World record for aimed bolt-action rifle fire

[gaweidert]

My father-in-law (USMC 1939 1948) was involved in testing the Johnson rifle at one point. He really loved he rifle. As part of the competition he had to shoot a 1903 Springfield, a Johnson and a Garand. The trial was 10 rounds a speed and accuracy test. With his Springfield he could actually out shoot the Garand, but not the M41 Johnson. Loading the en bloc clip slowed him down and it is much harder to reload than using a stripper clip while prone.

He is still kicking at almost 92 and once demonstrated his shooting technique using my Springfield Mark I. He would shoot the Springfield, actually slap the bolt with his hand during the recoil and bring it right back down on target. As soon the the sights reached the target he let her rip and repeated the process. It was all happened very quickly. With the fast acting Enfield bolt and 10 round mag I can see a lot of riflemen passing this test.

 

[SaxonPig]

I can't buy 38 rounds in 60 seconds with reloading hitting a 12" target at 300 yards. I simply cannot believe it.

That's almost as amazing as getting off 3 shots from a Carcano in 5.6 seconds and scoring 2 hits on a moving target.

 

[M-Cameron]

38 aimed shots in 1 min.

...impressive shooting for sure, but i dont think its the godly feat some of you are making it out to be.

now i dont own an enfield......but i do have lots of experience with bolt actions...

38 shots/min = 1.57 seconds per shot....

now i know that it is entirely possible to make an aimed shot in a little over 1 second........heck, when someone gets "in the groove"....its not uncommon to see aimed shots in as little as .5-.75 seconds.

.....so say you take approx 1-1.25 seconds on each shot....that leaves you about 12.5-22 seconds for reloading and other time expenses.....

seems fully do-able to me.

 

[bigedp51]

1KPerDay

Very interesting! Thanks

What happened with the "two eight oh"?

The .280 lost out to the 7.62 NATO, it is a shame because even today in the U.S. we are testing similar rounds looking for a replacement for the 5.56 M16/A4 caliber ammunition.

 

[06]

Was shooting my old '03 deer hunting. Got off three shots and my son swore I was using my 742 because of the rapid fire. And yes, got accurate hits with all three rounds. The Enfield has the reputation of being the fastest bolt action. It just never caught on here in the states like in other parts of the world. I have started loading my own 303s as I find Boxer primed brass. The Enfield has been in military use for well over 100 years--189(?) to present. Somebody likes it.

 

[Greg Mercurio]

Many years ago in a seminar on Manufacturing, I watched a video that demonstrated the building of a house in 8 hours from bare dirt. It was quite entertaining to watch the time-lapse video compressed into about a 30 minute demonstration. It was also carefully choreographed, with tons of people working in parallel. A building inspector for the city the house was built in was signing off on mandatory inspections in real-time. Probably the worst day of his life, he actually had to work. At the end of 7 hours and 50something minutes, he did the final walk-through and signed off on the structure. The homeowner was speechless. Just-in-time taken to a ridiculous extreme. Prior to the seminar if asked I would have said impossible. Unfortunately I don't know everything, and after watching the video, I was reminded of that fact. In spades. Just because YOU can't do it, does not mean it can't be done.

And yes I am qualified for the Special Olympics, I'm an Engineer.

 

[wanderinwalker]

would be interesting to try it with an AR15. standing to prone, slung in, i'll bet 40-50 hits on a 24" target isn't difficult with a regular service rifle setup

24" target and allowing the magazines to full-capacity? Even figuring 20-round magazines, I suspect an experienced Rattle Battle shooter could probably get 60 down on a 24" target with all hits with an AR-15 Service Rifle.

The 37 or 38 hits in a minute on a 24" target with an Enfield doesn't sound at all impossible. Difficult, sure, but not completely unattainable. I've seen bolt-gunners finish rapid fire strings with time to spare while shooting cleans, knots under 2-MOA. If they only had to put them in the black bullseye to get full points value, I imagine a couple of them could run a 700 or 70 into 20-30 RPM loading from 5-round strippers.

 

[DougW]

Gents, keep in mind that the first 10 rounds were fired, then the rifle was loaded 5 rounds at a time, not stacking in another 10 (the reload procedure calls for 5 round reloading under fire). A 5 reload is very quick. I use one of my #4mk1's in Vintage Bolt Rifle matches and I always finish my 10 rounds/80 seconds in less than 40 seconds (and ahead of everyone else I might add). I don't have the accuracy thing down that good at that speed, but that Enfield flows so smoothly! The record described by the OP is legit.

 

[Jeff F]

I'm with DougW on this one. I am an Enfield shooter and read quite a bit on the rifles history. That story about 38 aimed shots in a minute is well documented. I also do not have the accuracy thing down that good at that speed either.

 

[goon]

Keep in mind, the 38 rounds fired is the record too. This would indicate that not just anyone could do it, and that the man who set the record was able to do something remarkable... because he set a record.
So if you can do say, 30-34 rounds a minute, you might just be doing a damn good job of running an Enfield.

 

[StrawHat]

I find it interesting that folks disbelieve this because they can not duplicate it. I guess Ed McGivern did not accomplish what he claimed either. Or Sir Edmund Hilary did not make it to the top of Everest.

38 hits in one minute is pretty spectacular, even awesome. It does show how speed shooting and accuracy have diminished over the years.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The 37 or 38 hits in a minute on a 24" target with an Enfield doesn't sound at all impossible. Difficult, sure, but not completely unattainable. I've seen bolt-gunners finish rapid fire strings with time to spare while shooting cleans, knots under 2-MOA. If they only had to put them in the black bullseye to get full points value, I imagine a couple of them could run a 700 or 70 into 20-30 RPM loading from 5-round strippers.

+1. Doesn't strike me, in terms of overall performance, as anything outside the realm of what top end competitive shooters do today with their equivalent gear.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I don't doubt it's possible, i just doubt the oft cited snoxall existed.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Now that is an interesting separate question. I suspect the specific account involving him is probably oft repeated from a single source (since no accounts seems to consist of anything different than the same 2-3 sentences that have been quoted in this thread). It would be interesting to figure out what that original source was and assess its validity from there.

 

[Feanaro]

Wow guys this information is well documented and widely distributed.

I will give you widely distributed. It appears in many books on the subject. To me, this is not sufficient evidence. These sort of stories can and do get repeated until they becomes "true" even among professionals, without any vetting.*

I think there are really two claims to verify here. The Snoxall account seems plausible and there is a first hand source. I take more issue with the oft-repeated story of Germans believing themselves to be under machine-gun fire from a few Brits with SMLE's. I never see firsthand documentation for that story. What is achievable with clips carefully laid out, little stress and a large, stationary target is not necessarily what can be done on the battlefield.

Surely if "The Germans thought every British soldier was armed with a machine gun" and "Back then EVERY Tommy was trained and expected to be able to fire 30 aimed shots per minute," the Germans would have taken notice of such feats. Talked about it in letters back home, written it in their memoirs. Students of the rifle on the Allied side, like Captain Herbert McBride, would have been impressed enough to jot down a note or two about that. I'll note he didn't have anything to say in "A Rifleman Went to War," that I can remember.

Frankly, it sounds like the sort of boasting the winner of a conflict is usually allowed. I don't see it out of the realm of possibility that some group of Germans somewhere thought themselves under machine-gun fire from some pack of well train Brits but generalizing that to the entire conflict seems a little... out of proportion. It just doesn't pass my smell test. Heh. SMLE test.

It would be interesting to figure out what that original source was and assess its validity from there.

Cosmoline provided a link to a discussion that potentially identifies the source.


*As evidence, many medieval warfare experts will tell you that the English longbow had its origins in Wales. Why? A mis-translation of "The Itinerary Through Wales" by Gerald of Wales. Correctly translated, his description of Welsh bows says they are "made... of wild elm... not calculated to shoot an arrow to a great distance." In other words, not like the English longbow, made of yew and capable of flinging an arrow a fair distance. Actual archeological evidence shows that the longbow is basically a universal weapon among the cultures of Europe. The translation error was made by John Morris, who was read and accepted, and it trickled down through others who never bothered to check his facts. In spite of research revealing this error, it is still the standard explanation. This kind of error is surprisingly common in the field.

 

[SeekHer]

Believe, don't believe, but of the seven uncles and cousins who served and survived the Second World War and some also Korea (five didn't), every one of them could put 25 to 28 rounds downrange, on a target, within one minute while in their 60s.

How fast can you shoot and reload a 6 shot S&W revolver--think you can do 12 shots in under 3 seconds drawing from a holster, I can't but Jerry Miculek sure as Hell can.

His speed records to date:
Fire six shots (each) from 10 different .38 caliber revolvers in 17.12 seconds that broke Ed McGivern's record of 25 seconds.
Fire five shots from a revolver on target in 0.57 seconds nearly matched the record held by Ed McGivern of 0.45 sec (first shot on 9/13/1932).
Fire six shots, reload, fire six shots from 1 revolver in 2.99 seconds.
Fire eight shots from a revolver on a single target in 1.00 second.
Fire eight shots from a revolver on four targets (2 hits each target) in 1.06 seconds.

Also check into some of the stuff that Bob Munden has done with S/A pistols.

See what Scott Breeze can do with a Winchester SX3 on doves in Argentina or what Patrick Flanigan or Tom Knapp can do with hand tossed clays.

Feanaro -- The German soldiers did mention it in their letters home but the censors cut them out and not until after the war, when memoirs started getting published does this come to light from the German side and was even commented on by the Americans.
It (rate of fire) appears to some extent in the following that I've read:
The Storm Of Steel by Ernst Junger
The American Expeditionary Forces Volumes #1 to #6 edited/interview by Leonard Nason in I believe #5 about Sgt. Eadie.
Hot Blood And Cold Steel by Andy Simpson and in a number of personal diaries and/or memoirs by British soldiers, mostly officers.

Also you're forgetting one factor--probably 60% of the soldiers serving were totally illiterate and that also included the AEF but more so with the Turks and Russians...Major requirement for NCO status in the BEF was the ability to read, write and calculate.

 

[goon]

Instead of arguing about it, why don't some of you Enfield shooters post your best times/scores so we can at least get a baseline?

I'm thinking if a regular nobody with an Enfield can get 30 or so rounds a minute, it would give a lot of credibility to the original quote (which I admittedly pretty much believe anyhow).
And again, it's claimed that this was the record. Not everyone can set a record. Only the best can set records... so this claim isn't that just anyone can get up to 38 rounds a minute hitting the target.
Is it really so unbelievable that one excellent, well-trained marksman firing what's admittedly one of the fastest and most combat effective bolt-action rifles ever made under ideal conditions on a training range could set this record? I think it's totally plausible.
Maybe this is one for mythbusters...

 

[Steve Marshall]

I once got 40 shots off with 20 hits on two pices of typing paper centered on a B-27 silhouette. All but three hit the silhouette. Unfortunately, this was at 200 yards, from a bench. It was a misguided effort to beat, read that as come close to Sgt. Snoxall's record. At the time , I was under the impression it was a 24" target at 200 yards.
That was with a #4 MK1.

 

[Dr T]

I wonder how many of the doubters have fired an SMLE. I also wonder if any are aware of the design and operational procedures used to achieve this rate of fire.

As SeekHer points out, high rates of fire were regularly achieved with proper training and practice.

 

[Cosmoline]

The doubters would have more credibility if this score emerged from a vacuum and was far above any other. But in fact there are many documented scores near the record. Look up J.A. Wallingford, who was just one shy of the Snoxall record. The British Army produced some of the world's finest marksmen at that time. Unless all of the championships and trophies were part of a vast conspiracy, I think we have to accept that the old Enfields could be fired at an astonishingly fast rate.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Untill Snoxall can be verified, i think we should just consider Wallingford's record as the correct one.

I've shot the match, I didn't do so hot with my number4.

 

[SaxonPig]

I'm a doubter and i once owned a SMLE.

Please note that McGivern and the other trick shooters mentioned were/are professional shooters using custom guns... and their feats are more plausible to me than 38/60 with a bolt gun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Why is Wallingford credible, while Snoxall isn't? The difference is a single round folks? We have no idea how many times the guy tried this and failed, before, one day, he had it all together, and set the record. It took 25 years for somebody to beat Jesse Owen's longjump record (1935), and 23 years for somebody to beat Bob Beamon (1968), and that was Mike Powell (1991), who's record has stood for 20 years, so in the past 75 years with constant continuing competition, three individuals have held the record for 68 of those years..., yet when it comes to a shooting event requiring control, speed, and coordination, which has only survived due to nostalgia, for the bolt gun for regular soldiers was gone from all of the major powers around 60 years ago, we question why nobody has surpassed this record, so therefore it must be mythical? The guy couldn't have been the Bob Munden of the SMLE?

LD

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm not saying it can't be done and that it hasn't been done. I'm saying that the small arms school corps says the record was set by wallingford.

38 shots in a minute on a 12 MOA target is certainly possible.

 

[goon]

I'm a doubter and i once owned a SMLE.

Please note that McGivern and the other trick shooters mentioned were/are professional shooters using custom guns... and their feats are more plausible to me than 38/60 with a bolt gun.

And the guys who shot Enfields that fast were professional soldiers, training with and shooting their country's issue weapon and ammunition supplied by their government.