Worried about 2A? 1A just went bye bye..

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Why did the police not stop when Kerry said,

"It's okay..."?!
Because the kid challenged the authority of the cops. :what:

In this day and age that's a major no-no. Cops are all about authority and being in control. You'd have a better chance of coming out whole and healthy stepping on an angry rattlesnake than you would telling a cop no.

The cops used to be Peace Officers. Not anymore - they're LAW ENFORCEMENT officers. Big - BIG difference.
 
But using such force to stop obnoxious behavior seem to violate the police's own policy about using such a weapon.
He was 'out of control" all that I saw used was what was needed to regain "control"
Simple really, a job needed doing and was done.

It reminded me of a child's temper tantrums I see occasionally in public, when they don't get their way. Some "control" would be a good thing then also.
 
Uh, no. Because Kerry didn't have any authority to decide whether or not it was "OK". That's already been pointed out multiple times.
It wouldn't have mattered if GOD hisself had said it was OK.

Once you challenge the authority of the cops they single mindedly act in a manner that assures both themselves and everyone present that they are in charge and indeed the baddest dudes on the block.

They have an almost psychopathic need to be in control. They hate it when anyone challenges their authority.

It's who they are - it's what they do.
 
What is illegal for an agent of the state to do to a human, what is inappropriate for an agent of the state to do to a human, and what is wrong for an agent of the state to do to a human -- whether the human in question is an enemy soldier, a POW, a deserter, a "captured" civilian from a different state, a murderer, a rapist, a follower of a different religion, a supporter of a different regime, of a different genetic heritage, of a different opinion, in the wrong place at the wrong time, or just a silly kid -- are not usually the same, historically speaking.

I have done similarly stupid things in the past. I am someone's son, someone's brother, someone's husband, and someone's father. If he were your's, you might feel different, no matter how much of an idiot he's always been.

He should have seen it coming. That doesn't make it right that he got it.
 
There's a "free speech zone" on most college campuses. And, he wasn't standing in it.
Freedom of speech is now regulated geographically on campuses. Has been for some time.
And, it's regulated for situations like this.

You get loud doing anything besides cheering the football team or raising money for the next building, and we shut you up.

meh. if enough white collar privileged larvae get this treatment, something positive may happen to our freedom of speech.

*btw: I'm not arguing against the use of force. The kid had his first collision with the real world. At Uni no less. And, in the real world, if an officer wants to arrest you for any reason, no matter how unlawful or lawful, he/she gets to and you can go quietly or you can go anyway.
In this case, he knew he was being detained/arrested and kept squawking and squirming. Hence the warning and then the followup tazer use.
 
The kid cut in line and overstayed his welcome. He broke the rules of the event at which point he was told to leave. He didn't, so he was escorted out, at which time he began actively resisting the officers. They started off using soft empty hand control techniques, and when he still resisted in the face of several officers, they escalated their response to intermediate weapons when their control techniques didn't work and the kid continued to resist. The officers followed the force continuum.

Even though the kid incited the whole ordeal, he was subdued without significant injury. What's the issue?
 
WuzYoungOnceToo, are you saying that resistance of being escorted out is a form of violence? When I think of violence, I think of some physical attack. Perhaps the definition of violence in C1 is defined differently in law, but the individual wasn't even attacking the officer. It looked like some half-hearted attempt to get his voice out.

Also, C2 is written in a way that directs officers to use such force only when other conventional arresting techniques have been exhausted. The guy was still on the ground in a police lock (arm behind, being pushed up)...... I don't think it's reasonable to think he was going anywhere.

It seems to be the police wanted to get him out "quickly and quietly" so the event could continue. The problem is, that is no reason to use excessive force and the statue does not seem to protect that.






And this is not police bashing. This is a recurring theme of security/police using less lethal weapons because they think they are harmless. It is irresponsible, and wrongful in most places, to use such a weapon without some level of restraint.
 
Can you say LEO ABUSE?.

The LEO's were overreactive and will certianly see the money they would have had for more equipment/education go to pay restitution to the guy. If he's student I'd be the gets kicked out.

This is the world we are living in. LEO who controll the masses with force. And again another bunch of overzelous Campus Cops. Tehy're the ones who need to be educated.

Had they let him finish his question and get an answer the whole situation could have been avoided.

And finally,

SHAME on Kerry. He should have immediately come to the defense of the Student. Good thing he didn't become president.
 
WuzYoungOnceToo said:
Ah, the old "the facts don't matter, because I don't like cops" argument. Very compelling.
Ahhhh...
The ole "bury your head in the sand, ignore reality and maybe it wont' be true", argument. Very compelling.

Cops are taught from the beginning to take control of any situation. It's a necessary part of their job. Problem is it becomes habit and ingrained in their psyche. Don't believe me? - try telling one NO! Be sure to let us know how that works out for ya.
 
Ahhhh...
The ole "bury your head in the sand, ignore reality and maybe it wont' be true", argument. Very compelling.
A baseless claim, without regard for the facts, does not reality make.

Cops are taught from the beginning to take control of any situation. It's a necessary part of their job. Problem is it becomes habit and ingrained in their psyche. Don't believe me? - try telling one NO! Be sure to let us know how that works out for ya.
You seem to have completely lost sight of what it was you responded to in the first place, which was:

"Why did the cops not stop when Kerry said 'It's OK...'?"
 
WuzYoungOnceToo, are you saying that resistance of being escorted out is a form of violence?
Only if we're speaking English. One definition of violence, according to Merriam Webster:

"intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force"

(Not the "often" qualifier...so save yourself the embarrassment of shooting back with the "but he wasn't being destructive" response.)


When I think of violence, I think of some physical attack.
Your own personal, narrow interpretation of words doesn't really matter when it comes to matters of law.

Perhaps the definition of violence in C1 is defined differently in law, but the individual wasn't even attacking the officer. It looked like some half-hearted attempt to get his voice out.
It was a strenuously physical attempt to prevent the cops from putting handcuffs on him. Did you really watch the video?

Also, C2 is written in a way that directs officers to use such force only when other conventional arresting techniques have been exhausted. The guy was still on the ground in a police lock (arm behind, being pushed up)...... I don't think it's reasonable to think he was going anywhere.
They tried multiple times, unsuccessfully, to put handcuffs on him. They warned him that if he did not stop resisting that he would be tasered so that they could cuff him. He continued to resist. Should they have begged him next?

It seems to be the police wanted to get him out "quickly and quietly"
I'd say that the "quietly" ship had sailed long before they even laid a hand on him.

so the event could continue. The problem is, that is no reason to use excessive force and the statue does not seem to protect that.
I'm not certain what positive protection you're looking for, but it certainly doesn't prohibit what they did.
 
Too bad the cops didn't yank the guy's vocal cords out, too.

It would have surely saved thousands or millions of people from headaches.

You can tell that kid's the kind of person who just loves to hear his own voice.

Cripes, he bellowed and bawled like a bear cub beaten with a canoe paddle!
 
whats complicated? junior was told q time was over stormed the mic for his rant they asked him nicely then cut off mic then geabbed him hes no different than the guy who got in charles barkleys face got slammed and whimpered. amd this guys has a history of being a gratuitous pin head. hes lucky it was on campus and hes lucky they have tasers when i was his age it woulda been a trip to er for stitches
 
Did anyone happen to click on the second linked video from the first video? It shows the entire incident, not just him getting dragged away.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TIYTJ75U4NU

You can clearly hear Kerry say it's ok and that he will answer the question multiple times. If you watch closely you can also see some guy standing behind the cops make a finger across the throat signal right before the cops drag him from the mike. In fact, at 46 seconds Kerry actually invites him to come up to the stage!

The tazing was excessive, 5 officers should be able to arrest one person without pulling out the toys.
 
My intended point is being lost in an over-charged emotional environment.

I'll state it explicit. I project that the attorneys for the institution are going to receive a lawsuit…right doesn’t matter. Having set in on 23 years of educational lawyers' meetings with Boards of Education, I have seen and heard the arguments. Who is right does not matter...this is a financial decision. They will argue, “Settle for $30,000.00 with a clause of not-admitting any guilt. The settlement will cost less than depositions, court filings, etc. Just make it go away.”

There are savvy attorneys who are aware of this educational mentality, and I suspect someone is going to use that argument, and several other quotes available to file and bring them to an out-of-court settlement. Was the kid right to do as he did? Of course not, but this isn't about right. It's about foolishness. I lay odds of one virtual cigar to anyone who wants to take me up on it there will be a legal contest here...not because it's right, but because it can be. Anyone can be sued...it takes about a $35.00 filing fee, some signed papers and you're a defendant.

Check the news…threading the back-waters has already begun. The police have suspended two officers already; the “institution” is speaking very uncommittal. Trust me, they have already spoken with the lawyers, and they are talking make “it go away”. This punk is going to line his wallet with spending money for the next three years. If they had just let it ride for 10 more seconds, we would not be having this conversation.

This is not about right and wrong. This is about grand-standing, and now, due to the reaction, some savvy lawyer will parley it into pocket money for the kid. In closing, let me leave you with this thought...sometimes it is best to let a fool make a fool of himself. If you intervene, you risk making him a martyr.
 
"There are people who know I'm here, so you can't kill me..."

How unfortunate.

If I were one of those cops, I would have had an awful hard time not beating the cr@p out of that loudmouthed, obnoxious, belligerent crybaby.
 
Police action not unreasonable to me.

Some points
1. The guy in front of him was suppose to be the last to ask a question. He wasn't happy about it, so Kerry let him ask a question.
2. Instead of asking one question (like every other guy), he asks multiple questions. Looks to be making a scene instead of wanting a legitimate answer.
3. The group organizers that invited Kerry asked the cops to remove him.
4. He refused to leave the place, so police physically try and evict him.
5. He struggles and refuses to leave, so police decide to arrest him, charging him with disturbing the peace.
6. He's forced onto the floor, but continues to struggle. Police unable to put the cuffs on him. THAT'S A TASERING. Or do we desire the old method of punching him repeatedly until he stops struggling. Having multiple cops sitting on you and trying to twist your arms around to cuff you while you resist, can be much more damaging than a taser. Of course, tasers have caused deaths before.

I'm usually siding against the cops, but the video shows a really irrational, agitated man who was intent on resisting arrest and creating a scene.
 
Hey Werewolf

What's with this "In this day and age" garbage? Are you trying to tell me that my father's stories of NYC cops beatiing the hell out of people is pure fabrication?

Now let me tell you something. I'm a cop and I can tell you straight up that cops today are soft on idiots like that kid. Had this been fourty years ago he'd have been knocked out and thrown in a dumpster.

Cops are soft on criminals and do you know what the end result is? Have you noticed a trend that occurred when cops became "kinder and gentler"? I'll tell you, crime went up.

Disorderly conduct and trespassing are both class 1 misdemeanors in VA. Kick in resisting arrest, that's another class 1 misdemeanor. If he hit or pushed any of those cops in any way, now you've got a class 6 felony.

So before we all boo-hoo about how the poor little criminal was treated, let's all be reminded that he was a criminal.

And finally, I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else who doesn't like being arrested. If you don't like it, get 51% of the population to agree with you and change the law. Until you do that, trespassing stands, disorderly conduct stands, resisting arrest stands. You get enough people on board and you can legalize murder.
 
WuzYoungOnceToo said:
You seem to have completely lost sight of what it was you responded to in the first place, which was:

"Why did the cops not stop when Kerry said 'It's OK...'?"
Nice try - but that dog won't hunt.

My response in post #101 was:
Because the kid challenged the authority of the cops.
I haven't lost track of anything. The issue is that the cops kept on going - even after Kerry said he'd respond to the question. My contention is that they kept on going because their authority had been challenged. You - on the other hand - are just trying to ignore, misdirect and sidestep the issue with some not so clever turns of phrase.

The cops were challenged - it really is that simple. Once Mr. Kerry said it was OK - that he'd answer the question - the whole incident would have gone away if the cops had just stopped what they were doing. The young man would have heard the answer and the situation would have been defused.

Why didn't the cops just stop? Because they were in control mode and that's all that mattered. Someone challenged their authority. They weren't in control and that just doesn't set well with folks who by nature and profession must always remain in control. They had to regain control of that young man - not only is it how they are trained but for 5 cops not to be able to take control of one young man would be a big blow to their proffessional egos in my opinion. Kind'a like the Dallas Cowboys losing to a college football team.

Cops don't like that. They are trained at every level in their careers to take control and exercise authority. Challenging that authority - considering the pedestal they reside on in our society and their agreement that they belong on it - could almost be construed as an insult to the cop . Being in charge becomes a habit. A habit so ingrained that any challenge to it is automatically reacted to with vigor - and force if necessary.

Like I said: Just try telling a cop NO!
 
Update:

It seems two of the officers are now on administrative leave.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297197,00.html

A judge released Andrew Meyer, 21, a student at the University of Florida, from jail Tuesday on his own recognizance. A phone call seeking comment from Meyer’s attorney, Robert Griscti, was not returned.

A video of the incident shows Meyer, a journalism student, trying repeatedly and heatedly to ask Kerry why he conceded the 2004 election after multiple reports of disenfranchisement of black voters and rigged electronic-voting machines.

Click here to watch the video of Meyer's arrest from MyFOXNewYork.

Meyer was asked to leave the microphone after his allotted time was up but he refused. Campus police officers responded and tried to pull Meyer away in a struggle that lasted several seconds.

• Click here for photos.
Related

*
Photo Essays
o College Student Tasered at Kerry Forum

In the clip, officers force Meyer down as the student says he will walk out of the auditorium if officers let him go. They warn him that he will be Tasered — an electric shock weapon used by police to subdue suspects. Meyer can be heard crying out, "Don't Tase me, bro, don't Tase me" before the electric shock is applied. He is heard howling in pain.

As police intervened, Kerry is be heard saying: "That's all right. Let me answer his question." While Meyers was being dragged off, Kerry said, "Unfortunately he's not available to come up here and swear me in as president."

Two campus officers have been placed on paid administrative leave, University of Florida President J. Bernard Machen said in a statement released Tuesday afternoon.

"Administrators and police officials plan to analyze the incident and conduct an internal review and will consider changing protocols in response to this incident, if necessary," Machen said.

Kerry's office released a statement saying he was not aware of the severity of the police response.

"In 37 years of public appearances, through wars, protests and highly emotional events, I have never had a dialogue end this way," he said in the statement. "I believe I could have handled the situation without interruption, but again I do not know what warnings or other exchanges transpired between the young man and the police prior to his barging to the front of the line and their intervention.

"I asked the police to allow me to answer the question and was in the process of answering him when he was taken into custody," Kerry said. "I was not aware that a Taser was used until after I left the building.

"I hope that neither the student nor any of the police were injured," he continued. "I regret enormously that a good healthy discussion was interrupted."

Some experts believe Meyer could claim the use of excessive force in the incident.

“I would find it highly likely that he is going to sue,” said Greg Lukianoff, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, a free-speech group.

Karen Conti, an attorney in Chicago, said Meyer has a good argument for excessive force since officers Tasered him when he was under control.

“I think the police officers were probably embarrassed that this was going on," Conti said. "I think they weren’t expecting anything like this and I think they overreacted."

The videotape could help prove excessive force, Lukianoff said.

“One weapon in combating campus abuses is to show the abuses in the light of day,” Lukianoff said.

But in a juror's eyes, the video might hurt — not help — Meyer’s case, Conti said.

“There’s going to be a lot of jurors who are going to say, ‘You know what? That kid asked for it,'” Conti said.

The university launched an internal investigation and also requested the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to review the incident, seeking all facts before coming to a conclusion.

“It's easy to look at the video and maybe arrive at a conclusion quickly,” said Steve Orlando, a spokesman for the University of Florida.

The Florida chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union called the incident "disturbing" and awaited the conclusion of the investigation.

"People have a reasonable expectation to ask questions in a public setting — even if they are aggressive and some disagree with their position — that is free speech, plain and simple," Howard Simon, ACLU of Florida executive director, said in a statement.

Police are recommending a felony charge for disrupting a public event. Prosecutors will make the call.

Students held a protest rally Tuesday afternoon, walking to the university police department on campus.

Orlando said the university welcomes student free speech, but asks them to do it peacefully.

“Students have every right to go out and express themselves, that’s what they’re doing and they have every right to do it," Orlando said. "We want to accommodate them.”
 
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