Thumper
Member
Really, DDrake? Source?
Worried about 2A? 1A just went bye bye..
- Thread starter Torchman
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Really, DDrake? Source?
WuzYoungOnceToo
member
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In that situation there are two ways to make your point:
1) Take legal action after the fact. If you have a case then this can be effective not only in redressing that specific wrong, but also has the potential of preventing future transgressions.
2) Attempt to physically resist on the spot and get yourself roughed up, injured and quite possibly killed. This also has the potential for effecting long-term change in police policies, but the obvious disadvantages would seem to outweigh that particular benefit.
#1 seems like the more intelligent and rational approach. But, to each their own.
ZeSpectre
Member
Let's call it "police interaction 101"
Right or wrong you will never win a face to face encounter with the cops. I've been on both sides of a "police interaction" and regardless of your like or dislike of my statement it is accurate. On the scene the cops generally only care about ONE thing and that is getting control of the situation (usually to minimize injuries and other unpleasantness).
Do you want to show up later in a hearing or such...
A) Calm, cool, with facts in hand to address the misdeed (see tons of VCDL stuff)
or
B) Have your hearing date delayed by your extended hospital stay because you made a poor choice of battleground?
The wise know how to pick their battles and where to have them.
Right or wrong you will never win a face to face encounter with the cops. I've been on both sides of a "police interaction" and regardless of your like or dislike of my statement it is accurate. On the scene the cops generally only care about ONE thing and that is getting control of the situation (usually to minimize injuries and other unpleasantness).
Do you want to show up later in a hearing or such...
A) Calm, cool, with facts in hand to address the misdeed (see tons of VCDL stuff)
or
B) Have your hearing date delayed by your extended hospital stay because you made a poor choice of battleground?
The wise know how to pick their battles and where to have them.
hrgrisso
Member
Taser'd or Stun Gun'd?
I can't watch the video (stupid :banghead:technology!). But was he tazered as in two metal barbs shot into him dropping him to the floor etc. or was he just popped a bit by the short handled cattle prod we used to zap each other with as kids?
As to this incident, I'm still waiting to decide. If this had been an outdoor public arena I'd be more inclined to go with the "freedom of speech violation." But because it was a building with doors obviously owned by someone and the audience can be regulated etc. This makes it a bit removed.
I don't care for the TAZER solution to every LE problem.
I can't argue against the idea that they probably talked to him first.
But I do still have a problem with sticking the electricity to any joe shlub just because he's not cooperating. Again because this instance was not quite a public public forum I understand they can ask him to leave. But it does appear that with a few differences (that we've seen in other cases around the country) a person could be "oppressed."
Of course I'm also all for giving cops reign with Billy Clubs because then they damn well better have a reason for using them!
I can't watch the video (stupid :banghead:technology!). But was he tazered as in two metal barbs shot into him dropping him to the floor etc. or was he just popped a bit by the short handled cattle prod we used to zap each other with as kids?
As to this incident, I'm still waiting to decide. If this had been an outdoor public arena I'd be more inclined to go with the "freedom of speech violation." But because it was a building with doors obviously owned by someone and the audience can be regulated etc. This makes it a bit removed.
I don't care for the TAZER solution to every LE problem.
I can't argue against the idea that they probably talked to him first.
But I do still have a problem with sticking the electricity to any joe shlub just because he's not cooperating. Again because this instance was not quite a public public forum I understand they can ask him to leave. But it does appear that with a few differences (that we've seen in other cases around the country) a person could be "oppressed."
Of course I'm also all for giving cops reign with Billy Clubs because then they damn well better have a reason for using them!
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Cattle prods & passive resistance.
While I accept ArmedBear's point that passive resistance can be an illegitimate use of force cloaked in a figleaf, I would also remind folks that you have no duty or obligation to facilitate your own arrest.
Normally, cops don't like dragging around 200 +/- lbs of limp human, and generally make it quite uncomfortable to go that route, but that is different from cattle prodding people into compliance.
No responsible police procedure should call for the use of chemical, electrically or stick induced pain to obtain the compliance of a limp or restrained subject.
While I accept ArmedBear's point that passive resistance can be an illegitimate use of force cloaked in a figleaf, I would also remind folks that you have no duty or obligation to facilitate your own arrest.
Normally, cops don't like dragging around 200 +/- lbs of limp human, and generally make it quite uncomfortable to go that route, but that is different from cattle prodding people into compliance.
No responsible police procedure should call for the use of chemical, electrically or stick induced pain to obtain the compliance of a limp or restrained subject.
atk
Member
Quick point (I haven't read the full thread so I don't know if this was already made). Tazers are not "non-leathal" or "less than lethal". They are "less lethal". As we all know, words mean things, and using the wrong ones can cause problems.
There's a difference between "murder" and "self defense". There's a difference between "shoot to kill" and "shoot to stop". And there's a difference between "less than lethal" and "less lethal".
There's a difference between "murder" and "self defense". There's a difference between "shoot to kill" and "shoot to stop". And there's a difference between "less than lethal" and "less lethal".
So geek, what do you do when the Klan uses "passive resistance" to keep non-whites from attending high school?
Are there no limits to "no responsible police procedure"?
BTW I think that the Rodney King situation led to this. When the cops get too physical with someone, they're concerned about liability. One wrong move here or there by any party, and you get Rodney King. I don't think any chief wants to go there again. So here's your unintended consequence, I guess.
Are there no limits to "no responsible police procedure"?
BTW I think that the Rodney King situation led to this. When the cops get too physical with someone, they're concerned about liability. One wrong move here or there by any party, and you get Rodney King. I don't think any chief wants to go there again. So here's your unintended consequence, I guess.
SoCalShooter
Member
He was grandstanding as asking questions out of turn he had 1 question and tried to ask more. Then he acted like a brat when he was asked to give up the mic. You have the freedom of speech you do not have the freedom to be heard. Noone has to listen.
And back to my point...for a passive resistor...Joint manipulation and pressure points work wonders. Hit me in my mandibular angle...I'll walk with you like a pedigree dog! And if I get froggy? A common peronial stun ends it with no 5 cop dogpile. And yes..I DO speak from experience. But the best cops solve it at level 2, control it at level 3. If it goes to level 4...it SHOULD NOT look like the videos I have seen lately showing Keystone Cop takedowns. It embarrases me. My 2 centavos.
ZeSpectre
Member
Regardless of our other disagreements, I will agree on one thing (as I said before) that takedown WAS an embarassment and if I were their CO there would be rather a lot of REDMAN suit practice going on!
trueblue1776
Member
I can do it gentle with ten hands, if I do it with two he'll know it the next day (or week). Sometimes nobody is wrong, it's just how it worked out that time.
WuzYoungOnceToo
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I would think that, as a "18 year FED LEO" you'd be more embarrassed by the following...
ZeSpectre:
You:
Ze....a PROPER transport wristlock by ONE OFFICER was all that was needed. I wont argue that at all! I'm a Coastie, dealt with more Greenpeacers than you can shake a stick at..
The best cop on the film was the female that TALKED to him...notice how quickly he DE-ESCALATED? Read back to my LEAPS post. I've been in on the dogpile action also, always as a result of piss poor performance on the LEO side. Ya cant train common sense.
The best cop on the film was the female that TALKED to him...notice how quickly he DE-ESCALATED? Read back to my LEAPS post. I've been in on the dogpile action also, always as a result of piss poor performance on the LEO side. Ya cant train common sense.Wuz.. I saw the first vid..before the rest of the story. WHAT I meant was, at a public meeting addressing an elected official, the POLICE should NOT be a factor. Now if the CROWD boos you down...it might be a clue moment! The moment a man in uniform stops you from talking in an open forum...alarms should go off...or at least we need a gut check.
WuzYoungOnceToo
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That doesn't alter the fact that ZeSpectre's questions were pertinent, and should not have been dismissed as irrelevant by a LEO.
Why not?
What does that have to do with your rights, or the appropriateness of a given LEO response?
I think you're still terribly fuzzy on the facts of the incident.
Agreed. The guy had definitely overstepped his bounds. If he had just shut up and stepped away from the mic, this whole thing would not have happened. Kerry seemed to want him to stay and hear his answer, but the kid didn't seem all too interested in answers, just in getting his own fifteen minutes.
While the cops could have handled the extraction better, you've got to remember that these are campus cops; they're probably better trained in golf-cart driving that human relations.
While the cops could have handled the extraction better, you've got to remember that these are campus cops; they're probably better trained in golf-cart driving that human relations.
The real secret is whether or not George H.W. Bush's dad, Prescott Bush, really dug up Pancho Villa and took his skull back to the Skull and Bones society.
The skull may be there or it may be buried deep in the sub basement of Misquetonic University
The skull may be there or it may be buried deep in the sub basement of Misquetonic University
WuzYoungOnceToo
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Ah, here we go. Faced with the silliness of your position and your own inability/unwillingness to honestly answer the simple questions put to you, you resort to adolescent quips.
"with no direction"? Care to translate that into something meaningful?
Funny...all of your comments seem based on the conclusion that you definitely know what was right/wrong about this situation.
No, it's called "debate". You might want to have someone explain that one to you.
I watched the youtube video. Instead of asking John Kerry a simple question, he went on some kind of rant before asking it. Then the cops stepped in.
From what I saw, a female officer went to grab him at first. She clearly could not control him as the kid was like 18 inches taller than she was. Two male cops had to walk over from the middle/back of the room and intervene at this point. The two males had no problems with moving him to the back. Once in the back, the kid tried to break away by jolting to the right. The officers at that point had to put him down hard.
Zapping him was a bit extreme. He will get some sort of summons, it will be dismissed, and he has some free publicity... end of story.
From what I saw, a female officer went to grab him at first. She clearly could not control him as the kid was like 18 inches taller than she was. Two male cops had to walk over from the middle/back of the room and intervene at this point. The two males had no problems with moving him to the back. Once in the back, the kid tried to break away by jolting to the right. The officers at that point had to put him down hard.
Zapping him was a bit extreme. He will get some sort of summons, it will be dismissed, and he has some free publicity... end of story.
"The best cop on the film was the female that TALKED to him...notice how quickly he DE-ESCALATED?"
Umm, watch the video again. The female officer was actually the first one to lay hands ont he kid. After she could not control him (he was 2x bigger than her), two male cops had to step in.
Umm, watch the video again. The female officer was actually the first one to lay hands ont he kid. After she could not control him (he was 2x bigger than her), two male cops had to step in.
Whatever you think of Michelle Malkin, she has a LOT of background info here, including information sent by UF students about the situation and the individual. Interesting stuff, if you really want to know what happened and why.
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/09/17/student-tasered-at-john-kerry-forum/
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/09/17/student-tasered-at-john-kerry-forum/
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