Working loads up with magnum primers.

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Bazoo

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I occasionally use magnum pistol primers in place of regular primers when loading 44 special for my ruger flattop blackhawk. I worked up the following load,

Lee 432-265-RF,
Bullseye 4.6
CCI 350

I have yet to find a standard primer load that matches it. Not saying I am done trying. Nor that my accuracy testing was definative.

I found better loads using standard primers when using the RCBS 44-240-SWC, so far. But I can't say I have anything great yet.

Does anyone else have loads they found to be better with magnum primers?
 
I bought 20,000 Fiocci small rifle magnum primers a few years ago when there was a killer deal on them (don't I wish that was a reality now) I used them in existing loads on 223 and there was no change whatsoever in downrange performance. I didn't actually chrono them compared to the regular SR primers I was using, but I could care less what the chrono said if it was shooting well. To be fair though, the existing load was in the middle of the powder range. If I were loading hot loads, I would have backed it down a bit before trying the magnum primers.

Other than these, I've only ever used magnum primers when called for in the load books.
 
I've played with Federal Small Pistol and Magnum primers and have found very little difference , maybe 25 - 50 fps depending on the load. The magnum primers would be more consistent and I could get better groups at times.

You can only tell if you have a chronograph.
 
Accuracy means different things to different shooters. Some think 3" patterns @ 7yds is fantastic. Others use nra x-ring standards as a gauge for accuracy. Others like myself use 6-shot groups (or whatever the revolver holds) when testing loads for accuracy with revolvers looking for x-ring accuracy.

What you've found is something that you should of been doing all along. Most casters don't do this kind of testing and they really should.

Mag primers don't have a huge affect on over all pressure of the revolver/pistol loads when fast burning powders are used. They will affect the short start pressure of the load. When you see large increases (20fps+) in velocity or better accuracy with a mag primer using bullseye/clays/titegoup/fast burning powders. That's telling you to look at your bullet fit or alloy's hardness/crimp.

Not all bullets are designed/created equal. Same powder charge but 1 bullet could be seated deep, bullet base/bottom drive band could be more efficient, etc. The bullets crimp groove depth/size/amount of crimp can affect how a mag vs standard primer affects accuracy.

Myself I use mag primers to my advantage and do a lot of testing with them. These are the things I test/look at: Crimp/alloy/bullet diameter

Too many times I see on this website (and others) "I only crimp enough to remove the flare." . I work up loads using standard primers and fast burning powders using 8/9bhn alloy/cast bullets. Then I switch to mag primers and retest. If there's an increase in velocity I increase the crimp. If the increase in velocty with the mag primers is still there after increasing the crimp I increase the diameter of the bullet.

Doing these standard VS mag primer tests with soft alloys and fast burning powders lets you dial in your bullet diameter, amount of crimp & alloy issues. At the end of the day I you see no or minimal changes in accuracy or velocity when switching between standard vs mag primers you have everything dialed in.

These type of things tend to show up more with low pressure loads (16,000psi or less). But when you dial everything in with low pressure loads it makes it easier to find why loads fail at higher pressures. Using mixed cases should have more of an affect on your loads/accuracy then a standard VS mag primer with pistol/revolver loads out to 50yds.

Anyway, it's a good thing to cross check a load/cast bullet/alloy with mag vs standard primers using fast burning powders. Any changes are telling you something isn't right. I'd be taking a look at your alloy/bullet bhn 1st. Bullet hardness is sooooooooooooo over rated!!!! I've showed these targets before, they're not hand cherry picked by any means. Nothing more than the targets used that day testing loads.

8/9bhn alloy cast bullets sized correctly & the reloading dies setup to maximize the case neck tension and crimp using mixed brass.
18,000psi+ clays/45acp loads 3 different bullets 5-shot groups @ 50ft all 1" or less 4.3gr clays
GcK8If3.jpg

Playing around sighting in a contender @ 100yds 1 1/2" 3-shot group (bottom right) +/- 25,000psi load
wLHw6OR.jpg

The 6.5gr load of bullseye is 30,000psi+, 2 different bullets/2 different loads 6-shot groups @ 50yds 357mag all 2 /14" or less
CfpwHXk.jpg

5 different bullets/7 different powders loads up to 25,000psi 6-shot groups @ 25yds 13 targets 1 1/2" or less
BAyAIIY.jpg

Anyway it's a good thing to cross check you loads with mag vs standard primers. When you have little or no affect on your load it makes it sooooooooooo much easier to use the same alloy to dial other loads in. Especially when using low pressure loads.
 
That's interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'll have to investigate further.

I am sizing my bullets to .431, and haven't tried any other sizes yet.

I don't use hard cast, either ww alloy or 50/50 ww/Pb, both with 1-2% tin.

I do use a healthy crimp.

I am using an NOE expander plug .001 over bullet diameter. Though, for the lee bullet, it's so long it goes below the expanded section. Having a GC on it keeps the bottom driving band from being swaged down.

I have a RCBS 44-240-SWC. I've yet to find a great load with it. Plinking accuracy, of around 3" at 25 yards. But I have some more testing to do.
 
I occasionally use magnum pistol primers in place of regular primers when loading 44 special for my ruger flattop blackhawk. I worked up the following load,

Lee 432-265-RF,
Bullseye 4.6
CCI 350

I have yet to find a standard primer load that matches it. Not saying I am done trying. Nor that my accuracy testing was definative.

I found better loads using standard primers when using the RCBS 44-240-SWC, so far. But I can't say I have anything great yet.

Does anyone else have loads they found to be better with magnum primers?
IMO if it ain't broken don't fix it. I would stick with the magnum primers you are now using. Besides, they are usually more available than the standard primers.
 
I have seen little difference with SR or SRM primers when after working up loads for accuracy before I had a crony. So I never bothered to check them. I now use the SRM for 223 loads in my AR's using loads I have worked up years ago and are still accurate. I also primarily use SR primers for handgun ammo as long as the handgun will set them off reliably.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I’m not opposed to using magnum primers. I’m wondering if someone else has found better or worse results using them.

Several responses here indicate they seen no meaningful difference in rifle accuracy. I’m sure it changes pressure some in that application.

But my question is primarily about 44 special and other low pressure cartridges such as 38 special, or special level loads in magnum cases. All I have seen in my searches is were folks substitute primers because that’s what they had, and not because it improved their loads. Usually in making some sort of blasting ammo.

I am using all same headstamped brass, trimmed for consistency. And I’m working up loads with both magnum and standard primers.

I don’t have a chronograph, and while I see. Could be useful, the numbers don’t mean much to me if the group size doesn’t correlate.
 
With the primer shortage I bought a LRP pocket uniformer to deepen LP cartridge pockets (44 mag and 45 Colt) to accept LR primers. I rarely shoot rifles any more, and had a couple thousand LRPs. In loading 44 mag brass with deep-seated bullets (so basically 44 spec. loads) I found exceptional accuracy with the LR primers and bulky, fast pistol powders like 700X and e3 in 5 and 6 grain loads. Better than the same loads with either F150s or CCI300s in unaltered brass. I don't know whether the increased accuracy is from the hotter primers or the uniformed pockets.
 
I needed some large pistol primers, store had some, but when I got there they only had large pistol magnum. I don't have a LPM revolver, so they have just been sitting on my shelf and I have since found some LPPs. I was thinking if needed I could use them in 45 acp, but as infrequently as I get to the range right now have not had to. Maybe I will find someone local who wants to trade them for some SPMs as I do have .357s and am running short on SPM primers.

This thread got me thinking about it again - i.e. loading up SPPs in .357 and loading up LPMs in .45 ACP or .45 colt,

Thanks for the nudge

Dave
 
Thanks for the replies.

I’m not opposed to using magnum primers. I’m wondering if someone else has found better or worse results using them.

Several responses here indicate they seen no meaningful difference in rifle accuracy. I’m sure it changes pressure some in that application.

But my question is primarily about 44 special and other low pressure cartridges such as 38 special, or special level loads in magnum cases. All I have seen in my searches is were folks substitute primers because that’s what they had, and not because it improved their loads. Usually in making some sort of blasting ammo.

I am using all same headstamped brass, trimmed for consistency. And I’m working up loads with both magnum and standard primers.

I don’t have a chronograph, and while I see. Could be useful, the numbers don’t mean much to me if the group size doesn’t correlate.
Depends on the burn characteristics of the powder and the length of the barrel I’m loading for. Blue Dot in .38Spl I use magnum primer and start loads then work up to the velocity I’m looking for. I get better burn completion and higher velocities with a magnum primer. Same results as with a standard small rifle primer. Unique in .38Spl doesn’t work any better or worse with a magnum primer. The caveat is, watch for signs of pressure spikes and make sure your case fill is compatible with the powder’s personality.
 
With the primer shortage I bought a LRP pocket uniformer to deepen LP cartridge pockets (44 mag and 45 Colt) to accept LR primers. I rarely shoot rifles any more, and had a couple thousand LRPs. In loading 44 mag brass with deep-seated bullets (so basically 44 spec. loads) I found exceptional accuracy with the LR primers and bulky, fast pistol powders like 700X and e3 in 5 and 6 grain loads. Better than the same loads with either F150s or CCI300s in unaltered brass. I don't know whether the increased accuracy is from the hotter primers or the uniformed pockets.
Thanks for the reply. That's quite interesting. Would you mind sharing more please Do you recall what group sizes before and after? And what range, and rifle or handgun?

I am not low on pistol primers, but I have a batch of Hornady brass that some of the pockets are deeper. Some, the primers set below the surface .008. It was 44 magnum, but I've trimmed it for special. If I uniformed them for rifle primers, it might open up another works to me. I'll have to think on it.
 
I shoot 10-shot groups at 15 yards, the length of the indoor range I belong to, off sandbags, with a 6½" S&W 629 Classic. 5.4 gr of 700X averaged 1.12" with LRPs, and 1.66" with F150s. 6.2 gr of e3 averaged 1.24" with LRPs, and 1.58" with CCI300s. Bullets were 215 gr SWC seated to crimp over the front driving band @ 1.46".
 
Thanks for the replies.

I’m not opposed to using magnum primers. I’m wondering if someone else has found better or worse results using them.

Several responses here indicate they seen no meaningful difference in rifle accuracy. I’m sure it changes pressure some in that application.

But my question is primarily about 44 special and other low pressure cartridges such as 38 special, or special level loads in magnum cases. All I have seen in my searches is were folks substitute primers because that’s what they had, and not because it improved their loads. Usually in making some sort of blasting ammo.

I am using all same headstamped brass, trimmed for consistency. And I’m working up loads with both magnum and standard primers.

I don’t have a chronograph, and while I see. Could be useful, the numbers don’t mean much to me if the group size doesn’t correlate.

Your question is much like a 'which bullet is better' question... only your particular firearm will tell you what is better, there is really no other way to define it.

I ran a simple test some years ago... 5.56mm, 55grn FMJ, H335, and CCI 400 and 450 primers... all else being equal... through my Colt 20" H-bar. If you recall, H335 load data sometimes suggests a Magnum primer for it (and other ball powders) for good ignition. What shook out in my test was the standard CCI 400 primers actually produced slightly higher velocity, and lower SD. I did not test for accuracy... my question was about consistency.

I've often wondered about the differences between standard and benchrest primers, too... is there really that big of a difference? Again, I would say that depends... on the effort put into the handloads themselves, the components, the load... and ultimately the firearm itself.

Given your current parameters, as stated in the highlighted paragraph above, I find it very unlikely a Magnum primer would give you better results... but you never know. ;)
 
I got my data suggestion from searching online. I recorded whom, but I can’t recall without my notes, but it came from the cast bullet website.

I tried 5.5 unique with that 432-265-rf today. It showed promise but I couldn’t see well enough this evening. This is my own.

I do have some ranchdog data, that he worked up in quick loads, but not what’s been listed. I only found one place with special data specifically from him, since his site was down after I got into this mould.

If anyone has his data for 44 special, or 444 marlin, I’d be grateful if you’d share. I have his 44 mag data for this bullet.
 
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