Worried about 2A? 1A just went bye bye..

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Wheelgunslinger-

If I gave trophies for perfectly summing it up, you sir would get it:

The kid had his first collision with the real world.
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Boo-ya! As a student, I wish these collisions were more regular.
 
He was acting stupid, disturbing the peace, resisting the lawful orders of a police officer, and so on, and the end result was predictable.

That said, five or six cops should be able to handcuff a college student without using a taser. I thought tasers were only appropriate in situations in which deadly force would otherwise be used.

I'm afraid we're headed for a situation where they are used to torture people doing things cops don't like. Actually they are already used for that sometimes; there was a case not long where a guy strapped down and restrained in a hospital bed was tasered by a cop because the guy wouldn't let the staff give him his medication.
 
It was the 'BJ' comment that did it. You could clearly see the guy make the universal 'cut' sign right after that and the cops went into action well before the skull and bones business. If you 'disrupt' a public event and the person(s) responsible for the event wants you gone and you refuse to leave, I think they are justified in doing what they did. If you want to hear yourself talk you can go and have your own meeting. He was OK til the BJ comment IMO.
PB
 
So before we all boo-hoo about how the poor little criminal was treated, let's all be reminded that he was a criminal.
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Statements like this on a shooting forum are funny.


"When guns are outlawed...everyone on THR will be 'criminals,' unless they find a new hobby."

Maybe you won't complain when they are tazing your wife to quiet her down as they cuff you and empty your gun safe, since she'll be the "poor little criminal" then. 51% and all. Or maybe you'll be the one tazing my wife.... Just doing your job and all.
 
Placing officers on administrative leave after a use of force incident is normal in many departments. Try not to read into it. It gives them time to finish the paperwork :rolleyes:
 
I am disturbed by how some people think this kid "got what he was asking for". Yes, he was obnoxious and might have wanted to get arrested. But the fact remains, police are obligated to conduct themselves in a certain way ..... which includes not using excessive force.



Some aspects of this situation are clear. This kid did not have a weapon, he was on the ground with one hand in a police lock, and five police officers found it necessary to use a taser against a non-violent individual.



So this gives us two choices
1) This is the most incompetent group of officers in the nation. If it takes five officers and a taser to take down a non-violent college kid (who is already pinned on the ground) then I hate to see these police take on real violent offenders. It does not matter if the kid "was asking for it" or he was warned. The police have an obligation to use the least amount of force .... and if physical strength of five officers can not overcome 1 teenager, then they need to be fired.

2) They acted without thinking. The sad thing is, many people think such weapons are harmless and a great alternative if you don't want to break a sweat handcuffing someone. The police were probably more concern about the time .... which shouldn't be their concern. Their concern should be arresting the individual with the least amount of force..... not in the quickest amount of time.


And as John Kerry said himself, this could have "probably" been handle better without force.
 
Guess the police really didn't take THE HIGH ROAD, now did they?

As I have said, I'll lay odds of a "virtual cigar", an anticipated settlement is already in the works.
 
One observation that I am making, that also applies to 2A/RKBA (maybe help keep this discussion relevant to a guns forum) is this: All of these 'rights' we have enjoyed the last 200 some years didn't just spring up out of the ground spontaneously. If you look at the history of the world, the vast majority of it is filled with oppression and misery, wars etc. The thing that set America apart, as many of the founding fathers, DeTocqueville and others have observed is that we are/(were) a relatively decent / civil / polite society in the first place. People had respect for one another's property and dignity; you didn't yell out a stream of expletives at a public gathering or shout down a public speaker. You didn't go waving guns all over the place threatening to pop a cap in whomever disrespected you etc etc. A large portion of the regulation is/was self-regulation. If we lose that, I am fearful the BOR will become as worthless as the paper its written on, and nothing will save us. Point is, if we won't govern ourselves, we will be governed by tyrants, but make no mistake... we will be governed. People may tolerate this kind of behavior, and say he has a right, and he does have a right; but as long as we do, its just going to get worse.
 
Very poignant post, pbonebright.

It seems that a lot of this young boy's problems could have been solved simply by knowing how to be a gentleman.

A large portion of the regulation is/was self-regulation. If we lose that, I am fearful the BOR will become as worthless as the paper its written on, and nothing will save us. Point is, if we won't govern ourselves, we will be governed by tyrants, but make no mistake... we will be governed. People may tolerate this kind of behavior, and say he has a right, and he does have a right; but as long as we do, its just going to get worse.
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We spend so much time arguing over what is on paper that we forget that the BOR was a burning ideal in the hearts of our founding fathers and mothers.
Conducting ourselves with a gentlemanly decorum in the face of ignominy would never detract from the 2A cause. Instead, we've recently chosen to shout back at our detractors.
Or shout them down at events like this one.
Taking the high road makes the term "gun nut" ill-fitting at best.
 
I bet John Kerry gets asked about Skull & Bones by conspiracy nuts all of the time and probably could have answered the guy on his own. Public speakers get heckled, protested, and asked stupid questions all of the time and the speakers manage to either handle it or have the person removed with minimal force.

Obviously this kid wasn't very smart for running away from the cops and screaming and acting like a nut but there was probably a more civil way to handle the situation.
 
Nice try - but that dog won't hunt.

My response in post #101 was:
Quote:
Because the kid challenged the authority of the cops.

I haven't lost track of anything. The issue is that the cops kept on going - even after Kerry said he'd respond to the question.
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Exactly. You're commenting based on the erroneous notion that Kerry was in charge of the event. The fact is that whether or not he was willing to respond to the question is completely and utterly irrelevant. Why you can't understand that is a mystery.

My contention is that they kept on going because their authority had been challenged. You - on the other hand - are just trying to ignore, misdirect and sidestep the issue...
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Are you illiterate, or just being intentionally dishonest? I've not ignored, misdirected nor side-stepped anything. I've clearly addressed every aspect of the issue.

with some not so clever turns of phrase.
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That means a lot coming from someone who starts out with the hackneyed expression, "That dog won't hunt."

The cops were challenged - it really is that simple. Once Mr. Kerry said it was OK - that he'd answer the question - the whole incident would have gone away if the cops had just stopped what they were doing.
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Their job at that point was to remove him from the event. Why do you think that Kerry had the authority to change that?

The young man would have heard the answer and the situation would have been defused.
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Only someone who's paid no attention at all to the facts of the situation would make such a claim.

Why didn't the cops just stop?
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Why should they have?
 
I think it has been said on thr that many PD's look at tasers as non-lethal and often to be used before physical force is used. They don't see them as dangerous, just as a way to disable a belligerent person without beating the snot out of them. I don't think they see it as just short of a firearm.

I was very surprised at some TV/radio people who obviously reacted to this like it was some really bad and unique event. As veteran readers of this forum and others know, these tactics are used by Police on a regular basis in a number of incidents that we have seen articles for.


Opinion: It was obvious to me on hearing the guys fake wailing and cries not to be tased, that he was play acting for the cameras and trying to spark an incident. At that point, I almost wish they would have taken him outside and beat the snot out of him. If you really want to embarrass a political candidate, fine, do it. Don't drag the police officer into it also.
 
What's the cops did wasn't that bad.

You know how I look at it? My mother would have beaten me far worse if she caught me acting like that kid...........and I'm 31.
 
Their job at that point was to remove him from the event. Why do you think that Kerry had the authority to change that?
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Because there is a thing called situational authority and Mr. Kerry had it.

Kerry was the whole reason for the event. No Kerry, no event. Kerry assumed situational authority when he said "it's OKAY, I'll answer the question". At that point the reason for detaining/removing the young man disappeared - regardless of what the organizers wanted.

The only reason the young man continued to be acosted was because the authority of the cops had been challenged. At that point it didn't matter anymore to them what happened anywhere else. Defusing the situation was out of the question. They had been challenged. All that mattered was putting down this guy who had the unmitigated gall to challenge them.

Pretty simple really. If they'd dropped out of control mode and back into keeping the peace mode like they should the incident would have been concluded. The young man's question would have been answered and all would have been well. Instead we've got a national debate going on in the media about whether or not the cops over reacted. The only folks losing face here are the cops. The young man will probably walk away with some money he didn't have before and the university police (UPD - rent a cops mostly) will still have egg on their faces. All because they just have to be in control and cannot have their authority challenged - ever.
 
He was acting stupid, disturbing the peace, resisting the lawful orders of a police officer, and so on, and the end result was predictable.

That said, five or six cops should be able to handcuff a college student without using a taser. I thought tasers were only appropriate in situations in which deadly force would otherwise be used.

I'm afraid we're headed for a situation where they are used to torture people doing things cops don't like. Actually they are already used for that sometimes; there was a case not long where a guy strapped down and restrained in a hospital bed was tasered by a cop because the guy wouldn't let the staff give him his medication.
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+1

The taser is a good tool. If it appears to become abused it will be taken away from LEO.
 
Oh really?

Pretty simple really. If they'd dropped out of control mode and back into keeping the peace mode like they should the incident would have been concluded. The young man's question would have been answered and all would have been well.
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I see. So this kid who was screaming and shouting at Kerry, then fighting with the cops, then screaming outside about how a giant government coverup was going to erase him from existence; this kid was just going to miraculously calm down and everything would have been fine, huh?

Tell me then, if this idiot was so rational and easily dissuaded, how come the previous attempts to calm him down didn't work? How come answering his previous questions didn't work?

You know something Werewolf, it just occurred to me that I've met you. You've had different faces and different names but it's you for sure. You're the guy who complains about how the cops don't do anything about people speeding in his neighborhood, then gets busted for speeding. You're the lady who gripes about how crime keeps going up in her neighborhood, then screams at the cops when her kid is busted with heroin. You're that kid who makes oinking sounds around his friends and badmouths the cops every chance he gets, and then ends up drunk with his car wrapped around a tree.

You complain about how no one fixes the situation, then complain again when someone tries.

I know you Werewolf. I've met you a thousand times.
 
Because there is a thing called situational authority and Mr. Kerry had it.
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No he didn't. At all times the sponsors and organizers of the event had the authority.

Kerry was the whole reason for the event. No Kerry, no event. Kerry assumed situational authority when he said "it's OKAY, I'll answer the question".
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One does not receive authority just because they decide to "assume" it.

At that point the reason for detaining/removing the young man disappeared - regardless of what the organizers wanted.

The only reason the young man continued to be acosted was because the authority of the cops had been challenged.
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LOL! One can only conclude that you didn't actually watch the whole video, or that you're so out in left field yourself that you interpreted his lunatic rantings as the sign of an individual engaged in rational behavior.
 
And if the kid had rushed the stage and popped Kerry in the head,everyone would've said where where the cops?It was a no win for the cops.....plus am I the only one who finds tazing funny on some sick level?........maybe.....:uhoh:
I say taze all hippies;)
 
I'm going to try that.

Next time someone throws me a party I'm going to walk in and take over their house.

"By proclimation of Werewolf, I hearby claim SITUATIONAL AUTHORITY!"
 
Next time someone throws me a party I'm going to walk in and take over their house.

"By proclimation of Werewolf, I hearby claim SITUATIONAL AUTHORITY!"
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Forget that. I'm taking control of this forum, as of now by claiming situational authority. You're all banned.
 
Forget that. I'm taking control of this forum, as of now by claiming situational authority. You're all banned.
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But that suggests that the forum was here only because of you. Per Werewolf, "No WuzYoungOnceToo, no TheHighRoad."
 
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