Working down 9mm load

[CMV]

Today's range session got me thinking about why I'm not doing this.

I loaded up some 115gr 9mm with ACME red bullets. I hadn't used before, but had some other coated cast in the past. My typical 9mm range/training/blasting load is:

115gr FMJ (or plated - whichever I find cheapest)
1.122 COAL
4.8gr W231
Some type of SPP - CCI #500, Wolf SPP. Fiocchi SPP, WSP - whatever I grab off the shelf

So figured I'd back off a bit for the ACME test & did:
115gr ACME coated
1.115 COAL
4.5gr W231
Fiocchi SPP

Just bought a CZ Shadow2 & this was first thing I fed it. It loved it. Then VP9 - loved it, then P320 - loved it. Wasn't expecting much & first time with that bullet, but it actually did real well. Nothing choked on it, everything grouped a little better - and I did test standard load vs this to make sure it wasn't just me having a good day.

Oddly (and this could be imaginary but I was sure I could tell a difference), the recoil felt less. Not counting the CZ which weighs a ton, but even for VP9, I felt I could tell the new load felt a little lighter. I didn't think 3/10 would be noticeable (and could be the bullet, not the charge?)

So wondering if I should work down even more? I think a 115gr bullet & light W231 charge is asking for malfunctions at some point....just dunno where that is. I have a LOT of 9mm autoloaders to feed, so they'd all need to eat any lighter load without becoming fussy about it too. I realize a heavier bullet, different powder I could make a tame 9mm load that cycles better- that's not my goal (at least not reinventing). Will stick with W231/HP38, will stick with 115gr projectile. But since 99% I'm shooting at steel, only real needs are that the ammo functions reliably and is reasonably accurate - don't need the smallest groups possible, don't need high fps. So since 3 guns liked it a lot, maybe just make sure that it works in all others & call it good....but wonder if there would be any benefit getting even closer to starting load. I don't much care about recoil & don't think anything out of a full size 9mm is bad. But if I can make it softer others would appreciate the difference (mrs CMV primarily), new shooters, etc.

Would have to count them up, but probably 15 or so different 9mm autoloaders. So thinking it might be sort of a pain gathering them all up, testing out a lighter load, if they all are ok with it, repeat at even lighter....might be somewhat of a project going through all of them.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

Why do you want one load for all of your guns?
One nice thing about loading your own ammo is to make whatyiu want and/or need. So I understand not wanting a bunch of loads, but I th8nk you’d be better servered with a few loads that work for specific needs than trying to make one “perfect” load that doesn’t isn’t perfect in any.

 

[Walkalong]

Why do you want one load for all of your guns?

It's easy and less complicated? I know I sure do for pistols.

Never mind, misunderstood, need to work on my speed reading comprehension skills.

Yep, agree with @Hokie_PhD

 

[1KPerDay]

Would have to count them up, but probably 15 or so different 9mm autoloaders. So thinking it might be sort of a pain gathering them all up, testing out a lighter load, if they all are ok with it, repeat at even lighter....might be somewhat of a project going through all of them.

Yes it would. But I do sort of what you do. I almost always load 9mm in a manner that will work in all my 9mms. However my P226 has a .357" bore so I load .358" MBC smallballs for it, and I have to load those so short for other pistols that I don't bother. I mostly shoot that pistol in outdoor matches so it works out ok.

When you're working down, make sure you do limp wrist/weak hand testing and make sure the slide locks back on an empty mag. If it doesn't do that reliably, I know that the chances of it malfunctioning in a match are greater. So I go back up to the next powder charge that is reasonably accurate and 100% reliable.

IMO there's little to be gained by working down below a functioning starting charge. But it's your money and your time and your hobby, so have fun and be safe.

 

[ATLDave]

Function test suggestion for light loads: shoot a few weak hand only. Everyone "limp wrists" their weak hand compared to the level of firmness you will apply with a 2-handed hold. If it'll cycle WHO, it'll cycle 2-handed pretty darn consistently.

FWIW, some guys who shoot steel challenge not only load very light ammo, they run lightened recoil springs to take the operating window for their gun down lower. That's sort of the opposite of 1-load-for-all-guns approach - they set up one gun specifically to be able to feed and eject bunny-flatulence loads.

 

[CMV]

Why do you want one load for all of your guns?
One nice thing about loading your own ammo is to make whatyiu want and/or need. So I understand not wanting a bunch of loads, but I th8nk you’d be better servered with a few loads that work for specific needs than trying to make one “perfect” load that doesn’t isn’t perfect in any.

Because I'm going to grab a few guns, a few ammo cans, & head to the range. I don't want to get into this special load for this gun, that special load for that gun....Just go shoot. I want to setup & load 1,000s & 1,000s & not be bothered loading that caliber again for a little while. My range is literally 1/2 mile from my work - I can just grab something in the morning & go shoot a little at lunch. But ultimately I like the simplicity of "it just works". None of my guns are picky about ammo. However a lot prefer a 124gr vs a 115gr. Doesn't matter - they're eating what I'm serving or going hungry Some guys shoot more (a LOT more) but I go thru a 30 cal of 9mm every month or so. Maybe a little longer if weather is bad, a little faster if lots of people want to come over & shoot with me. But to me that's enough volume that I want a universal load they're all content with.

I don't really shoot for precision with 9mm pistols. A little, and I do load for that for some guns. But 99% is 7-15 yds, steel targets, ranging from 4" to full sized silhouettes. All I need is (1) it functions reliably, (2) it's capable of hitting the 4" target (and it isn't the ammo's fault when the 4" gets missed....). My definition of "perfect" for all the guns is quite broad For the type of shooting I'm doing most, I could care less if the rounds grouping could be covered by a quarter or a dollar bill. It's binary to me - hit or miss - so as long as they have enough accuracy to hit, they're good.

I do load some precision rifle stuff. Most is still generic range ammo for .223 but a lot of custom stuff for particular guns too there. I'm feeding 2 precision .223's & 2 precision .308's. So 4 guns are getting a special diet and if any of them sees 100 rounds in a month that's a lot. I only have 1 300BLK so I guess its loads were worked up specifically for it too. That's a lot easier to manage than multiple custom 9mm loads when any single gun might see 0 rounds or 1000 rounds this month. .45ACP same - dozen different guns - they're all getting same 230gr hardball loaded in batches of thousands.

Quite honestly, I would get out of an AR, .45ACP or 9mm pistol that had a true dislike for my standard range ammo before making something special to cater to it. Just like when you run across a rimfire that wants to be real fussy on ammo - easier to just trade out of it & move on than try to remember the rest of your life "only give that one stingers"....

 

[CMV]

Yes it would. But I do sort of what you do. I almost always load 9mm in a manner that will work in all my 9mms. However my P226 has a .357" bore so I load .358" MBC smallballs for it, and I have to load those so short for other pistols that I don't bother. I mostly shoot that pistol in outdoor matches so it works out ok.

When you're working down, make sure you do limp wrist/weak hand testing and make sure the slide locks back on an empty mag. If it doesn't do that reliably, I know that the chances of it malfunctioning in a match are greater. So I go back up to the next powder charge that is reasonably accurate and 100% reliable.

IMO there's little to be gained by working down below a functioning starting charge. But it's your money and your time and your hobby, so have fun and be safe.

Function test suggestion for light loads: shoot a few weak hand only. Everyone "limp wrists" their weak hand compared to the level of firmness you will apply with a 2-handed hold. If it'll cycle WHO, it'll cycle 2-handed pretty darn consistently.

FWIW, some guys who shoot steel challenge not only load very light ammo, they run lightened recoil springs to take the operating window for their gun down lower. That's sort of the opposite of 1-load-for-all-guns approach - they set up one gun specifically to be able to feed and eject bunny-flatulence loads.

Excellent - I didn't even consider doing that today. I could already be on the edge that a sloppy (or novice's) grip is going to cause failures. Before anything else I will load up more of these & try that. Have mrs CMV try some too - she gets an awful lot of "my gun is broken - it keeps jamming" and "your sights are all jacked up - I shoot low & left with your guns".....

 

[LiveLife]

My experience with various 115 gr FMJ and plated RN loaded to 1.130"-1.135" OAL is that around 4.5 gr of W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol I get reliable slide cycling, especially with compacts and subcompacts. With 4.6 gr, I get greater accuracy and 4.8 gr produces the best accuracy. IMO, 115 gr bullet should be pushed near max load data for optimal accuracy.

With 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with longer bullet base loaded to same 1.130"-1.135" OAL, 4.3 gr of W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol produces reliable slide cycling and accuracy.

Can you load lighter with W231? Sure but you may need to compensate by using shorter OAL (Say down to 1.110"-1.115") to produce same consistency of chamber pressures and maintain accuracy.

Can I go even lighter/shorter? Not for me as I have been there and done that. With tapered 9mm case, at some point (shorter than 1.110" for FMJ/Plated RN) case taper increases to the point (Even with case wall thickness increasing) where I actually start losing neck tension and bullet just drops into the case.

 

[Kp321]

In an effort to be kind to my pocketbook, pistols and body I have need experimenting with light 9mm loads. I have settled on 3.5 gr of Bullseye and a 124 gr plated or 130gr plain lead bullet. These loads run fine in all my pistols, including a Luger, and my AR carbine. Plated only in my Glock of course. Very accurate and easy shooting. 2000 rounds per pound of powder!

 

[CMV]

My experience with various 115 gr FMJ and plated RN loaded to 1.130"-1.135" OAL is that around 4.5 gr of W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol I get reliable slide cycling, especially with compacts and subcompacts. With 4.6 gr, I get greater accuracy and 4.8 gr produces the best accuracy. IMO, 115 gr bullet should be pushed near max load data for optimal accuracy.

With 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with longer bullet base loaded to same 1.130"-1.135" OAL, 4.3 gr of W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol produces reliable slide cycling and accuracy.

Can you load lighter with W231? Sure but you may need to compensate by using shorter OAL (Say down to 1.110"-1.115") to produce same consistency of chamber pressures and maintain accuracy.

Can I go even lighter/shorter? Not for me as I have been there and done that. With tapered 9mm case, at some point (shorter than 1.110" for FMJ/Plated RN) case taper increases to the point (Even with case wall thickness increasing) where I actually start losing neck tension and bullet just drops into the case.

This makes me think i should stay where I am and verify it works on everything. I use either the lee pro auto disk or Dillon dispenser. The lee next step down is 4.2 -4.3gr with the auto disk and I prefer it to the Dillon with W231. So instead of reinventing the wheel I’m good with a BDS recommendation that 4.5 is near bottom for reliability.

Your lengths are slightly longer than mine. Is that an issue in anything with a round nose profile? I had good tension with these at 1.115”, but see no reason they couldn’t be a little longer.

It was surprising...at least in the 3 that got to test it...that these were notably tighter grouping than the 115 gr fmj with a little more powder. I don’t pay much attention to that and rarely just slow fire a paper target with 9mm. The CZ just tore out the x ring of a b29. The 320 about the same but larger area. The vp9 more of a dispersed pattern, but still smaller overall group of 15 vs my standard fmj stuff. If I were working up a load for the CZ or the p320, I would have stopped there.

 

[LiveLife]

With this $1 modification of Pro Auto Disk, I am no longer limited to powder charges dropped by fixed Auto Disk holes and can drop infinitely adjustable charges consistently, especially with small granule powders like W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/working-diy-micro-auto-disk.741988/

Since you are using shorter OAL with larger sized coated lead bullets (.356" vs .355"), 4.6 gr may work for you and still produce good accuracy.

Your lengths are slightly longer than mine. Is that an issue in anything with a round nose profile? I had good tension with these at 1.115”, but see no reason they couldn’t be a little longer.

With 115 gr FMJ/Plated RN, I have gone as short as 1.110"-1.115" to further increase neck tension and increase accuracy with lighter target loads using Red Dot/Promo and W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol.

With MBC Hi-Tek coated 124 gr RN, I went as short as 1.050" due to nose profile/ogive of the bullet - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...with-short-leade-barrel.835033/#post-10804116

 

[CMV]

I saw that disk mod in different threads you posted. Great idea. Just wonder if it stays consistent or does some get caught on threads or anything? I like mine since...at least with w231....it is always either spot on or +1/10. Never light, never/extremely rarely +2/10.

I have slightly enlarged a disk with a light chamfer tool application, or slightly reduced with a spot of epoxy to get precisely want I want when the standards sizes are in between. But normally, it has a size exactly what I want. In fact I was a little disappointed when I got the Dillon. I was expecting that powder drop to be better (cuz blue) but find my lee ones are more accurate and neater.

 

[DukeConnor]

i routinely load 3.8 grains w231 in my 9mm. it cycles all my 9mm's.

a couple will cycle at 3.5. for some reason my smallest 9, a xds, doesn't cycle well with a ultra low charge but the full size Gen 3's will.

 

[rfwobbly]

You may have a "good load", but you don't know if you have the "best load".

You really can't tell anything from a single load. You'll need at least 2, hopefully 4 or 5 to compare. My advice would be to hold the OAL at the same length and then vary the amount of powder very slightly in both positive and negative directions. You never know, the "best load" might be only 0.1gr away.

As the saying goes.... "You can't draw a graph with a singe data point."

 

[LiveLife]

i routinely load 3.8 grains w231 in my 9mm. it cycles all my 9mm's.

a couple will cycle at 3.5. for some reason my smallest 9, a xds, doesn't cycle well with a ultra low charge but the full size Gen 3's will.

I found compacts and subcompacts to have stiffer recoil spring rates in general than full size "service" pistols with longer recoil springs and lighter loads that will cycle full size pistol slides may not reliably cycle compact/subcompact slides.

Recoil springs and captured recoil spring assemblies are consumable items (Like magazine springs/followers) that require replacement after specified number of rounds factory recommends or when they become worn/weak. Factory 16 lb recoil springs on 1911s and Glocks over time (Sometimes in several thousand round count) will become 15 lb recoil springs and will cycle lighter powder charge loads but felt recoil will increase with factory/full power loads.

I have seen gun owners who never change recoil springs and complain about too much felt recoil and muzzle flip. As a habit from USPSA match days, I carry spare gun parts in my range bag (along with a mini cleaning kit) and when I change out their 1911/Glock recoil springs with a new one (Especially 40S&W Glocks), they are amazed at how felt recoil is less snappy and muzzle flip reduced.

If you shoot a lot, another option is using extra power springs so after they are "broken in" they will be at factory recommended spring rate. For this reason, all of my magazine springs are replaced with extra power springs - https://www.gunsprings.com/GLOCK ®/cID1/mID5/dID116#148

I load for multiple pistols and even light target loads must cycle the slides of all my pistols, including compacts and subcompacts.

You may have a "good load", but you don't know if you have the "best load".

You really can't tell anything from a single load. You'll need at least 2, hopefully 4 or 5 to compare. My advice would be to hold the OAL at the same length and then vary the amount of powder very slightly in both positive and negative directions. You never know, the "best load" might be only 0.1gr away.

This is so true and reason why we conduct full powder work up after determining max/working OAL/COL.

What rfwobbly posted happens in real life for 9mm with small internal volume case capacity and small reloading variables can have significant affect on chamber pressures/group size.

When I was doing load development with IMR's new powder Target using 115 gr FMJ at typical 1.130" OAL, start charge was 4.0-4.1 gr (metering variance due to flake size). As you can see below, when the powder charge was increased to 4.2-4.3 gr, group size tightened up but got large again at 4.5-4.6 gr - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...for-9mm-continues.845981/page-5#post-11034535

Had I not done a full powder work up, I may not have identified this "accuracy node" as I would not have accuracy trending data to work with.

To further squeeze out potential additional accuracy, once working OAL and most accurate powder charge are determined, I will incrementally decrease the OAL to see if accuracy improves.

When you are developing lighter target loads around 125-130 power factor with lower powder charges, this is particularly pertinent. Below 10 shot 25 yard comparison group picture shows longer working OAL of 1.155" with RMR 115 gr FMJ on the left but decreasing the OAL to 1.130" produced smaller tighter group (And why many use shorter 1.130" for 115 gr FMJ/RN instead of longer OAL).

For Sport Pistol load development, even shorter 1.110" OAL was tested with RMR 115 gr FMJ to squeeze out more accuracy compared to longer 1.130" OAL load (8 round groups shot at 25 yards).

Since OP of this thread is "Working down 9mm", I would next test 4.6 and 4.7 gr of Sport Pistol at 1.110" to see if accuracy is maintained.

 

[Riccochet]

I run XTreme 115gr PRN's with 4.1gr of W231 at 1.090" COL. Cycles all my 9mm pistols just fine. YMMV and I take no responsibility for how this load data works in your pistols.

 

[Walkalong]

I found compacts and subcompacts to have stiffer recoil spring rates in general than full size "service" pistols with longer recoil springs and lighter loads that will cycle full size pistol slides may not reliably cycle compact/subcompact slides.

Yep.