Woman shot to death outside church

[archerben]

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2442115

January 6th, 2008 @ 5:30pm
Sam Penrod reporting

A woman was shot and killed in Lehi during Sunday services at an LDS church. Police say the woman's husband opened fire on her in the parking lot, without even saying a word, leaving her dead and witnesses hysterical.



The couple were in the middle of a divorce, and the husband apparently waited for his wife to come to church Sunday. That's when he opened fire in the parking lot, while others watched in shock that something so violent could happen at a place of worship.

Two LDS wards were meeting in a chapel in Lehi when several shots were fired, and a 30-year-old mother was gunned down in the parking lot as people were still arriving to church.

Sgt. Jeff Swenson, with the Lehi Police Deptartment, said, "There was no confrontation, there was nothing said. He just opened fire on her, like I said, he fired multiple rounds and several hit her, and then he left the scene."



When police arrived, Kristy Ragsdale was already dead. People inside the church were stunned as some saw and others heard what happened.

Jaide was at the church. She told KSL, "Everyone was freaking out because they didn't know where the guy was and were thinking he was going to come into the church. And so everyone was scared and trying to get out of there."

Police say the shooter was the victim's husband, 35-year old David Ragsdale. He used a 9mm handgun. Police confirm he shot his wife several times at very close range in his moment of rage. He surrendered an hour later.

Sgt. Swenson said, "Our chief had made contact with him by phone. He responded to the police department. That's when they took him down and took him into custody."

A search of court records by Eyewitness News shows his wife sought a protective order against him last month. Police had responded to the couple's home before on civil problems, but David Ragsdale has no previous criminal history.

The parking lot remained a crime scene for hours, and several cars belonging to church members were wrapped in yellow tape, forcing them to walk or get a ride home while police investigated the homicide.

Travis Kozlowski was attending church when the shooting occurred. He said, "Very sad. A lot of the ward knew them, loved them. Absolute shock, I mean, the ward was in tears, disbelief."

What makes this tragedy even sadder is the fact the couple had two young children, ages 3 years and 18 months, who are now without their mother, and their father is in jail, certain to face murder charges.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

What a shame that the LDS church has prohibited carry in all their meeting houses in Utah. It may not have made a difference in this case, but imagine if he decided to head inside and take out a few more?

 

[Biker]

Betcha, Jorg. Question is, can Man's laws supercede God's (insert your own) laws?

I don't think so either.

Biker

 

[cyclist]

while others watched in shock

Rude awakenings are never polite.

What a shame that the LDS church has prohibited carry in all their meeting houses in Utah.

Actually that is a moot point in this particular specific instance. The shooter/husband had a specific target and did not target anyone else. Also the shooting apparently happend outside of the meeting hall. Once the deed/murder was done he left. Any private citizens might possibly not had cause to intercede in this particular specific instance. If the husband had then threatened others then maybe others could have intervened. Not sure what Utah law is in this specific instance as far as taking the shooter/husband into custody or citizen's arrest.

Sucks, but sometimes there is nothing you can do. The story doesn't say if she thought he might do something like this, doesn't say if she was armed, doesn't say if she even saw him approach her. Too much unknown so I'll just shut up now.

Be aware, stay alert, and if something nasty is going on in your life then be even more alert and preparred.

 

[armoredman]

Biker, God never prohibited carry that I know of. I remember Jesus telling His disciples to sell their cloaks to buy a sword. I read that the Catholic Church prohibited weapons in churches to prevent theft of altar plate, etc, waaaaaaay back in the beginning years of the church.

 

[JKimball]

What a shame that the LDS church has prohibited carry in all their meeting houses in Utah.

Jorg,

Is that just a Utah thing?

 

[Beatnik]

Biker, God never prohibited carry that I know of.

Completely different set of rules than you're used to.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

The whole concept of God banning anything is rediculous. Despite your religious beliefs, protecting yourself should be number one on your list. I wouldn't want to worship a god that thought otherwise.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

The story doesn't say if she thought he might do something like this, doesn't say if she was armed, doesn't say if she even saw him approach her.

What would it matter if she did? She couldn't defend herself even if she knew.

Is that just a Utah thing?

As far as I know, yes. Utah law allows a church declare its intention to ban carry on ther premises, either by sign or by listing on the BCI website. The LDS church has taken the state up on this offer. A search of the Church's website only reveals the press release about Utah.

 

[Pilgrim]

That's when he opened fire in the parking lot, while others watched in shock that something so violent could happen at a place of worship.

The sacking of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. was upsetting too, I imagine, though not without precedent.

Pilgrim

 

[230RN]

It's a pack of lies.

Impossible!

After all, she had a protective order against him.

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

No offense, but if God doesn't want me packing a gun for self-defense then he should have made me bulletproof.

A Citizen may make a Citizens Arrest for any Felonious crime they witness, such as assault with a deadly weapon, that ended up as a murder in this case.

Either way, to sit idly by why someone is gunned down, even if he turns to leave, is not acceptable. Might as well not even call the cops. If you have your weapon, it is virtually your duty as a citizen of the United States to protect your fellows.

At least, to me, I feel strongly about this country and its law abiding citizens and will lay my life on the line to defend this country and its people.

If I'm in that parking lot, or in that mall, or that church (unlikely though, considering I'm not a regular attendee) and I see someone with a gun doing, or about to do harm, I will do what I can to stop it or preferably prevent it. If that means shooting another person and killing them, so be it. They made that choice, not me.

 

[cyclist]

Two things (assuming I get this in before the thread lock):

Thing 1: the posted story says she sought a protective order, not that one was granted.

Thing 2: you can change the venue to any other place, a restaurant, a movie theater, a handimart store, any of which could have posted a no weapons sign, and the story would have been the same. The fact that the location was an LDS meeting place is irrelevant to the incident. Discussing religion will bring about the thread lock.

Have a nice day (thread lock in three, two, one,....)

 

[cyclist]

Bobby,

Not to argue against you, but a permit to carry is not a permit to engage in law enforcement. And a right to carry is not a right to engage in law enforcement. Granted that it is a fine line and difficult to avoid crossing at times, and granted that sometimes that fine line gets very muddy and trampled and subjective, but that line is there just the same. I'm not saying to do nothing, I am however saying that more needs to be known before any absolute reply can be garnered.

(stepping out of this thread now since emotions have taken over reasoned replies)

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

the posted story says she sought a protective order, not that one was granted.

Here's a story talking about the one that was granted and then later dismissed as they said they would agree to mutual restraining order as part of the upcoming divorce: http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_7903911

you can change the venue to any other place, a restaurant, a movie theater, a handimart store, any of which could have posted a no weapons sign, and the story would have been the same

Not in Utah. The signs at those other venues carry no statutory weight. The prohibition for churchs who declare themselves off-limit does. While it may have been the same in any other gun free zone, Utah has precious few of those by law.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I feel for her two kids and the rest of the family and pray for their recovery.

They mentioned on the local news last night that she had a restraining order against him. Obviously they work as well as no-gun zones.

I am not part of the LDS church so I don't know all the details about CCW in their house of worship. It sounds like it was a drive-by so she probably wouldn't have had a chance anyway.

 

[chefman]

So sad for those left behind in her family. God bless. Restraining orders aren't worth the paper they're printed on!

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

I don't recommend fulfilling the role of Law Enforcement, nor do I want people running around making a citizens arrest, etc. But, 49 states (North Carolina is the exception) say that a citizen who sees a felony being committed may make a citizens arrest. Kentucky goes as far as to say that if a citizen sees a felony being committed, they should take reasonable action to stop or prevent it, basically encouraging it.

Further, the law clearly upholds the right to 3rd Party Self Defense, and in nearly all states, that includes the use of deadly force. There is perhaps nothing more a civilian can do to take on responsibility than to strap on a firearm. I'm not advocating Rambos and vigilantes, but if you have the means to preventing a felony, and more importantly, saving a life, you really need to consider acting on it. All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to sit idly by.

And as an aside, Cyclist, I'm hoping I came off well tempered here, as I felt your little aside about "emotional responses" overtaking "reasoned" responses was a dig at me that was completely unwarranted and presumptive. And leaving the thread after making it is akin to a hit-and-run.

 

[kludge]

What a shame that the LDS church has prohibited carry in all their meeting houses in Utah.

source?

edit... sorry found it...

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom...irearms-in-latter-day-saint-houses-of-worship

 

[CountGlockula]

Sad. I hope the kids grow up with better role models. Maybe some of the members would take them in.

Sorry, just angered at such tragedies.

 

[JerryM]

While it is truly tragic, CCW would not have prevented it. As I understand it the husband targeted his wife, and when she came out of the church he shot her.

I do not believe any number of security agents could prevent such, unless they had been tipped off, or knew the situation, and the husband.

Jerry

 

[3/325]

Here's what people need to consider:

It's evening, you're walking across a parking lot from your car to the front door along with several other people. You see a man walk up to a woman, point a gun at her, and fire. That's it. That's the moment where you make a choice about your reaction. You don't get a crystal ball that tells you why he's there, what his motives are, or what else he intends to do. You can:

A. Run for cover
B. Act to subdue him
C. Stand there and watch "to see what else he'll do"

Answer "A" is realistic and understandable, and answer "B" is noble. Answer "C" I just find repulsive.

 

[Erebus]

It's evening, you're walking across a parking lot from your car to the front door along with several other people. You see a man walk up to a woman, point a gun at her, and fire.

It's possible, perhaps even likely, that people that attend the same church she does are aware of who her husband is and their marital situation.

That being said, you likely are not going to have time to realize what is going to happen prior to him shooting her unless he is approaching her with a gun drawn.

Now if you are armed and know he just murdered someone(clearly targeted) in front of a crowd of people and he is now leaving you are best to let him leave. If you confront an armed man that is in that state of mind with a bunch of stunned/shocked people around you might wind up causing the injury or death of innocent by-standers. He may turn and start firing and who knows who might get hit. If he isn't a direct threat to anyone at that point let him go and get as much detailed info to the cops as quickly as you can. Maybe follow him at a distance while relaying his location/direction of travel to the police.

At least that is what I would do, I wouldn't want to risk starting a fire fight around a crowd of people. I wouldn't want to explain to a mother why I went Dirty Harry on the guy and her child caught a bullet intended for me.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

A. Run for cover
B. Act to subdue him
C. Stand there and watch "to see what else he'll do"

Answer "A" is realistic and understandable, and answer "B" is noble. Answer "C" I just find repulsive.

What about a mixture of A and C? Just because you watch the guy to see what he is going to do doesn't make you repulsive. It makes you a better witness and more aware/prepared.

 

[cyclist]

Bobby,

sub-comment wasn't a dig at you at all, specifically it was at the religious war that appeared about to erupt. Divorce in process, one spouse kills the other spouse, and people start to focus on the church policies instead of the shooting. I don't sit idly by, but I also don't have deep pockets to defend my actions with, so I don't talk much about what I'd have done if I was there since I wasn't there and don't have a first-hand account of the situation. I can't blanketly say what I'd do in this situation, where engaging the suspect who might very well be suicidal could easily escalate the situation, and where engaging the suspect to stop him with one well placed shot might not be necessary as was proven by the following actions of the suspect. I'm willing to be part of a solution as long as I don't in the process become part of the problem.

Nothing personal, I understand where you're coming from.

Can I go now?????