think I can achieve in terms of maximum effective range (ignoring the factor of “beginner†human error)? I know I can probably never reach a comparable accuracy to the first-class long range and most costly rifle on the market, but I’ve heard a few good things about the new Winchester Model 70’s and thought I would get your take on my model with the .338 Win Mag for long range shooting. Your insight is appreciated.

- matt
Virginia

 

[The Grand Inquisitor]

From one beginner to another it is good to see someone else interested in starting to shoot .338 Lapua. .50 BMG is very popular round these days (for a very good reason) but for many of us it is just impractical and impossible to shoot) and I think .338 Lapua is the finest long distance cartridge outside of a ten grand .50BMG setup.

As for a .338 Lapua rifle and optics gear set-up, I don't know too much about optics yet so I'll restrict my comments to rifles, and if your situation is similar to mine, you have have two options: buy an Armalite AR-30, or buy a (Sako, Tikka...ect ect) and sell everything you have every owned and loved to afford it. The Ar-30 is about $1400 and everything is $7000. The good side to this is that the Armilite is a pretty good gun and straight shoot which should provide good group out to about 1500-1700 yards.

I'mm pretty biased in favor of .338 Lapua, so take this with a grain of salt - forget all of those other calibers, go get a .338 Lapua and some good reloading equipment and making the people next to you at the range deaf.

 

[dakotasin]

the 338 win mag is capable of shooting accurately quite a ways.

however, to shoot long range, especially a pencil barrel, is not gonna happen w/ a factory sporter gun.

in order to consistently, and purposefully hit targets at 1000 yards and beyond takes a lot of shooting. you need to generate a lot of real data - not the stuff burped up computer programs. so, just by the amount of shooting that has to be done, it will take years for you to get that good w/ a sporter-weight 338; you just can't send enough bullets down range... not just send them down there, but to really mean to hit your target and know.

in order to shoot long, you need to handload. you also need a good scope. you'll also need a rock solid mounting system. lots of practice. you also need to know how to do most of your own minor 'smith work.

it is easiest for a beginner to get into long range shooting w/ a very heavy rifle chambered to something w/ enough oomph to get out there. something like a 700 vls in 308...

 

[Gordon]

But 600 yards is a LOOOONG way off! And with a 4-12 or a 3-10 variable , with a ranging reticule you could actually take game - or an enemy at that range reliably. Most .338 Lapuas weigh 14+ pounds- is that practical? A 9 pound .338 Winchester is realistic for hunting or lugging distances(if you are young and strong!) . I used to shoot 250 grain Sierra's out of my .338 Win at about 2700fps with moa (1" at 100yards approx) , which would be 6" at 600 yards. The killzone , as Lewis Awerbuck explained to me is 9"- so that would be reliable , if you could hold it! At any range over 300yards wind doping becomes about the the biggest factor, something you don't read in the gun rags or from internet commandos. The .338 with 250 or heavier bullets bucks the wind about as well as anything uder a .50BMG, and that TOO , is affected by wind!
At 600yards that 2700fps 250 grainer is down to about 1700fps, which will still expand pretty well and definetly clean your,(or an Elk's clock) . The drop on a 200 yard zero is almost 4' but the windage in a 20mph moderate breeze is MORE! Of course this is a little better than a .308 Win with ALOT more energy delivered, about as much energy as a practical weight rifle can deliver IMHO.
I use a .375H&H , with 300grain lodrag bullets it does ALMOST as well as the .338 up to the 600yard outside edge I think is realistic for any non specialty (bench or 'bull' "sniper" rifle) practical rifle. The .300 mags with 220-250grain match bullets are at or above the .338 at that range, but the .338 is the better hunting choice IMHO. I shot a .300Weatherby in Montana, Idaho, Alaska and Africa with up to 220 grain bullets and never had a shot over 450 yards. I switched to a .338 in the mid 70's to 90 when I switched to .375H&H. But I am not shooting over typewriters, I shoot to kill game with one shot ! I have shoot at 1000 & 1500yards and consider it a stunt, it is not practical with anything you want to carry more than to your car in the parking lot! !

 

[Zak Smith]

The following is in the context of target or practical competition--

The maximum effective range for a rifle cartridge can be generally defined as the range to which the bullet is travelling at solidly super-sonic velocity. At the trans-sonic boundary, the bullet becomes unstable and accuracy suffers.

The operative parameters are: bullet ballistic coefficient (BC) and muzzle velocity.

Rifle shooting really begins past about 500 yards, at which point the human ability to accurately estimate wind drift and to have accurate ballistic data become very important. Long range shooting requires "homework."

There are several things that can be studied to make a determination: supersonic bullet distance, wind drift, trajectory drop, and logistics/cost.

Here is a table comparing a bunch of high-BC loads for various long range calibers:

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     200     400     600     800    1000    1200    1400    1600    1800 | YARDS
338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2850 >  2.5528  2.3413  2.1403  1.9482  1.7653  1.5935  1.4326  1.2869  1.1592  1.0542 | mach ratio
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >  2.6423  2.3972  2.1663  1.9482  1.7431  1.5523  1.3784  1.2242  1.0950  0.9961 | mach ratio
338WM 250SCNR     0.675 2750 >  2.4632  2.2285  2.0069  1.7982  1.6032  1.4244  1.2644  1.1277  1.0201  0.9421 | mach ratio
7RM 168gr VLD     0.648 2950 >  2.6423  2.3873  2.1476  1.9218  1.7102  1.5145  1.3378  1.1836  1.0585  0.9665 | mach ratio
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2970 >  2.6602  2.3509  2.0639  1.7962  1.5485  1.3270  1.1394  1.0008  0.9093  0.8453 | mach ratio
300WM 155 Scenar  0.508 3300 >  2.9558  2.6071  2.2873  1.9913  1.7181  1.4708  1.2555  1.0820  0.9612  0.8816 | mach ratio
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2900 >  2.5975  2.3423  2.1023  1.8765  1.6655  1.4715  1.2976  1.1482  1.0303  0.9456 | mach ratio
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2830 >  2.5348  2.2206  1.9295  1.6615  1.4207  1.2134  1.0509  0.9410  0.8674  0.8124 | mach ratio
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2700 >  2.4184  2.1057  1.8167  1.5521  1.3152  1.1201  0.9811  0.8918  0.8287  0.7788 | mach ratio
260 140gr VLD     0.620 2925 >  2.6199  2.3552  2.1070  1.8738  1.6565  1.4574  1.2800  1.1295  1.0133  0.9314 | mach ratio
260 123gr Scenar  0.540 3000 >  2.6871  2.3797  2.0942  1.8288  1.5846  1.3661  1.1791  1.0340  0.9351  0.8670 | mach ratio
300RUM 168SMK     0.46* 3600 >  3.2245  2.8155  2.4470  2.1030  1.7793  1.4787  1.2150  1.0191  0.9007  0.8242 | mach ratio
300RUM 210VLD     0.640 3100 >  2.7767  2.5098  2.2599  2.0247  1.8038  1.5982  1.4106  1.2443  1.1048  0.9985 | mach ratio

338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2850 >    0.00    1.64    6.84   16.10   30.05   49.40   74.97  107.63  148.14  196.86 | wind (inches)
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >    0.00    1.79    7.50   17.74   33.28   54.99   83.89  120.98  167.05  222.12 | wind (inches)
338WM 250SCNR     0.675 2750 >    0.00    1.97    8.30   19.69   37.00   61.22   93.36  134.30  184.35  242.79 | wind (inches)
7RM 168gr VLD     0.648 2950 >    0.00    1.87    7.84   18.60   34.98   57.97   88.66  128.13  177.06  235.12 | wind (inches)
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2970 >    0.00    2.27    9.66   23.22   44.39   74.85  116.37  169.75  233.76  306.52 | wind (inches)
300WM 155 Scenar  0.508 3300 >    0.00    2.08    8.82   21.14   40.28   67.80  105.49  154.87  216.04  287.21 | wind (inches)
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2900 >    0.00    1.94    8.15   19.35   36.45   60.47   92.56  133.76  184.57  244.34 | wind (inches)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2830 >    0.00    2.56   10.94   26.46   50.74   85.56  132.29  190.50  258.28  334.13 | wind (inches)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2700 >    0.00    2.81   12.06   29.27   56.42   95.43  146.95  209.37  280.71  359.94 | wind (inches)
260 140gr VLD     0.620 2925 >    0.00    1.98    8.34   19.84   37.42   62.22   95.42  138.13  190.73  252.36 | wind (inches)
260 123gr Scenar  0.540 3000 >    0.00    2.21    9.38   22.51   42.89   72.01  111.46  162.21  223.59  293.85 | wind (inches)
300RUM 168SMK     0.46* 3600 >    0.00    2.07    8.78   21.12   40.64   69.65  110.97  167.08  237.01  317.90 | wind (inches)
300RUM 210VLD     0.640 3100 >    0.00    1.77    7.42   17.58   33.00   54.66   83.62  121.02  167.79  224.10 | wind (inches)

338LM 300SMK      0.77* 2850 >   -0.00    1.27    5.67   11.03   17.24   24.40   32.68   42.33   53.61   66.80 | drop (moa)
338LM 250SCNR     0.675 2950 >   -0.00    1.15    5.33   10.52   16.65   23.85   32.36   42.47   54.52   68.84 | drop (moa)
338WM 250SCNR     0.675 2750 >   -0.00    1.47    6.38   12.45   19.63   28.11   38.16   50.13   64.36   81.14 | drop (moa)
7RM 168gr VLD     0.648 2950 >   -0.00    1.16    5.38   10.65   16.92   24.35   33.19   43.79   56.51   71.71 | drop (moa)
300WM 190gr SMK   0.53* 2970 >   -0.00    1.18    5.55   11.21   18.21   26.89   37.77   51.43   68.33   88.66 | drop (moa)
300WM 155 Scenar  0.508 3300 >   -0.00    0.78    4.24    8.82   14.50   21.55   30.40   41.58   55.68   73.05 | drop (moa)
300WM 210gr VLD   0.640 2900 >   -0.00    1.24    5.64   11.15   17.71   25.51   34.84   46.05   59.53   75.61 | drop (moa)
308 155 Scenar    0.508 2830 >   -0.00    1.41    6.38   12.85   20.96   31.15   44.02   60.11   79.72  102.88 | drop (moa)
308 175 SMK       0.51* 2700 >   -0.00    1.66    7.25   14.54   23.78   35.54   50.49   69.07   91.41  117.47 | drop (moa)
260 140gr VLD     0.620 2925 >   -0.00    1.20    5.55   11.03   17.58   25.43   34.86   46.28   60.08   76.60 | drop (moa)
260 123gr Scenar  0.540 3000 >   -0.00    1.13    5.39   10.89   17.65   25.99   36.35   49.26   65.17   84.34 | drop (moa)
300RUM 168SMK     0.46* 3600 >   -0.00    0.51    3.42    7.39   12.41   18.84   27.25   38.47   53.29   72.13 | drop (moa)
300RUM 210VLD     0.640 3100 >   -0.00    0.96    4.73    9.48   15.13   21.81   29.76   39.29   50.77   64.56 | drop (moa)

Focussing on wind drift numbers, you can see that 338WM is certainly no slouch, but it can be beat by smaller calibers that can shoot high BC bullets faster than 338WM's sedate 2700-2750fps for a 250.

-z

 

[mmpoeth]

All of the information provided to me (above) is some of the best information I've come across for my application. I sincerely appreciate your invaluable insight.

I guess I am looking for a round/cartridge for my .338wm that is universal for large game and small game, target shooting, long range accuracy...able to act with the precision of a needle and still able to deliver a vital blow to any animal without immorally wounding it at the longest possible range. I know that there are a selection of cartridges for this caliber for a range of differing and specific applications, however in order for me to start developing precision at long ranges I need to find a specific cartridge and practice with it (alot) in order to be able to reach the max potential ability of my rifle and cartridge if need be with great confidence.
So, with a pronghorn yes, moose yes, bear yes, groundhog yes, man-sized paper target yes. I know many may think that finding such a round for what I have described above is unreasonable, even though they may be right, I'd like to try to narrow it down to the closest possible choice.

There are a number of different grain bullets on the market today other than the traditional 250grn. for the .338wm that seem to demonstrate comparable ballistics to the .308, and .300wm and some of the others.

Thanks for providing the Excellent information!

-matt

 

[Zak Smith]

Matt,

The ethics of long-range hunting are questioned by many, and heck, people can't even decide what long-range is for hunting.

If you want both excellent hunting terminal ballistics and pinpoint accuracy, you have two goals which are often at odds. Nobody uses hunting bullets for serious long range target shooting, but there are some hunting bullets which are decently accurate. Your best bet for bullet selection is to do a survey of bullets appropriate for the game you'll be shooting, then go and test all of them in your rifle (ie, in your handloads) to see which is accurate enough.

The maximum effective hunting range for your 338WM will be determined firstly by your shooting ability including range estimation, wind estimation, ballistic data you develop, and ability to shoot from field positions (as opposed to a bench-rest); and secondly by the inherent accuracy of your rifle and loads.

Just for discussion, if you decide that you "won't" take a shot on game unless you are 95% sure you can make it cleanly, then as you get familiar with your rifle and practice in earnest, you'll get a sense of how that range increases from maybe 200 yards in the begining to maybe 400-500 yards later on. It's all about you...

-z

 

[30Cal]

As Zak points out, you're ability to estimate distance and wind will be the limiting factor.

Ty

 

[dakotasin]

don't estimate distance. get a good laser, and get real data out of your gun. don't think that a gun that shoots 1" at 100 can shoot 2" at 200 and so on. it varies wildly. some guns do better at 200 than 100, some go from 1" at 100 to 4" at 200. lots of variables.

as for your specific cartridge musings, i submit a hot 7mm is as far as you need to look. 7 rem mag, 7 stw, 7-300, or 7 rum. imo the best would be the 7 rem mag or the 7 stw. high bc and sd bullets available, plenty of velocity to reach out there, and barrel life is relatively long. 2nd choice would be a hot 300 (7mm's generally have better bc's), either the 300 win mag or 30-378. 3rd choice would be a 6.5 of some sort - 6.5 wsm, 6.5-284, maybe even the 260. generally, the 6.5's have better bc's but lack the weight (and subsequently energy) of the 7's...

 

[ALASKACAJUN]

I have a Browning A-Bolt in .338 Win Mag and have had very good success with Federal's Premium Nosler Partition's in 210 gr. I have made 1 shot kills on caribou, moose and bear with them, from 40 yards on the bear, 100 yards on the moose, and 300 yards on the Bou. In my experience, the .338 Win Mag is a 300-400 yard gun... I also own a .300 Wby mag and take it with me more often than not. It is IMO a better caliber, but what do you perfer Chevy or Ford?

- Clint