WuzYoungOnceToo
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Bingo. This incident is a lot of things, but a 1A issue isn't one of them.
Worried about 2A? 1A just went bye bye..
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WuzYoungOnceToo
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And yet you had to ask if ZeSpectres' question mattered? Now THAT is scary.
Given where the video starts, we don't know what their first step was.
cassandrasdaddy
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http://www.ocala.com/article/20070917/NEWS/70917006/1053/BREAKING_NEWS&source=photoclick
GAINESVILLE - U.S. Sen. John Kerry's speech at the University of Florida came to a dramatic close Monday, shortly after a vocal audience member was hauled off by police and shot with a Taser gun.
The audience member was preliminarily identified by UF officials as Andrew Meyer, a UF student in the College of Journalism and Communications.
Toward the conclusion of Kerry's UF forum, Meyer approached an open microphone at the University Auditorium and demanded Kerry answer his questions. The student claimed that University Police Department officers had already threatened to arrest him, and then proceeded to question Kerry about why he didn't contest the 2004 presidential election and why there had been no moves to impeach President Bush.
A minute or so into what became a combative diatribe, Meyer's microphone was turned off and officers began trying to physically remove him from the auditorium. Meyer flailed his arms, yelling as police tried to restrain him.
He was then pushed to the ground by six officers, at which point Meyer yelled, "What have I done? What I have I done? Get away from me. Get off of me! What did I do? ... Help me! Help."
Police threatened to user a Taser on Meyer if he did not "comply," but he continued to resist being handcuffed. He was then Tased, which prompted him to scream and writhe in pain on the floor of the auditorium.
After the incident, Capt. Jeff Holcomb of the UPD said Meyer had been charged with disrupting a public event and placed in the Alachua County Jail. Holcomb said there would be an investigation into whether the officers used force appropriately, adding that employing a Taser gun would only be justified in a case where there was a threat of physical harm to officers.
As Meyer was escorted away, he was followed by several students, including Matthew Howland, 20. Howland, a UF senior who said he didn't know Meyer, said he was "appalled" by the way UPD officers handled the situation. Howland acknowledged that Meyer had acted inappropriately by "rushing" the microphone and forcing a question on Kerry.
"It's a perfect example of when officers take something to a level that is not necessary," he said. "The officers escalated that situation."
Throughout the incident, Kerry urged the audience to "cool down" and acknowledged that Meyer had raised an important question. As officers escorted Meyer from the auditorium into the lobby, Kerry went on to explain that he did not think there was sufficient evidence of voter suppression to justify contesting the 2004 election.
"We just couldn't do it in good conscience because we didn't have that evidence," he said.
GAINESVILLE - U.S. Sen. John Kerry's speech at the University of Florida came to a dramatic close Monday, shortly after a vocal audience member was hauled off by police and shot with a Taser gun.
The audience member was preliminarily identified by UF officials as Andrew Meyer, a UF student in the College of Journalism and Communications.
Toward the conclusion of Kerry's UF forum, Meyer approached an open microphone at the University Auditorium and demanded Kerry answer his questions. The student claimed that University Police Department officers had already threatened to arrest him, and then proceeded to question Kerry about why he didn't contest the 2004 presidential election and why there had been no moves to impeach President Bush.
A minute or so into what became a combative diatribe, Meyer's microphone was turned off and officers began trying to physically remove him from the auditorium. Meyer flailed his arms, yelling as police tried to restrain him.
He was then pushed to the ground by six officers, at which point Meyer yelled, "What have I done? What I have I done? Get away from me. Get off of me! What did I do? ... Help me! Help."
Police threatened to user a Taser on Meyer if he did not "comply," but he continued to resist being handcuffed. He was then Tased, which prompted him to scream and writhe in pain on the floor of the auditorium.
After the incident, Capt. Jeff Holcomb of the UPD said Meyer had been charged with disrupting a public event and placed in the Alachua County Jail. Holcomb said there would be an investigation into whether the officers used force appropriately, adding that employing a Taser gun would only be justified in a case where there was a threat of physical harm to officers.
As Meyer was escorted away, he was followed by several students, including Matthew Howland, 20. Howland, a UF senior who said he didn't know Meyer, said he was "appalled" by the way UPD officers handled the situation. Howland acknowledged that Meyer had acted inappropriately by "rushing" the microphone and forcing a question on Kerry.
"It's a perfect example of when officers take something to a level that is not necessary," he said. "The officers escalated that situation."
Throughout the incident, Kerry urged the audience to "cool down" and acknowledged that Meyer had raised an important question. As officers escorted Meyer from the auditorium into the lobby, Kerry went on to explain that he did not think there was sufficient evidence of voter suppression to justify contesting the 2004 election.
"We just couldn't do it in good conscience because we didn't have that evidence," he said.
Thumper
Member
Heheh...former fratboy here, and I still found that funny.
The kid wanted a confrontation and pressed until he got one. Tasering was probably unnecessary, but I'm sure in his mind, it just adds to the kid's "look at me" moment.
FourTeeFive
Member
If an LEO touches you then you have to do everything they say?
It's a sad day when you ask a silly question and get physically restrained for it.
Obnoxious or not, the guy was asking a question. That was it.
He pulled away when they were trying to restrain him. Who was in the right?
It's a sad day when you ask a silly question and get physically restrained for it.
Obnoxious or not, the guy was asking a question. That was it.
He pulled away when they were trying to restrain him. Who was in the right?
Zen21Tao
Member
As for the venue, IIRC this was an open public forum held in a UF building on campus and you had to obtain tickets, which were free, for the event prior to attending. As with any such event, when you obtain your tickets and attend the event, you implicitly agree to act in an orderly manner during the event.
While I think do think that it was wrong for them to remove him just for asking a spirited question, the officers felt he was acting disorderly and perhaps even violating rules (rushing the open mike to ask the question). Regardless of whether or not this was right, as soon as the officers demanded he comply with them and leave the building, he should have complied. However, he kept pulling away from them thus resisting them. This is why he was tasered. The student should have complied with the officers then raised the issue of why he was removed later on.
----
Also, Mr. Kerry sure didn't do much to help the situation. I find it extremely funny that the same guy that blamed Bush for remaining silent for 7 minutes after first hearing about the 9-11 attacks couldn’t even speak up enough to deescalate this situation at his own public forum.
While I think do think that it was wrong for them to remove him just for asking a spirited question, the officers felt he was acting disorderly and perhaps even violating rules (rushing the open mike to ask the question). Regardless of whether or not this was right, as soon as the officers demanded he comply with them and leave the building, he should have complied. However, he kept pulling away from them thus resisting them. This is why he was tasered. The student should have complied with the officers then raised the issue of why he was removed later on.
----
Also, Mr. Kerry sure didn't do much to help the situation. I find it extremely funny that the same guy that blamed Bush for remaining silent for 7 minutes after first hearing about the 9-11 attacks couldn’t even speak up enough to deescalate this situation at his own public forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Some people brought up the idea that he was "asking for it" and therefore it wasn't an abuse of power.
The fact is, the police are only allow to use a tazer if the person is a physical threat to them or others. In other words, they can not use it to make a person "hush up" or act more civilized. This is the problem with less-than-lethal weapons, people are more willing to use them thinking they are harmless.
Honestly, I don't care if he was calling Kerry a baby killer, doing a keg stand on stage, or running around naked and screaming. As long as he wasn't physically attacking people or making threats, the police were not permitted to use a tazzer.
What makes it worst was he was cuffed ..... and there was 5 officers to subdue one person.
What I think happened was the police wanted to resolve the situation quickly.
The fact is, the police are only allow to use a tazer if the person is a physical threat to them or others. In other words, they can not use it to make a person "hush up" or act more civilized. This is the problem with less-than-lethal weapons, people are more willing to use them thinking they are harmless.
Honestly, I don't care if he was calling Kerry a baby killer, doing a keg stand on stage, or running around naked and screaming. As long as he wasn't physically attacking people or making threats, the police were not permitted to use a tazzer.
What makes it worst was he was cuffed ..... and there was 5 officers to subdue one person.
What I think happened was the police wanted to resolve the situation quickly.
cbsbyte
Member
He had his say. Then proceed to grand stand. When the cops ask him to leave he refused. When his mike was shut off he went on a titrate. Then he clearly resisted being removed from the room. The cop probably overreacted but still that is what you get when you grand stand and piss the cops off who ask you to polity to give up the mike in the first place.
WuzYoungOnceToo
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Apparently you've either missed or completely ignored the facts as they've been presented before you made your comment. He wasn't restrained for asking a question.
El Tejon
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I think Zen has it. He played right into the cops' hands by his silly actions.
He could have asked his question and then left and then raised a brewhaha in the media after being kicked out by Kerry (didn't he serve in Vietnam?).
Don't think the use of the Taser is kosher, but good luck getting the State's Attorney to prosecute or getting anything out of the case civilly.
He could have asked his question and then left and then raised a brewhaha in the media after being kicked out by Kerry (didn't he serve in Vietnam?).
Don't think the use of the Taser is kosher, but good luck getting the State's Attorney to prosecute or getting anything out of the case civilly.
WuzYoungOnceToo
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Bloody peasant!
This guy's tactics were already worn out in 1974, when Monty Python lampooned them in the clip shown above. He went in there to provoke the kind of response that he got, and he got what he went in for.
It's a Catch-22 for the cops. That's the tactic.
I mean, I have no love or respect whatsoever for John Kerry as an individual, or for his politics. But the cops were there to protect the speaker from crazies. You know, people shoot public figures now and again. How much can the cops afford to err on the side of letting the crazies do whatever? And is it EVER good for RKBA when a public figure gets shot?
It's a Catch-22 for the cops. That's the tactic.
I mean, I have no love or respect whatsoever for John Kerry as an individual, or for his politics. But the cops were there to protect the speaker from crazies. You know, people shoot public figures now and again. How much can the cops afford to err on the side of letting the crazies do whatever? And is it EVER good for RKBA when a public figure gets shot?
FieroCDSP
Member
I don't know how few cops it takes to arrest a scrawny guy like that, but I'm pretty sure it's not as many as five. They had him down, three of them actually on him, and they still couldn't get the cuffs on?!!?! I think some people need to go back to basic police training. His violence level was nowhere near what would require a tazer. Resisting, perhaps, but not violent. What if he'd had a heart condition that led to his death by tazer? Is it only excessive force or worth looking at when someone dies?
MASTEROFMALICE
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Let's put retraining people into perspective.
Have you ever tried to thread a bolt into a nut, but it kept cross-threading?
Now that doesn't mean the bolt is kicking your ass, it just means it's a delicate process and you're trying not to damage the bolt.
Now imagine the bolt is flailing around and four other guys are trying to help you thread the bolt into the nut. Do you honestly think the situation will suddenly become easy?
Everybody says the same thing, "OH ME OH MY! FIVE COPS! FIVE! COUNT 'EM! ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE COPS AGAINST ONE POOR LITTLE COLLEGE STUDENT!"
Well, guess what, they're actually trying not to break him. Before everyone badmouths the cops, did you ever consider the alternative? I'll give you a hint.
The alternative involves a stick and a swinging motion.
The kid was clearly a lunatic whose only gripe is that he's not allowed to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.
Have you ever tried to thread a bolt into a nut, but it kept cross-threading?
Now that doesn't mean the bolt is kicking your ass, it just means it's a delicate process and you're trying not to damage the bolt.
Now imagine the bolt is flailing around and four other guys are trying to help you thread the bolt into the nut. Do you honestly think the situation will suddenly become easy?
Everybody says the same thing, "OH ME OH MY! FIVE COPS! FIVE! COUNT 'EM! ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE COPS AGAINST ONE POOR LITTLE COLLEGE STUDENT!"
Well, guess what, they're actually trying not to break him. Before everyone badmouths the cops, did you ever consider the alternative? I'll give you a hint.
The alternative involves a stick and a swinging motion.
The kid was clearly a lunatic whose only gripe is that he's not allowed to do whatever he wants whenever he wants.
Fiero-
The thing is, the more cops you have to subdue someone, the less likely you are to hurt him. You know this intuitively. If you're in a bar alone, and a guy slightly bigger than you throws a punch, you'll have to hurt him to defend yourself, or you will get hurt. If you're there with 5 friends, you can each grab an arm and just call the bouncer over.
The thing is, the more cops you have to subdue someone, the less likely you are to hurt him. You know this intuitively. If you're in a bar alone, and a guy slightly bigger than you throws a punch, you'll have to hurt him to defend yourself, or you will get hurt. If you're there with 5 friends, you can each grab an arm and just call the bouncer over.
WuzYoungOnceToo
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Do you have a cite to support this "fact"?
Not at all scary, Noxx.
"Passive resistance" sometimes means getting 50 people to lie on their backs somewhere to prevent other people from going about their lawful and peaceful business. That's merely a form of violence, but done in a way designed to thwart law enforcement's ability to protect the rights of citizens who are not protesters. The policies simply allow UCLA cops to fight back against this deliberate tactic.
"Passive" does not by any means mean that the rights of others are not being taken away illegally and forcefully by the "protesters". It's just a different kind of force from, say, beating me with sticks.
If I have the right to pass through a public thoroughfare and people are lying down across it, they're taking MY rights away by force. The cops can and should clear my path. That's what I pay taxes for, plain and simple.
Freedom of speech does NOT mean the freedom to prevent others from exercising their basic rights, like walking down the street.
Say 100 members of the Klan were to form a "passive" human shield, preventing non-white students from going to high school on opening day. Should the cops just sit back and say, "Well, it's just passive resistance. Nothing we can do."?!?
"Passive resistance" sometimes means getting 50 people to lie on their backs somewhere to prevent other people from going about their lawful and peaceful business. That's merely a form of violence, but done in a way designed to thwart law enforcement's ability to protect the rights of citizens who are not protesters. The policies simply allow UCLA cops to fight back against this deliberate tactic.
"Passive" does not by any means mean that the rights of others are not being taken away illegally and forcefully by the "protesters". It's just a different kind of force from, say, beating me with sticks.
If I have the right to pass through a public thoroughfare and people are lying down across it, they're taking MY rights away by force. The cops can and should clear my path. That's what I pay taxes for, plain and simple.
Freedom of speech does NOT mean the freedom to prevent others from exercising their basic rights, like walking down the street.
Say 100 members of the Klan were to form a "passive" human shield, preventing non-white students from going to high school on opening day. Should the cops just sit back and say, "Well, it's just passive resistance. Nothing we can do."?!?
Im283
Member
Being in the right or being wrong does not matter when the cops come up to you and ask you to leave. Once they touch you to get your compliance you are screwed. This a lesson for everyone here.
Do what they say and if so inclined sue somebody afterwards. Cops are not going to back down and more than likely he would not have been arrested for anything, simply ejected Now they surely will have a laundry list of charges against the student.
Don't let the man push your buttons to cause charges that will stick.
Of course not, they should drag em off by the heels as they've done plenty of times before. If the person is engaging in "passive resistance", you can just cart them off. That's part of the whole "passive resistance" ploy. I don't think it justifies tasing or pepper spraying someone to gain compliance.
Two cops can "carry off" 100 people? I don't think so.
Tasers are not the first tactic to use, of course, but there's a time and place for them, and policies need to reflect that. Protesters READ those policies, and use the details to devise tactics.
And I don't want my tax money to be used to provide an army of cops for every campus, big enough to drag off every large group of idiots that decides to lie down in the middle of campus. Tasers are cheaper, if it comes to that.
Again, "passive resistance" has nothing to do with "speech."
Tasers are not the first tactic to use, of course, but there's a time and place for them, and policies need to reflect that. Protesters READ those policies, and use the details to devise tactics.
And I don't want my tax money to be used to provide an army of cops for every campus, big enough to drag off every large group of idiots that decides to lie down in the middle of campus. Tasers are cheaper, if it comes to that.
Again, "passive resistance" has nothing to do with "speech."
AntiqueCollector
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No when the police are in the wrong I won't roll over.
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