Wisconsin: Police State, B'gosh

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Because unlike other people invovled cops and prosecutors can't just go to the media with information on as it may hinder the investigation.
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Explain to me how them explaining the basis for the PC for the warrant would 'hinder the investigation'

I heard Janet Reno and Clinton make that argument a million times btw ;)
 
Justin,

You just made my point for me. I am now a member of the population that will tell any and every LEO I ever meet to do something anatomically impossible before I even talk to them, no matter what the circumstances.

If I have information that can lead to the immediate arrest of a cop killer, well, too f'bad. I am calling my lawer before I say a thing to any police officer, let alone allow the officer on my property. That is a pretty sad state of afffairs if you ask me, but hey, CYA has become the game to play I guess. If a cop killer gets away, well, at least I won't be in jail for something unrelated that I didn't even know about. Oh well.
 
You just made my point for me. I am now a member of the population that will tell any and every LEO I ever meet to do something anatomically impossible before I even talk to them, no matter what the circumstances.
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Well, whoa there. HEHEHE ;) I certainly didn't intend to provke that response in you. I guess if you feel that way thou I would understand. This type of sentiment is increasingly on the rise, and I don't think the attitudes of a lot of the newer officers really helps to negate it.

I live in a rather rural area, and for the most part all of my interactions with law enforcement have been profressional and courteous. However, most of the guys around here still have the (correct) 'peace office' mentality. Not the 'your a civilian mentality'. There are a few new guys around here that I don't think are straight shooters, but I know WHO they are, since this is a small town. So when
it comes to dealing with them, I'm gonna CYA. If they treat me with respect, they'll get it back. If they don't, then they won't. Simple as that.

Now, that being said: KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. And use them, lest you lose them. If you run across the bad eggs, don't let them jerk you around
 
I am calling my lawer before I say a thing to any police officer, let alone allow the officer on my property.
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An excellent plan of action.

I've said it before, modern LEOs are NOT our friends. At best, they are, generally, uneasy allies. If you have to talk to them, tell them only what is absolutely necessary, otherwise, you may be inviting serious trouble.
 
So much back and forth on this...

I see it still as a fairly simple case of a breach of constitutional rights.

Essentially unless they see a suspect go into someone's home and then there is a question to what firearms are what, I could see a case based on just-cause much to what FedDC eluded too earlier. However from the sounds of it, this was not the case.

What would happen to one who shut the door and said, "No, you may not take my firearms. You are welcome to search my premises for the suspect, but unless you have just cause you cannot take them"? Some LEOs have simply forgot who pays their bills and hires them to protect and maintain the peace. It's a terrible case, it wrenches me to hear of any LE being shot - it might be a family member of mine. But this sounds like a power grab and intimidation beyond any normal scope.

So let's say next week they find a large bag of illicit drugs outside. Can they then go to everyone's house and run medical drug tests on everyone? Search and seize items in their homes? They should be ashamed. It's un-American.

This sounds easily a breach of infringment of the 2nd, is exactly a breach of the 4th, and possibly the 5th if prosecution occured. The LEO's were not being careful, and could even have jeapordized something for the DA - maybe not in this case, but certainly this behaviour and disregard will lead them to trouble.

...I wonder what really happened. It sounds too simple.
 
Because unlike other people invovled cops and prosecutors can't just go to the media with information on as it may hinder the investigation. If I commented on ongoing investigations to the media, without approval from the prosecutors and HQ for the agency, I would be out of a job.
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Isn't that crazy? An LEO will lose his/her job for going to the media with information because it negatively effects their brothers in blue yet they only get a suspension (if that) for numerous other crimes/misconduct because it only negatively effects us mere "civilians."
:scrutiny:
 
This could have ended up MUCH worse. If some cops came to my door, demanded to come in my house and steal my guns... I hate to say it, but there might be a confrontation. Now, if the cops wanted to check my house and they asked politely, I MIGHT escort them through the house to show that nobody was there - MAYBE. If, while inside, they said, "where are your guns, we need to take them," there would be a major @%#&storm.

Don't tell me I'm the only one here that would not respond kindly to officers taking my guns when I've done nothing wrong and the wanted criminal is not in my residence....

I'm NOT saying I'd start shooting cops, but I would probably be taken to jail for forcefully DEFENDING MY PROPERTY AND RIGHTS.

That said, I'd like to get the whole story before passing judgement on this particular case. So far it sounds like the cops acted completely inappropriately. After all info is released, it could turn out that their actions were justified. I can't think of anything that would justify stealing people's guns that are obviously not related to the crime, but just because I can't think of it doesn't mean it isn't possible :D
 
Jah here's the actual text of the update. FedDC old buddy, are ya out there? ;)

Oshkosh police say 'Sorry' for trampling citizens' rights in door-to-door gun confiscations.

Oshkosh, Wis. -- In what appears to be an admission of wrong-doing by the Oshkosh Police Department, Fox 11 WLUK (Green Bay) has reported that area resident Terry Wesner was offered an apology by the department.

Police evacuated citizens from their homes within a quarantined area near Smith Elementary School Saturday night (July 17, 2004) to conduct a broad gun sweep of the neighborhood following the shooting of Oshkosh police officer Nate Gallagher.

Residents reported returning home from area shelters -- where they were herded by police -- to find their guns gone.

Others watched in awe as police took their firearms after giving police consent to search. Some were told by police their firearms would be subjected to ballistics tests, and would be returned.

"However, the bullet that hit officer Gallagher was not found," said Corey Graff, executive director of Wisconsin Gun Owners Inc. "So how can police conduct ballistics tests if there's no bullet with which to match the results? It defies logic."

Graff said the biggest issue is what he calls the department's "Guilty-until-proven-innocent" posture towards citizens.

In what appears to be a blatant knee jerk abuse of police power, the department unleashed the dogs — literally — when the Special Weapons and Tactics Unit (SWAT) showed up with its K-9 Unit to begin house-to-house searches.

According to media reports, the suspect fled on foot into the neighborhood, and has not been apprehended.

Warrants for searches were issued for at least two homes, (perhaps more) but homeowners in the area reported having all their firearms taken by police.

Some witnesses said the whole neighborhood was evacuated by force and citizens were being told – not asked, but told – to hand over their guns. Some weren’t even asked.

"That’s what makes me so mad," said resident Terry Wesner in an Oshkosh Northwestern report (July 20, 2004). "They had no reason [to remove firearms] without a warrant. . .I didn’t know they removed anything until my buddy, who’s staying with me, noticed they were missing. I thought you had to have a warrant to take someone’s guns." [Emphasis Added]

In a subsequent report, another resident, who worked the late night weekend shift, reported he came home to find a scene that looked like his home had been burglarized — he said personal belongings were thrown about — and his gun safe was empty.

"They didn’t even leave a note, telling me what was going on," the man said on camera.

An elderly woman said she woke up to find police — who were reported to be dressed in black, quasi-military gear — conducting a search in her home in the early morning hours.

"Did the fact that this poor senior citizen happened to live in the immediate area of the crime warrant "Reasonable Suspicion" or "Probable Cause" that she could have committed this heinous act?" asked Graff.

"Is Grandma taking pot shots out her kitchen window? Is she hiding something in the cookie jar?" He said.

In the same Oshkosh Northwestern report (July 20, 2004) Oshkosh Police Captain Jay Puestohl was reported to have, "declined to say on what grounds officers had the right to remove the firearms…"

"If officers were acting honorably and respecting property owners' rights, why not say so? Why not be upfront? Why the secrecy?" Graff said.

One resident in the neighborhood may have found himself the subject of the investigation simply by refusing to consent to a search (entirely within his rights) according to the news report.

The Oshkosh Northwestern story quoted one neighbor — who suspected homeowners who exercised their right to refuse consent to the heavy-handed searches, were presumed guilty by police — as saying:

". . .[T]hey’ve been downright rude to us. . .You don’t treat so-called civilians this way." [Emphasis Added]

The news story goes on to say that Captain Puestohl ". . .declined to say whether officers pursued the warrant because the residents refused a consent search."

This hysteria-driven Oshkosh neighborhood gun grab could establish a nightmarish precedent for a wide-open abuse of police power to be unleashed upon Badger State gun owners said WGO.

The silence from other gun rights groups on this issue is deafening.

"The institutional gun lobby is just as scared as the poor people in that Oshkosh neighborhood," Graff said. "They might be thinking, 'If I speak out, will my guns be next?'"

Wesner, one of the brave gun owners to speak out against the rash of gun confiscations that occurred after the shooting, said police confiscated his guns after entering his home without a search warrant.

He reported in a Thursday, July 22 television interview with WLUK-FOX 11, "They [the police] are not going to come in my home again [without a warrant]."

That same report stated that the police "acknowledged a lack of proper procedure [in not obtaining a warrant]."

Wisconsin Gun Owners Inc. said the most effective response for gun owners is to join and contribute to the organization's bold, no-compromise educational crusade.
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Sorry? Sorry enough to eat a Felony rap under 18 USC 241? ;)
 
More info from the "Wisconsin Gun Owners"... How many members do they have again? Oh yeah, I think it is about 1. Every one of those "articles" was written by the SAME guy so, no, I am not suprised at the content of the article.

It sounds like the officers did exactly what they said they would do and tested the firearms in question, then returned those that were not evidence.:D
 
It sounds like the officers did exactly what they said they would do and tested the firearms in question, then returned those that were not evidence
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Exactly what did they test the guns for if they haven't found a projectile?


Why don't the cops do these 'broad gun sweeps' and gun confiscations in 'da hood' in Milwaukee whenever someone gets shot other than the fact that it would be happening on a basis of 2 or 3 times a week and would still be illegal? No matter, lets just keep defending the indefensible.:rolleyes:
 
The way I understand it, they only took evidence from 2 houses that they thought may have been the point of origin for the fire...how is that a broad sweep.
 
Check to find out if they are building a ballistic data base. Great way to add "old unregistered gun(s)" ballistic data - a form of gun registration, no?
 
Look, some folks here might think I dislike cops. That's not the case. I hold a high level of respect for those who would risk their life to protect mine. But in this particular case, a great injustice was carried out by the officers involved.

EVERY SINGLE OFFICER who participated in this miscarriage of justice, and every single senior officer who authorized the operation or who knew about it and did nothing to stop it needs to have their badge stripped. I don't care if that guts their entire police department, those officers have shown themselves to be a danger to the society they are supposed to protect.

I sincerely hope felony charges and a civil suit are pending in this matter.
 
Can the police force you to evacuate?

They can ask, they can't force unless they want to charge you and haul you in.

Every one of those homes in that 6 block area should have asked for a warrant. So no warrant and they just take stuff from your house without so much as a receipt.

We in NJ call that STEALING.

This is some scary crap. I hope it turns out to be a hoax.
 
Some witnesses said the whole neighborhood was evacuated by force and citizens were being told – not asked, but told – to hand over their guns. Some weren’t even asked.
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so tell me again why it was necessary to quarantine homes in a 6 block area..break in private residences and remove home owners to a "safe place" while their homes were all being searched?was it even known what caliber they were to be looking for?

did anyone even get an accurate description of the shooter other than "he ran that way" or "the shot came from over there"

Residents reported returning home from area shelters -- where they were herded by police -- to find their guns gone.
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this part I find to be most disturbing-no knowledge as to what was even taken and when- just that their guns were missing..I guess they were too busy to leave a inventory sheet and a warrant to seize the items missing..

unprofessional.














:barf:
 
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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I wonder in that sounds familiar to our brethren in blue in Wisconsin?

This whole thing sounds like a nightmare come true.
 
An elderly woman said she woke up to find police — who were reported to be dressed in black, quasi-military gear — conducting a search in her home in the early morning hours.
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If this happened in my house my Pit sleeping in the living room would have been shot and killed, hearing the shots I might have come out of the bedroom at least armed ,if not shooting , I would have been shot and killed and possibly 1 or 2 stormtroopers.
I would like to hear one of the LEOs here justify that to my wife and kids, and to the jury sueing the department for wrongful death and anything else the shyster lawyer could come up with. And believe me my wife would pick the most vicious and disreputable lawyer ACLU and NRA could find, and they would all be beating down her door.
 
Geeeeez...

[heavy sarcasm ON] I'm sure all those pesky citizens who complained about the police probably have CRIMINAL RECORDS, right, WA? [heavy sarcasm OFF]

I was blissfully unaware that the police had the authority to herd innocent citizens into shelters. What happens if they had other plans?

I am also blissfully unaware of police procedures regarding confiscation of private property, so when I read that the cops took people's guns without warrants, without receipts, and without even notifying the citizens, the word "theft" keeps coming up for me. Perhaps someone with a better grasp of legal subtleties can enlighten me.

BTW, lest I be misunderstood, I have NO PROBLEM with HONEST cops. But as far as I'm concerned, a cop who's a thief is far worse than an ordinary thief, because he was sworn to uphold the public trust, and nowadays even more so, because dishonest cops seem to be above the law. Why is Lon Horiuchi still free?
 
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Oshkosh police say 'Sorry' for trampling citizens' rights in door-to-door gun confiscations.
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"Trampling citizen's rights?" There is no individual right to keep and bear arms so there should be no need for an apology. Police could, on their own initiative confiscate any gun they come into contact with.

Right?

Rick
 
Uh, firearms_instructor, I'll see ya, and raise ya,

Why is Lon Horiuchi still ALIVE? Sorry to display my upsettedness to you folks, but this is in OSHKOSH, b'gosh, the headquarters of the EAA, where the AIRVENTURE fly-in is happening right now! (or within a week or two either way)


The people who fly into Oshkosh every year, in airplanes which they have built with their own hands, are arguably the most hyper-normal, regular guys, that could possibly exist! Are they to feel funny, and fearful, when they happen to see a local policeman giving them a nasty gaze, if they know what we know?
 
No Warrant? No entry! Simple as that. Evacuate? No. Articulate your reasons for arresting me because I wish to remain in my house. This appears to be a very bad thing the Oshkosh PD did. Way out of bounds.

This is a very bad precedent! Oh by the way. Cops are not in the military!
They are CIVILIANS!!! Some serious 4th Amendment abuse went on here! This calls, no screams out for, civil rights violations charges!
 
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