Winchester Model 12 or Remington 870

[Grunt]

In the thread about the current price of a Mossberg 590, I had to take a light-hearted poke at Howaido when he mentioned that the Remington 870 was the best pump shotgun of all time and reply that the OP in that thread said nothing about having a Winchester Model 12. But that did get me to thinking though, which do you think is the better shotgun of all time, the 870 or Model 12?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Pump shotguns are shooting machines- they aren't European made best bespoke double barrels that cost tens of thousands each. Pump shotguns are shotguns for the common man- not just the common man, the common American at that. The working man, who has the luxury of time and money to pursue shooting sports as a hobby as part of the fruits of his labor.

Winchester produced the Model 12 from 1912 until discontinued in 1963, with a total of almost two million produced. No doubt that they are classics- products of the era when America was coming into its own as an industrial power, and reaching its peak of productive capacity.

But Winchester stopped making Model 12s because they cost too much to manufacture. They were being priced out of reach of their market- the working man who wanted a sporting shotgun, not a frufru double gun. Something had to give. And it did. The Model 12 ceased production, and the Model 1200 came along.

If you want to compare apples to apples, it's more fair to compare the Model 12 to Remington's Model 31 than to the 870. The 870 was a product of the same forces which drove the Model 12 out of production- increased costs of manufacture for the older designs. The difference was that the Remington 870 came along a decade earlier than the Winchester 1200, and was and still is a better design overall (IMHO, of course) than the 1200.

The 870 is still filling the niche of the working man's shotgun better than anything else on the market, IMHO. The Model 12, as great as it was, simply cost too much to produce. So did Remington's Model 31, the 'ball bearing corn shucker' as it was known- it wound up with about a tenth as many produced as the Model 12, less than 200,000 overall when production ceased in 1949.

Ten million 870s sold in 59 years, versus not quite two million Model 12s sold in 51 years- the numbers alone pretty well tell the tale, I think.

lpl

 

[ArmedBear]

The 870 is still filling the niche of the working man's shotgun better than anything else on the market, IMHO.

But Lee, you've got to admit, the Model 12 is filling the niche of the grumpy retired range rat's pump gun better than anything else in history.

 

[Dave McCracken]

"Grumpy retired range rat"....

I know that guy.....

 

[armedandsafe]

grumpy retired range rat's pump gun

I resemble that remark.

Pops

 

[Clipper]

...And the reason the M-12 was too costly to produce, in my opinion, is because you can't make that great a gun for junk-gun prices. Yeah, Remington has sold a lot of 870s, but if they were made as well as a M-12, they'd have been just as costly. This is why the cheapened-up 1200 was never a barn burner, either. Go out and handle a well-cared-for M-12, and then try an 870...There's no comparison, at least for me. I wouldn't use an 870 for more than a tent peg. Sorry.

 

[MMCSRET]

I have owned and used M1912's, M12's, 870's, and Mossberg 500's, I still have all of my Winchesters and all my Mossbergs and none of the Remingtons. I had never thought about it in this context until I read this thread; hmmmmm, wonder what that means?

 

[Fred Fuller]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
grumpy retired range rat

Can't believe no one said anything about pump gun snobs yet, either .

lpl

 

[Hoppy590]

im the oposite of "retired" ( entry level, college educated)

the Model 12 is the finest pump gun mass produced. the 870's a fine gun and will serve you well. but a good Model 12 is head and shoulders above.

i use a 20 gauge Model 12, and a Mossy 590. have lots of time on a 12 gauge model 12

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I voted 870. It's probably just me, but I like the feel of the 870 Wingmaster, I like cleaning it more and I like that the 870 has two arms on the slide instead of just one.

 

[ArmedBear]

pump gun snobs

Well, it did occur to me that this long-standing debate is like fighting over whether Hamm's or Pabst is the better beer...

The reason the Model 12 is not made any more is because it's a PUMP GUN!

It was popular for American Trap, but serious American Trap shooters quit using pump guns in any appreciable number many years back.

Bird hunters with discriminating tastes still love a particular pump gun, and it's neither one of those.

For everyone else, a pump gun is cheap, reliable and versatile. Throw out any of those, and there's no reason to buy the thing.

WRT an 870 being junk, well, objectively it is junk: stampings and piano wire. The thing is, it's one cleverly-designed pile of junk, that's good for hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Anyone can make a good gun for a lot of money. Remington figured out how to do it for not a lot of money. Mossberg followed suit. And the Model 12 found few buyers after that. Sad, maybe, but true.

 

[PJR]

I've owned both a Model 12 and assorted 870s.

For elan and style nothing beats the Model 12.

For reliability and durability the 870 stands in first place.

Both are great guns. But if my hide is on the line I want the 870.

 

[whatnickname]

Which is better?

I would hate to bet my life on the difference! The model 12 hands down is the best made slide action shotgun of all time. All you have to do is take one apart to see the high degree of workmanship and hand fitting by true craftsmen to understand why they represent the holy grail of slide or pump action shotguns. Its a true pleasure to work on one of these shotguns. Unfortunately the separate machining steps and hand fitting required to build a model 12 was also the shotgun's downfall. Like so many of the other guns of this time period they simply became too expensive to manufacture; which is to say that the market would not support the increasing retail cost of this shotgun so it went away. Remington on the other hand recognized this when the came out with the 870. Simply stated the design of this shotgun was based on efficiency of manufacturing. There's a reason that the 870 has been in production longer than any other slide action shotgun we have. It can be mass produced with considerably less hand fitting so we still have it with us. The 870 was the first nice shotgun I ever purchased. I bought mine when I was in my early 20s and still have it nearly 40 years later. I've taken good care of the shotgun and have used it quite a bit too. Its never let me down and in a way reminds me of an old pair of shoes...it just feels good. I shoot well with it and know I can always count on it to do its job. I keep another 870 loaded next to my bed...used police riot gun. I know its going to work the first time, every time. I'll always own an 870!

 

[Virginian]

The Model 12 is the holy grail to guys that love them. That does not include a lot of us 870 lovers, because the two guns, to me, feel very differently. The Model 12 had a lot of handwork involved in it's manufacture. I do not see where that is such a big plus, and even if it was, why don't you shoot SxSs if that's your criteria. To me, an 870 works better, and just as long, for less money.
I have a friend with a small Model 12 collection. I bet he had had to have at least four of them "fixed" during the same time period I have never had my 870 "fixed".
I have a '66 GTO with 3 two barrel carburetors. I love it. But I would be foolish to insist that the 3 deuces are better than tuned port fuel injection.

 

[Hollywood Marine]

I love my model 12's. That being said, 870's, model 37's, mossy 500's and 590's do the same job for less. I like the 12 better, so thats what I shoot, but any good pumpgun is a very viable choice for trap, skeet, upland birds or waterfoul. Shoot what you like best to shoot. You will not wear any good pumpgun out in two or three lifetimes, given even a vestige of proper care.

 

[whatnickname]

Better? Thats not what I said.

Both guns are excellent. I have a fondness for the 870 that will always be there. If it comes down to having to defend life and limb those that intend to do me harm will find themselves on the business end of an 870 loaded with 000 buckshot. I'm not about to trust a piece of junk when I have skin in the game! That said the workmanship and handwork found in the model 12 have my unqualified respect and appreciation. I do own some higher end doubles but then this thread wasn't about that was it? As for reliability who knows about your friend's collection? I doubt he bought the guns new so there's no way of telling about the usage and care they may have had prior to his owning them. Because of my profession, I've had the privilege of getting to know a good many world class skeet shooters. A number of these folks have been inducted into the skeet shooting hall of fame. More than one of these competitors have had extensive experience with model 12s amounting collectively to tens of thousands of rounds fired without a single hitch. I don't believe there is a shotgun that has been made that cannot be worn to the point that something breaks; including the 870 and the model 12. The more you cowboy and rough handle either one the more likely you will be to see something break. Both are well made and both will last a lifetime if cared for properly, If you prefer your 870 that's great. I like mine too!

 

[shotgunjoel]

Model 12 is classic. Period.

 

[Virginian]

The original question was about better. I agree with anyone that thinks that the best gun for each person is the one they shoot best. No normal person will wear out a 12 or an 870.
My buddy with the collection of 12s did buy some of them new way back when, and to be perfectly honest I think he is jinxed. He babies all his guns, and he had a double made for him in England. The hinge pin cracked. The maker had a fit and fixed it of course. They swore they had never experienced such before.

 

[MrC]

That is a question that has been going around for along time.

The 870 is the gun that put the model 12 out of business. But that’s only because of the price. The model 12 was of a quality that could not even be made for the retail price of a 870.

The machined receiver was so strong that the ammunition manufacturers of the time used the model 12 to proof test loads for pressure testing. The model 12 was all hand fitted and hand machined from solid steel block. Only the later Y models had forged receivers in a attempt to keep production costs down to compete with the cheaper made guns.

Go to some of the gun sales sites and you will see model 12's for $400.00 to $20,000.00. You won't find even the most elaborately engraved 870's for more than about $800.00. The model 12 has turned into a real collectable classic because of its quality and workmanship.

 

[czarjl]

Remington 870, because it was my first shotgun and I have yet to find anything I can’t do with it.

 

[ArmedBear]

The model 12 has turned into a real collectable classic because of its quality and workmanship.

True. Real inner beauty.

And for the average shooter, this means money down the toilet if he buys a Model 12, thinking it will do anything a Wingmaster won't. There are cheap 50 cent pens that break, $50 pens that don't, and pens for $5,000. Which one is "better"?

So it depends on what the original question really means...

 

[stalkingbear]

There's NO question the Winchester model 12 is the finest, best made, slickest operating pump shotgun in the history of firearms. There's a LOT more Remington model 870 and Mossberg model 500 shotguns on the planet. That don't make them better however. It's a class thing and pride in shooting something hand fitted. It won't shoot any harder or anything.

 

[ArmedBear]

A class thing?

That's why I wrote: "Well, it did occur to me that this long-standing debate is like fighting over whether Hamm's or Pabst is the better beer..."

 

[El Hombre]

Winchester Hands down. Better quality. Better durability.
The 870 is a fine economy gun, but it is no Model 12.

Actually the Browning BPS is a better gun than the 870.

Bottom ejection, ambi safety, solid reciever.

Just wish the blueing was better on them.

 

[ArmedBear]

...and that they weighed less than a car.