freakshow10mm
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That case was Warren vs DC, 1983.
Wisconsin co-ed dials 911; dies anyway
- Thread starter Intrepid Dad
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Dksimon
Member
That is such a shame. My prayers go out to the family.
Poper
Member
A gross understatement.
JMHO
Poper
Guy B. Meredith
Member
I am collecting articles and videos of instances where 911 failed. This is another one in the collection.
This brings up an interesting point. An anonymous call or 911 hangup.
Do the police enter? Some are gonna holler no,they have no right to enter. Others are gonna complain if they dont enter and someone dies.
So what do you think the appropriate action should be in a case where a 911 call is received and they know the location but no one answers the door?
Do the police enter? Some are gonna holler no,they have no right to enter. Others are gonna complain if they dont enter and someone dies.
So what do you think the appropriate action should be in a case where a 911 call is received and they know the location but no one answers the door?
Well, the truth is, a better response wouldn't have saved her either. Truth is, had the operator not hung up, but instead stayed on the line, and immediately dispatched the police, they STILL would have arrived too late to do anything but collect evidience
plexreticle
Member
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I'm having a hard time following your reply but why do i think this? Public officials seem to have a different standard of accountability than the general public.
- Someone calls 911 for help, dispatcher hangs up doesn't send help. Policy change needed?
-SWAT team kicks in wrong door and shoots someone. Oops sorry.
- High speed police chase ends in pile up. Cops is suspended for a couple of weeks.
Lets say I'm driving my work truck and I'm talking on the phone or eating donughts or whatever. I run a red light and clobber someone. If they died I would be in jail.
Gross negligence is OK if your salary is paid with taxes it seems.
RustyShackelford
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911 hang up- abuse charge/payment; LE lawsuits/accountable
To address Reyn; post:
From the past incidents I've seen, most 911 dispatchers/call centers will send an LEO to the location if possible and then check to see if it's just a mistake or if it's more serious. I had a 911 hang-up call by accident on a remote post where I was working and a LEO came by to check it out.
To me excessive 911 calls(like bogus alarm/fire safety call outs) should result in a formal criminal charge and/or fees for the waste of public safety officers. I'd say more than 3 seperate false alarms/911 hang ups in a 12mo period should result in this action by local law enforcement or the code enforcement section. In a recent security job I worked, tenants of an upscale condo kept calling 911/police from a phone in the lounge. The local PD was not happy!
As for the LE agencies/sworn LEOs, I would say that many US law enforcement agencies deal with things the wrong way. Many PDs and public safety officals would rather face civil lawsuits or bad PR than change SOPs or take legal-admin actions against public safety officers/supervisors who do things wrong or are inept. Some LE agencies do not want to face the facts that a sworn officer could have said or done something that caused major problems. They'd rather settle for millions(of tax payer's money,
).
Rusty
To address Reyn; post:
From the past incidents I've seen, most 911 dispatchers/call centers will send an LEO to the location if possible and then check to see if it's just a mistake or if it's more serious. I had a 911 hang-up call by accident on a remote post where I was working and a LEO came by to check it out.
To me excessive 911 calls(like bogus alarm/fire safety call outs) should result in a formal criminal charge and/or fees for the waste of public safety officers. I'd say more than 3 seperate false alarms/911 hang ups in a 12mo period should result in this action by local law enforcement or the code enforcement section. In a recent security job I worked, tenants of an upscale condo kept calling 911/police from a phone in the lounge. The local PD was not happy!
As for the LE agencies/sworn LEOs, I would say that many US law enforcement agencies deal with things the wrong way. Many PDs and public safety officals would rather face civil lawsuits or bad PR than change SOPs or take legal-admin actions against public safety officers/supervisors who do things wrong or are inept. Some LE agencies do not want to face the facts that a sworn officer could have said or done something that caused major problems. They'd rather settle for millions(of tax payer's money,
).Rusty
Travis McGee
Member
Dial 911 and die.
Hey, I think Oleg Volk can make a really nice poster with these words. Example, show in the first picture of a terrified little boy at home, clutching a cell phone, with the towering silhouette of an armed intruder looming over him. Beneath are the words "Dial 911 And Die"
In the next picture, the same little boy, but this time, with an extremely confident defiance on his face, a cell phone on the dresser, and him holding a loaded Glock or 1911A1 directly at the intruder's heart, fiber optic sights all lined up, and ready to fire. Beneath are the words "Words Count When Backed Up With Actions".
I think it would turn out to be very good.
The Tourist
member
Harley Quinn said:
It was a "staged" photograph.
I had not used the case in +/-eight years, but I wanted to show it. I went to my gunroom, found it, picked up my Colt, dropped the magazine, and set up the case.
FYI, I have carried it cocked and locked due to enhanced work on the safety lever done by Tussey. The trigger is set at +6 pounds and you have to be a weight lifter to push the safety lever to "fire."
I had it set that way to compensate for adrenaline if I needed the pistol. I do plink with it, but its primary job is security.
JohnMc
Member
Rachen
I think Mr. Volk has covered this subject fairly well:
http://www.a-human-right.com/dependonothers.html
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_fightback.jpg
I think Mr. Volk has covered this subject fairly well:
http://www.a-human-right.com/dependonothers.html
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_fightback.jpg
Jeff22
Member
tragedy
"The Police, here to protect you, when they feel like it."
That's pretty irresponsible.
The dispatchers in this case are civilian non-sworn employees who dispatch police/fire/ems for the City of Madison, the Dane county Sheriff's Department, and many smaller municipalities.
I've been dispatched by them since 1981. In general, they do a damn fine job.
As somebody pointed out, if the call comes in on a cell phone, where is the Comm Center supposed to send the police to? They don't have a way to locate, in real time, where the cell phone call is being made from. (Although they can usually tell which tower the cell call came into. Not always)
That's why I still have a conventional land-line phone at home, in addition to the cell phone I carry around with me.
Now, there may be some other issues with the way the call was handled. I suspect more details will come out in the coming days.
"The Police, here to protect you, when they feel like it."
That's pretty irresponsible.
The dispatchers in this case are civilian non-sworn employees who dispatch police/fire/ems for the City of Madison, the Dane county Sheriff's Department, and many smaller municipalities.
I've been dispatched by them since 1981. In general, they do a damn fine job.
As somebody pointed out, if the call comes in on a cell phone, where is the Comm Center supposed to send the police to? They don't have a way to locate, in real time, where the cell phone call is being made from. (Although they can usually tell which tower the cell call came into. Not always)
That's why I still have a conventional land-line phone at home, in addition to the cell phone I carry around with me.
Now, there may be some other issues with the way the call was handled. I suspect more details will come out in the coming days.
cracked butt
Member
Not much .gov can do for you if they don't have a fix on your location and even then, they don't have the magical ability to appear on the scene instantaneously. Sometimes you just have to deal with the wolves yourself.
There's no way that I would send my daughter off to somewhere else to live without a 'plan B.' I distinctively rememebr when we as a family helped my younger sister move to her first apartment off campus. My parents brought along a care package which included cookies, cooking utensils, linens, and a .410 shotgun with a box of shells.
There's no way that I would send my daughter off to somewhere else to live without a 'plan B.' I distinctively rememebr when we as a family helped my younger sister move to her first apartment off campus. My parents brought along a care package which included cookies, cooking utensils, linens, and a .410 shotgun with a box of shells.
I haven't been following the "Minute-to-minute" on this case, but yesterday they said on Foxnews that they have refused to release the 911 call tape.
As it is, until we know what was on that tape, I will think the worst of the LE response. The fact that they choose not to release it casts a shadow on them.
-- John
As it is, until we know what was on that tape, I will think the worst of the LE response. The fact that they choose not to release it casts a shadow on them.
-- John
Do you have this one from Columbus, Ohio?
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/04/24/wrong.html?sid=101
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
There are some funny things about 911 and the attitudes of people about 911. For those of you who don't remember, 911 if hugely better than the old system of dialing the operator and being asked to be connected with the police.
Just because somebody tells you to do something doesn't absolve you from all responsibility for yourself. If there are those who call 911 and then do nothing, they would have done nothing without 911 as well. Let's face it. There are some folks who will never be self reliant. There will be folks we can't ever save.
Speaking of which, how many people here who are comlaining about 911 and the lack of response are willing to pay the extra money for a better system and to have cops on every corner, 24/7?
I don't care who tells you that you should rely on 911, but everyone should try thinking for themselves for a change. We call folks "sheeple" because they default to what the police tell them to do just like so many of us will default to whatever some gunwriter or gun instructor tells us to do. We are just as guilty of the same sin of blindly following a supposed leader as those we call "sheeple." We just think we are smarter because we blindly follow with guns.
If you don't like 911, then don't use it. That will free up the limited system resources for others. You can call the non-emergency number to report a crime after you have vanquished the bad guy.
Just because somebody tells you to do something doesn't absolve you from all responsibility for yourself. If there are those who call 911 and then do nothing, they would have done nothing without 911 as well. Let's face it. There are some folks who will never be self reliant. There will be folks we can't ever save.
Speaking of which, how many people here who are comlaining about 911 and the lack of response are willing to pay the extra money for a better system and to have cops on every corner, 24/7?
I don't care who tells you that you should rely on 911, but everyone should try thinking for themselves for a change. We call folks "sheeple" because they default to what the police tell them to do just like so many of us will default to whatever some gunwriter or gun instructor tells us to do. We are just as guilty of the same sin of blindly following a supposed leader as those we call "sheeple." We just think we are smarter because we blindly follow with guns.
If you don't like 911, then don't use it. That will free up the limited system resources for others. You can call the non-emergency number to report a crime after you have vanquished the bad guy.
DNS wrote:
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that people should not be self-reliant. I DO think people here disagree with the idea that all problem can be-- and should be-- handled by a 911 call.
The reactions you are seeing here are from those exasperated persons who are tired of the "Call 911 in the event of an emergency" with the assumption that it will fix everything statements we routinely get.
Clearly, that is NOT the case, and yet it is repeated as if it were the word of god by many.
I've spent quite a bit on upgrades. None of them rely on waiting for a cop to get here from 22 miles away. Instead, I focus on what is actually effective for me. Even the most uninformed among the rural communities understand that 911 can't save us.
But I fail to see how ANY money spent on upgrades would prevent an operator from hanging up and forgetting about you.
You seem to operate from the assumption that we don't.
While your point is valid for many people in the gun community, it fails to be even remotely relevent.
We could say the exact same about cars, entertainment systems, and that guy who talked me into planting Sawtooth Oak Trees in my yard.
Until you are an expert on something, you typically defer to the opinions of "the experts." Later, you learn that they are not necessarily experts themselves-- or have an agenda-- or are speaking about things that are not relevent to you.
By the time you figure that out, you don't NEED thier opinions.
In the case of the experts putting down any suggestion other than calling 911, you do not get the benefit of figuring out the fallacy of it later.
It is not a question of not liking it. It is a question of understanding that it is not rubbing on a lamp to get 3 wishes from a blue guy in a turbin. It is a question of QUESTIONING the conventional wisdom offered routinely.
And in the case of a 911 operator that hangs up and does not send any response to a plea for help, it is inexcusable, irresponsible, incompetation, unconcerned, and damned evil. Don't try to defend that with "if you don't like it, don't use it."
Until you tell me that I don't have to pay for it with my taxes, I'll use it as damned often as I need to.
Considering that we can't get a response here in under 30 minutes, that was my original plan. It's either that or be found in a pool of my own blood. The former sounds more workable for me.
-- John
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that people should not be self-reliant. I DO think people here disagree with the idea that all problem can be-- and should be-- handled by a 911 call.
The reactions you are seeing here are from those exasperated persons who are tired of the "Call 911 in the event of an emergency" with the assumption that it will fix everything statements we routinely get.
Clearly, that is NOT the case, and yet it is repeated as if it were the word of god by many.
I've spent quite a bit on upgrades. None of them rely on waiting for a cop to get here from 22 miles away. Instead, I focus on what is actually effective for me. Even the most uninformed among the rural communities understand that 911 can't save us.
But I fail to see how ANY money spent on upgrades would prevent an operator from hanging up and forgetting about you.
You seem to operate from the assumption that we don't.
While your point is valid for many people in the gun community, it fails to be even remotely relevent.
We could say the exact same about cars, entertainment systems, and that guy who talked me into planting Sawtooth Oak Trees in my yard.
Until you are an expert on something, you typically defer to the opinions of "the experts." Later, you learn that they are not necessarily experts themselves-- or have an agenda-- or are speaking about things that are not relevent to you.
By the time you figure that out, you don't NEED thier opinions.
In the case of the experts putting down any suggestion other than calling 911, you do not get the benefit of figuring out the fallacy of it later.
It is not a question of not liking it. It is a question of understanding that it is not rubbing on a lamp to get 3 wishes from a blue guy in a turbin. It is a question of QUESTIONING the conventional wisdom offered routinely.
And in the case of a 911 operator that hangs up and does not send any response to a plea for help, it is inexcusable, irresponsible, incompetation, unconcerned, and damned evil. Don't try to defend that with "if you don't like it, don't use it."
Until you tell me that I don't have to pay for it with my taxes, I'll use it as damned often as I need to.
Considering that we can't get a response here in under 30 minutes, that was my original plan. It's either that or be found in a pool of my own blood. The former sounds more workable for me.
-- John
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rocinante
Member
This is sad but seems to fit a normal pattern and that poor REAL girl is gone. Not even much point in reading the responses here because nothing new can be added. I read the comments on the same incident over on digg.com and the usual LAME anti comments pop up. Absurdies like you will never be fast enough to get to a gun for it to be effective. The poor girl had time to get to a telephone didn't she? Bet she would of felt more comfort holding even a derringer than her hot line to no help at all. Stories like this just in my mind reinforce the TRUISM 'when seconds count the police are minutes away'. I am so puzzled where this notion that self defense is not a personal responsibility got such a hold on so many minds.
papajohn
Member
I spent over a dozen years as a 911 Dispatcher, and the attitude of some of the posters here is just plain appalling. The call came from a cell phone.....which can't be traced. The dispatcher SHOULD have called back, no doubt......but had other emergency calls to take. Do we put all the other calls on hold until we call back the number where no one was answering? How would you feel if you called 911 and no one answered, because they were busy doing followups? Jesus, the bleating and whining around here is unbelieveable.
And if the dispatcher HAD called back, and got no answer, then what? What would you have her do? Anyone who has worked in a call center knows there are times when the phones are ringing off the hook, quite often with people calling in NON-emergency problems. What do you want to do about them, prison time? Cut off their phone priveleges? Public spankings?
As for not releasing the tape, I'm sure this is an on-going investigation, and as such, should NOT be released pending the outcome. Duh.
Did the dispatcher screw up? Probably. So did the victim. Several different ways.....not being prepared, not using a land line, not being armed, who knows what else. Maybe nothing would have helped, maybe she was dead before the call was even answered, we don't know. But an awful lot of folks are being awful quick to point fingers before they have all the facts, or even understand how the system is supposed to work. Maybe once all the halos are passed out for the perfect among us we can revisit this.......
PJ
And if the dispatcher HAD called back, and got no answer, then what? What would you have her do? Anyone who has worked in a call center knows there are times when the phones are ringing off the hook, quite often with people calling in NON-emergency problems. What do you want to do about them, prison time? Cut off their phone priveleges? Public spankings?
As for not releasing the tape, I'm sure this is an on-going investigation, and as such, should NOT be released pending the outcome. Duh.
Did the dispatcher screw up? Probably. So did the victim. Several different ways.....not being prepared, not using a land line, not being armed, who knows what else. Maybe nothing would have helped, maybe she was dead before the call was even answered, we don't know. But an awful lot of folks are being awful quick to point fingers before they have all the facts, or even understand how the system is supposed to work. Maybe once all the halos are passed out for the perfect among us we can revisit this.......
PJ
macadore
Member
+1
When my first daughter moved out, I gave her a double action 38 Special loaded with 125 grain +P hollow points. Last summer another daughter went on vacation with some friends. Before she left, I handed her a double action 44 Special loaded with Cor-Bons. In the middle of the night, someone started pounding on the door of the hotel room my daughter her friends were sharing and demanding to be let in. My daughter grabbed the previously concealed 44 and told one of the other women to call the front desk. It turned out to be a drunk trying to get into the wrong room, but it could have been otherwise. The other women were shocked, relived, and confused by my daughter being armed. Hopefully, they learned a valuable lesson.
Harley Quinn
Member
Legality is the whole issue. At some date and time it will be released I think.
Right now many of the thoughts and statements made at this forum is some of the reasons it is not open to public opinion.
The opinion poll at the newspaper is a good location also, to get the feeling of the general public.
Some real interesting thoughts for sure.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Truly a terrible story. Citizens would all do well to understand that the system cannot protect them 24/7 and that we are all responsible for our own safety.
That said, I don't think it's a lesson that's lost on the membership here, and since there's no direct gun content in the story, I'm going to close the thread.
That said, I don't think it's a lesson that's lost on the membership here, and since there's no direct gun content in the story, I'm going to close the thread.
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