World record for aimed bolt-action rifle fire

[M67]

Of course it's possible. Just because you or I can't do it doesn't mean that someone else can't.

38 hits in 60 seconds is .63 per second.

This video shows 17 hits in 25 seconds, .68 per second, or slightly faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfY899uNOk0

Different rifle, different rules so not quite the same thing, but a very good indication of what that kind of speed looks like.

And of course in both cases we are talking about hits, not shots fired. The guy in the video shoots at a target slightly less than half the size at slightly more than half the range compared to the mad minute thing.

 

[SeekHer]

I'm a doubter and i once owned a SMLE.

Please note that McGivern and the other trick shooters mentioned were/are professional shooters using custom guns... and their feats are more plausible to me than 38/60 with a bolt gun.

Excuse me, but what amount of super custom work was done to McGivern's guns back in the 1930's? A trigger job, polished the cylinders and probably installed a slightly different front sight as that was about the extent of the custom work available then for the models that were available by the few companies making them?

Tom Knapp didn't use anything but a Benelli with a magazine extension and some port adjustments for the lower power, shortened, shells he used...I believe that Flannigan had the same done to his SX2 as they were there to entertain the people but more so to sell the guns more so then to set records...So their guns were as close to stock as possible.

I could assure you that the armourer's polished the Hell out of that action and stoned the trigger and made sure that everything was just tickety boo before he shot for the record and for any of the next guys attempts as well.

Just look for the results of the inter army shooting results of both wars and between wars, by the competition Creedmoor and Wimbledon or Queens and Dominion Cup events...Check what the .280 Ross rifle was capable of in competition not by the abysmal results in the trenches.

As to Snoxall being verified, how much more verified do you want when it's in the official archives of the British Army? It was still the standard for recruits and old timers to strive for, even here in Canada until they did away with the SMLE.

 

[HorseSoldier]

As to Snoxall being verified, how much more verified do you want when it's in the official archives of the British Army? It was still the standard for recruits and old timers to strive for, even here in Canada until they did away with the SMLE.

Actually, if you look into the link Cosmoline posted up thread a couple issues stand out:

1) One poster researched WW1 records. Eight personnel with the surname "Snoxall" served overseas in WW1, none held the rank of sergeant. It seems unlikely that a veteran NCO would sit out the entire First World War even if he was initially held at the School of Musketry in 1914. (Non-overseas service records for the British military were apparently about 75% obliterated in an Luftwaffe raid in WW2, so further research in that direction is limited.)

2) That link, as was mentioned up thread, has what appears to be the original secondary source reference to Snoxhall, in the form of a book written by the former second in command of the School of Musketry in 1922. Despite digging and looking around, per that thread, no one has found a primary source that attests to Snoxhall's shooting or his existence at all.

So there is a valid mystery here, even if we can reasonably accept that 38 hits in 60 seconds isn't much of an improvement over 37 in 60 seconds which is much better attested to and documented.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The majority of shooters today don't even know how to properly operate a bolt action rifle, so it's not surprising that so many people doubt the story.

With that said, I don't think the SMLE is actually faster to operate than a Mauser or Springfield, it's just that the ten round mag gives you a slight edge even if you only shoot 5 round reloads after the initial load.

 

[DougW]

KodiakBeer, I suppose you can have an opinion. I have fired the 3 rifles you mentioned (I own 14 .303's) and I can shoot nearly any of my Enfields (except the #3mk1, AKA Pattern 14, which is a Mauser action) faster than a Mauser or 1903.

 

[benzy2]

The problem is there is very little information about this person other than a last name, rank, and a school where he supposedly worked. I don't think many/any question the record before his of 37. The problem is, it's commonly quoted with little/no way to verify the claim. I believe people are capable of quickly cycling and reloading such a rifle. If 37 or 38 actually happened in the time stated, as stated, I don't know. I don't really care to be honest. This gets brought up all the time and in the end, it doesn't much matter as the man is only a last name and a rumor/tale at this point.

 

[SeekHer]

Then screw that Internet link, check the official records where the original source of this information came from back in the days of WW1--the regiment's or company's dispatches and roster (paybook)...As to whether it was George or Frank or Sylvester who actually pulled the trigger will be listed there but it would be uncommon posted elsewhere as etiquette didn't allow the use of first names except amongst equals who've know themselves for a long time so it would have been Mr. or Sgt...They wouldn't have dreamed of calling their spouse anything other then Mrs. or Mr. in mixed public, even amongst relatives.

Also, this specific incident and the "mad minute" have been around since my great uncles served in the military prior to WW2...There were still a few of the relatives alive when I was a kid who had served in WW1 (even the Second Boer War) but had died off before I really was old enough to talk to them about their wartime experiences.

 

[SeekHer]

The problem is there is very little information about this person other than a last name, rank, and a school where he supposedly worked. I don't think many/any question the record before his of 37. The problem is, it's commonly quoted with little/no way to verify the claim. I believe people are capable of quickly cycling and reloading such a rifle. If 37 or 38 actually happened in the time stated, as stated, I don't know. I don't really care to be honest. This gets brought up all the time and in the end, it doesn't much matter as the man is only a last name and a rumor/tale at this point.

Do you believe that Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls shot and killed an Indian chief/medicine man from one mile with a .50/90 Sharps buffalo rifle?

There's only hearsay evidence to that.

 

[SaxonPig]

Dixon could have made a lucky shot. One lucky shot. That I have seen done and have done myself. But firing 38 rounds with accuracy at 300 yards in one minute isn't lucky and I still can't believe it can be done. I might see a good bolt man getting off 38 rounds in 60 seconds. But hitting a 12" target 300 yards while doing it? I do not believe the target could be acquired and accurate shots made that rapidly.

 

[M-Cameron]

Dixon could have made a lucky shot. One lucky shot. That I have seen done and have done myself. But firing 38 rounds with accuracy at 300 yards in one minute isn't lucky and I still can't believe it can be done. I might see a good bolt man getting off 38 rounds in 60 seconds. But hitting a 12" target 300 yards while doing it? I do not believe the target could be acquired and accurate shots made that rapidly.

so you have no problem believing that a person can shoot 38 round in 1 min

and you have no problem believing that a person can hit a 12" target at 300yds


but not together....?


have you ever shot prone from a sling with a bolt action...?

when the sling is properly adjusted....the rifle more or less falls back into the same place it was before........

so it really takes very little to get back on target.....as the gun should already be on target( more or less)

as for loading, you dont wait for the gun to stop recoiling to rack the bolt......you start to open the bolt more or less right after you pull the trigger....then you begin to close the bolt as the rifle is settling down....no time is wasted.

so as the bolt closes...you should already be on target thanks to the sling...and then its just a matter of pulling the trigger and repeating.

 

[SaxonPig]

M-C- I did not say this:

"so you have no problem believing that a person can shoot 38 round in 1 min

and you have no problem believing that a person can hit a 12" target at 300yds"

I said I accept the possibility that a good rifleman (not "a perso" implying anyone can do it) might be able to fire 38 RPM, but that hitting a 12" target at 300 yards while doing seems nearly impossible to me.

That's 4" MOA... with a service rifle... at extreme rapid fire. Seems to me a service rifle is usually expected to hold 3-4" MOA in timed fire. Now we're adding a 38 RPM rate of fire?

Like I said before, I would have to see this done. Sorry if this bothers some people, but I would have to see it done exactly as claimed.

 

[SaxonPig]

Jeff56- None of those videos you linked show a man firing 38 rounds, reloading 6 times (start with 10 and load 6 clips holding 5 rounds each to enable 38 rounds to be fired), and hitting a 12" target at 300 yards in 60 seconds. They are irrelevant to this discussion.

When I see a man fire his SMLE 38 times in 60 seconds scoring hits on a 12" target at 300 yards I will accept that it can be done. As of now I doubt it.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Dixon could have made a lucky shot. One lucky shot. That I have seen done and have done myself. But firing 38 rounds with accuracy at 300 yards in one minute isn't lucky and I still can't believe it can be done. I might see a good bolt man getting off 38 rounds in 60 seconds. But hitting a 12" target 300 yards while doing it? I do not believe the target could be acquired and accurate shots made that rapidly.

it was a 36" target.

 

[SaxonPig]

I did a quick search for the name Snoxall and found another forum discussing this event. A retired major in the British Army posted that everyone in the BA was aware of this record but actual documentation was a bit sketchy. Mostly hearsay.

He did point out that the standard 300 yard target was 36" and not 12" as the story has it. I would find the story slightly more plausible with the larger target but even at that it would still be an amazing feat, IMO.

 

[Joe Demko]

Most of the world neither knows nor cares about this story. Heck, most of the world doesn't even know what an SMLE was. The story is possible, but that doesn't mean it happened. The lack of documentation is regretable, but there it is. Until additional information comes to light, the better documented event should be given precedence.

 

[Ro1911]

I've owned alot of smles over the years and I can shoot about 20 rds per min pretty easily and I'm nor a highly trained british regular.

I would say it is possible to shoot 38 rds if you were one and an instructor to boot.

That and the enfield was designed to be a fast firing force multiplier for the Brits who were streched thin around the turn of the century.

 

[SeekHer]

Most of the world neither knows nor cares about this story. Heck, most of the world doesn't even know what an SMLE was. The story is possible, but that doesn't mean it happened. The lack of documentation is regretable, but there it is. Until additional information comes to light, the better documented event should be given precedence.

Good point--so then it's 37 rpm instead of 38.

The disbelievers here can't fathom 30 rpm being accomplished let alone 37/38 since they don't know or understand the rifle or the training that a Commonwealth soldier experienced during the first half of the 20th century.

They also don't realize that Snoxall was the lead instructor of the range--the guy who taught all the other instructors how to shoot so he'd been shooting that rifle thousands of times before the event…So whether he made it “across the water” to fight in France doesn’t mean diddly squat since he probably was of senior age (20 maybe 25 years of service) and would not have been thrown into the trenches (hence no Overseas Service Medal)…He may even have been of 2nd Boer War service.

They can't imagine hitting a 36x36 inch target (not 12” or 24”) with open sights at 300 yards but have no problem accepting that the USMC shoots their M16s to 500 yards on half silhouette targets that are narrower and shorter then 36"x36".

They also don’t understand that all the rounds where inside the FOUR ring (the outermost ring) not in the black (eight ring)—in other words he hit the damn paper…Also, since he fired from the prone position with sling on his arm, his time would be faster then firing from the bench.

Gunboards Forum from Cosmoline:
From Thunderbox:
The School of Musketry at Hythe collated the annual Qualification shoot results for the British Army. In 1914, the record was set by Sergeant (Instructor) Snoxall with a score of 38 hits within the 4 ring and within the minute - beating the previous record of 37 set by Sergeant Major Wallingford. From the book published about the School in 1922 by the School 2 i/c -"Scores of 34 to 35 were 'not uncommon'."

The account of the 38 HITS score being in the 12" bullseye is incorrect, the 4 ring on the standard target at 300 yds was 36". Snoxall was an instructor at the School of Musketry, hence his title of Sergeant (Instructor). The matter was investigated by the Editor of the Precision Shooting magazine (Dave Brennan) in 1996. He required that he personally see the published book to authenticate the claim made by one of his correspondents - he did and he allowed the publication of the claim."

From Kim W: about the alleged 1922 book.
Yes, once again. I acquired the book written by the School of Musketry 2/ic in 1922 from a estate sale. I had submitted an article which mentioned Snoxall to Precision Shooting magazine and the editor, Dave Brennan required verification, so I sent the book to him in 1996. The relevant and I might add, only relevant extract from the book stated quite clearly,

I might add that I retired from the NZ Army as a Major, after 21 years service, have been heavily involved in target and service shooting since 1965 and am currently the Deputy President of the NRA of New Zealand, which may carry some weight as to the provenance of the above.

 

[Cosmoline]

One thing to remember about the records and the existence of Sgt Inst. Snoxall is that many records were lost, and a great many of these pre-war professional soldiers evaporated into the trenches of the Western Front. It seems impossible to us now that nobody could have corroborated (first hand) the event or the man's existence in the years after the war, but only because no war since then has had a comparable impact on professional military ranks--at least not among our allies. The BEF of 1914 was fully half the entire British Army--including the best and most experienced soldiers and NCO's. For these folks, odds of lasting to 1915 were slim let alone 1918. Just reviewing the battles such a soldier would have to last through is daunting.

What we may be seeing here is a reference to a lost world. There's no "I was there" verification because the hard records are gone and the people who actually witnessed it are bones in some Belgian field. It's not unlike some unsourced, third hand reference in Josephus or Tacitus that's the only account of a historical figure. Only in this case it isn't time that created the gaps but a horrific war. That war, from all I've read, fell heaviest on two groups in the UK: The young gentry who went off as junior officers and the highly skilled professional soldiers of NCO ranks. The whole generation of these men was all but annihilated.

 

[goon]

Additionally, other than being recorded somewhere on an official record, what other kind of recognition would this accomplishment have had at the time?
Maybe a few free beers from his closest comrades?
The access we have to information today, the way that things can quickly spread all over the world within hours, spoils us at times. For the vast majority of history human beings have not had this luxury.

And even if the 38 shots per minutes record is wrong or can't be verified, what about the one before it? Thirty-seven shots in a minute is still really cranking on an Enfield!